Kore Kosmou Continued...

[economicsishard]

n/a

Edited May 31, 2012 by economicsishard

[economicsishard]

More research I've done and more than I need to do:

1. Story of Enoch fits in here somehow, not sure how yet, but I have the mason books on showing the connection

2. Lost or old "freemason charges" matches to this information as well, specificaly the Freemasons called the Scottish Rights; in fact, I read the lost scottish rights and they all refer to the "knowledge of the gods" BEFORE the floods of Noah's time. Weird things is they explain the Floods as not being floods but being the seperation of the spirit world from the physical world, not when adam and eve came into being but when the "books of hermes" were removed from the spirituatl dimension; these old charges also talk about the Kore Kosmou; these charges are from the 1400s to around 1600s I believe; some are in einglish, some in gailic or howevevr you spell that irsish language

3. These same things also tie into the Apron and sash, the crucifixtion of christ and even, sad to say beucase it will seem like I am promoting conspiracy theories, mary magdalene. This is what I have from the books I've got from the 1800s and before.

Let me know what your ideas are so far from reading the Kore Kosmou stuff.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Perhaps you could give a brief overview of what you are doing and trying to do. That might help.

[economicsishard]

Perhaps you could give a brief overview of what you are doing and trying to do. That might help.

Not a problem, I am not trying to do anything really, just presenting informatoin that hasn't been anlyzed yet by anyone that I can find in the church. I've searched all the Mopologist's stuff and they don't seem to have any references to this information, and to me, this information seems fascinating and worthwhile. So, I guess, I am asking myself the following questions:

1. Do these documents have any relationship to what Joseph Smith professed or did in his life?

2. What are the connections between these documents and the Book of Abraham:

3. Am I the only one who thinks that these documents match closely to what us Mormons beleive?

4. What is the relationship between these documents, freemason, the occult, mysticism, Jewish Magic, chrstianity, Mormons, and Temple symbology?

Question 4 does seem very odd, however, the books I have from the 1800s show a connection between all these different areas, except for, of course, Mormonism and temple symbolism. The facinating part is that these books coincide with each other and with mormon doctrines and much of Joesph Smith's activities and history. These were popular topics back in those days, and I thought it would be worth sharing some of these questions and informatino here.

[economicsishard]

1. Do these documents have any relationship to what Joseph Smith professed or did in his life?

So, as you guys know, FARMS posted an article disapproving of Michael Quin's book about mormons and magic. Even though the FARMS author claims that the Michael Quin's argument are not valid because the Hermetica text is in German during Joseph Smith SRs. days, he doesn't address Joseph Smith Jr.'s days. Joseph Smith Jr. knew German. If you search online at maxwell instutute and search for "kore kosmou" you will find only three hits, nothing more, and they don't dive into the text of the Kore Kosmou, in fact, the author didn't realize this text existed in English, even though it obviosuly does.

Here's the quote form the FARMS author who is disparaging Michale Quin.. Funny thing is his proof against Michael Quin reenforces my hypothesis that Joseph Smith could have had access to this Heretic texts. So, by this author's proof of Quin's wrongness, he proves my hypothesis right.

"Quinn claims that I have "deceptively" deleted "contrary evidence" on this issue, noting the publication of esoteric books in the early nineteenth century (see p. 186). But I never claimed that there was absolutely no esoteric thought in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. Quite to the contrary, I explicitly said exactly the opposite: "The profile of the typical eighteenth- and early nineteenth-century European hermeticist was that of a wealthy, highly educated, Latin-reading dilettante who was disaffected from Christianity and idled away his time in small cliques of like-minded hedonists."Why would I be mentioning a typical profile of an early nineteenth-century esotericist if I was trying to prove that there were absolutely no esotericists in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries? Thus, the fact that Quinn provides a dozen titles from that period mentioning Hermes or hermeticism in the title (see pp. 185—86) is hardly a demonstration that my overall position is incorrect. But Quinn's entire argument here ignores the crucial fact, which is that the eighteenth-century hermetic books he mentioned are all in German and French. Thus Quinn's notice that "Joseph Sr. was ten years old at this publication of the [German] Hermetica" is astonishingly irrelevant. Is he claiming Joseph Sr. read and was influenced by this German book? Rather, Quinn's little exercise confirms my position, since none of the works he mentions in this section were in English."

Here's the link to what I just quoted:

http://maxwellinstit...12&num=2&id=364

When Joseph gave his King Follett discourse, he mentioned that he could read German, and that German was a perfect language. It so happens that the entire Hermetica text contains nearly every piece of Mormon doctrine including the crazy ones that the church claims they don't believe any more. The "Hermetica" was a text of different essays or text written in 560 BC in either Greek or Coptic Egyptian. The claim back then was that this document was the "knowledge of the Gods" and that it had been passed down for centuries. Unfortunately, the text of the Hermetica has been adulterated and forged with Greek literature, so its not true to the original story, In the 1400s - 1600s the French translated this text from Greek or copy Egyptian to French and German, and this is where it was then passed on to be AVAILABLE TO JOSEPH SMITH SR. in accordance with the FARMS research article listed above.

The following link provides a quote to where Joseph Smith claims that German is perfect and infallible, right at the same time he was translating the Pearl of Great Price stuff.

http://maxwellinstit...11&num=1&id=295

Smith's claims of the German language are as follows:

"The influence of German and German people seems to have matured in the Prophet Joseph Smith before his death in 1844. He apparently had gained some understanding of the German language, for in his last public speech, given at the funeral of a man named King Follett, he remarked, "I have been reading the German, and find [the Lutheran Bible] to be the most (nearly) correct translation, and to correspond nearest to the revelations which God has given to me for the last fourteen years."¹² In the same sermon, the acknowledged climax of the Prophet's career, he translated into English while reading from the German Bible and added, "I know the text is true. I call upon all you Germans who know that it is true to say, Eye [sic]. (Loud shouts of 'Aye.')"¹³ A few days later Joseph Smith made further reference to this subject: "The Germans are an exalted people. The old German translators are the most nearly correct—most honest of any of the translators.""

Lastly, the Hermetica text contains quite a few pieces and essays, but more telling is the fact that it contains the "Book of the Dead" and other funerary literature. It also contains jewish magic and jewish magic rituals with instructions. So, this also matches Joseph Smith's interest in ritualistic undertakings in the Temple and its union with Pearl of Great Price. To read the Portion of the Hermetica that I am talking about here is the link:

http://www.sacred-te...y/woe/index.htm

It contains the following chapters:

Title Page

Introduction

Contents

Chapter I: The Story of Egypt

Chapter II: Religion of Ancient Egypt

Chapter III: The Ptah-Hotep And The Ke'gemni: The Oldest Books In The World <-- The OLDEST book ever found, keep in mind this text linked is from like 1906, so perhaps older books have been found since then

Chapter IV: The Book of the Dead <--- Obvious

Chapter V: Hermes Trismegistus <-Kore Kosmou or "The Virgin of the World"

Chapter VI: Egyptian Magic

Chapter VII: The Vision of Hermes <--- VERY VERY Similar to Book of Moses, strikingly similar

Chapter VIII: The Story of the Book of Thoth <-- Book was never found, supposed the book that Hermes took with him to the grave, The book remained in the "spirit realm" before flood

When you search this book, you will notice that Chapter three is considered to archeologists to be the oldest book ever found by archeologists. This is important because it would have amazed Joseph Smith into thinking that this is the "Solomon key" to God's knowledge, as the Freemasons suggest. Also the Last Chapter, "The Book of Thoth" was supposedly an astrology based literature with knowledge of Tarot, alchemy, astrology, and mystical and esoteric Christianity. The Book of Thoth was "rewritten" so to speak by Alister Crowley, and I am sure you know who Alister Crowley is. Soon after Alister published this book, he had a "vision" of Joseph Smith. I wish this were a joke, but its no joke, Google search Alister Crowley and Joseph Smith together.

I am not going to argue about Joseph Smith right now, I am only trying to establish where the book may have been during his days.

Edited May 30, 2012 by economicsishard

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Economicsishard,

I think you are highly over estimating Joseph Smith's German abilities. From what I have read, there is no evidence he had more than what I would posit as a half semester of a german college course. Enough to read parts of the Bible, but not without a lexicon to lean upon. To then take his knowledge and be able tor ead a complex hermeticla text is highly unlikely.

[selek1]

Here's the quote form the FARMS author who is disparaging Michale Quin.. Funny thing is his proof against Michael Quin reenforces my hypothesis that Joseph Smith could have had access to this Heretic texts. So, by this author's proof of Quin's wrongness, he proves my hypothesis right.

Does this strike anyone else as a variation on the theme that "the utter lack of evidence is the surest proof that the conspiracy exists"?

Having followed her screed through two threads now, I am struck by the rapidity with which economicsishard's mania is descending into tin-foil-hat territory.

She admits that she doesn't really have a clue about any possible links between these materials, Joseph Smith, Masonry, and Mormon theology- but she is absolutely certain that the rebuttal Quinn suffered proves her theory correct- despite the casual and exhaustive means by which she misuses the sources she cites.

The logic in this is akin to: "Science has proven that the Earth is not flat, therefore this proves my theory that the world exists on the back of a turtle supported by four elephants".

Edited May 30, 2012 by selek1

[blackstrap]

I am continually amazed that it is accepted by some that any book published before 1844 and written in any one of 4 languages ,was obviously available to Joseph or one of his close relatives.He had the time and resources to thoroughly study such books and was heavily influenced by them.

[selek1]

I think you are highly over estimating Joseph Smith's German abilities. From what I have read, there is no evidence he had more than what I would posit as a half semester of a german college course. Enough to read parts of the Bible, but not without a lexicon to lean upon. To then take his knowledge and be able tor ead a complex hermeticla text is highly unlikely.

This is especially true when one considers that Joseph's "German abilities" were apparently developed relatively late in his life- and well after the theology which economicsishard claims were dependent upon those abilities.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Now, to be honest, the book itself sounds absolutely fascinating. I love reading hermetical literature, Masonic thought, etc! But... while parallels may exist, I don't see it as a major contrinuting factor to anything in the restored gospel.

[mfbukowski]

I apologize for being uncharitable toward economicsishard on the other thread.

I think perhaps there is another dynamic happening here which I did not understand earlier and is now becoming clearer. Many of the posts were erased from the earlier thread and were they not, perhaps the nature of the problem might have been clear earlier.

Edited May 31, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Maidservant]

Do those books still exist that are referred to--the Instructions of Ptah-hotep? And are they still considered to have the age mentioned in this instance (~4000 B.C.E?)? And if yes on what basis is that age taken?

[Maidservant]

Reminds me a lot of the writings the Samurais used to make to give on to their sons and households after their death.

[economicsishard]

I apologize for being uncharitable toward economicsishard on the other thread.

I think perhaps there is another dynamic happening here which I did not understand earlier and is now becoming clearer. Many of the posts were erased from the earlier thread and were they not, perhaps the nature of the problem might have been clear earlier.

Not a problem, I've been on the internets long enough to understand that respect is a scarce resource. Also, I am not so sure that there is "another dynamic" as you put it; this of course assumes that you meant that I was either stupid or insane or a troll. I assure you that I am 100% rational, truth be told however, I do have ADHD to an extreme degree so I do become very very excited when I find something interesting. Anway, most of my posts were erased from the "Dan" thread. They were erased because I accidently took over his thread thereby violating forum rules. The posts you missed were merely quotes from the Hermetic text "Kose Kosmou" wherein in explained the relationship between the "Kose Kosmou", "Vision of Heremes", "Book of the Dead", "Book of Abraham", and "Book of Moses".While I am new to this forum, I am not new to Mormonism, I am a devout member myself just inquiring about a few curiosities I've come across recently. I have in my posseesion over 75,000 Hermetic, occult, mystical, freemason, Jewish magic, and christianity texts from the years 1AD to the late 1800s. These are mostly original texts that I've scanned to digital copies. Everytime I travel, I'll scan additional books for my collection and each day while on the internet, I find additional books and volumes that I am missing. I am becoming well versed in the occult, not for practice, but for painting a clear picture at "possible influcences" in Josph Smith's time.

I apologize in advance for any definitive arguments that I make for my hypothetical connections, I am not prroposing that Joseph Smith is a liar or a fraud, I am merely presenting novel and interesting informatnio that may or may not have already been considered. So far my experience on this board has been wonderful, I can see that Dan Peterson demans quite a bit of respect because he has around three or four fainbois who have already chastized my everything from punctuation, grammar, spastic writing style, endless postings, and definitive statements. I always find it fascinating that joining a forum is like joining a wolf pack. I've noticed that this is especially true of selek1.

Because of this, I want to apologize for continuing to breath now, and into the forseeable future. This apologiy goes out to selek1. I will try harder to expel myself from existence, its just when I do, I end up short of breath and then involutarily begin breathing.

Now that I have that out of the way, the Kore Kosmou is an interesting text in that it explains the creation from beggining to end, the afterlirfe, the council of Gods, the fall of man, mans need for a savior, a heavenly mother and father, and more. There are specific connections between Kose Kosmou and all Heremtic texts to both exotericism and esotericism within both Scottish and English Freemason sects or groups. The British, or "red-covered" masons differed from the "blue-covered" masons not only in their use of colored embroideries and symbols but also in their use of rituals, tokens, and signs. For exmample, (no Mormon Temple secrets, I promise) the "red-covered" masons from the English charges participated, at least a few groups within the Red-covered masonic classification, participated in Blood rites and "dark rites": Kose Kosmou is the document that the Freemasons have used over the centuries to justify their "secret preisthood" authority and knowledge of the Gods. By the way, blood rites in this instance refers to the following (excerpt from English Freemasonry 1808 Part 1): "To these several points I solemnly swear to observe, without evasion, equivocation or mental reservation of any kind, under no less a penalty than to have my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by the root, and my body buried in teh sand of the sea at low water ..."

The Red-covered masons, that is the ones of "Luciferian and Satanist" sects from the early 1800s were also accused of "putting their best foot forward" to demonstrate their concern for public welfare when in fact their concern was only for their private sect; as a guise, they would use christianity as their face to the public. (I am not implying sattanism or anything else bad with Mormons or Joseph Smith) These same sects also incorporated "black rites" of Hermeticism, the seal of the "blazing star" or other resprsentaions of Sothis, they incorporated the same symbols used on the SLC Temple such as the seal of the moon, the sun, the stars, and the upside down pentagram. Furthermore, BOTH blue and red masonic sects professed to have ancient knowledge of "before the flood" that refers to Hermes and/or Enoch (no, I am not saying that Hermes and Enoch are the same person, they are two different individuals). Hermes had the knowledge of the creation and afterlife, and Enoch supposedly created language and writing. It was after the flood that, supposedly, Hermes writings were lost; not lost forever but removed from the earlthly realm into the spirit realm on earth. From this time forward, the story of creation had been passed on to a "chosen few". In 600 BC, around that time at least, the Greeks began writing and documenting these ancient miysteriies including the "black rites" and esoteric ritualis involving both Jewish magic and ancient egyptian symbolism and rituals.

I've already presented my questions I wish to answer in the third post in this thread. I know that many of you have already declined to play the "lets think thorugh this game". but I am hopeful that someone else here on the board is interested in having a conversation about this information so that we may all learn a thing or two about history and perhaps get a better understanding about the foundations of all religious belief.

Lastly, selek1, in my previous post, I was not agreeing with Michael Quinn, I was agreeing with the author who critiqued Michael Quinn's book. I am not a scholar of religion nor do I pretend to be, for this reason I came to these forums to find, perhaps, others who may be interested in searching schools of thought that were avialabe during Joseph Smith's days. Also, I was not aware that the terminology "Mopologist" is a bad word here, so I apologize for using it. I will refer to Mormon Apologists as "Mormon Scholars". I am not here to disprove or debunk Mormonism, that is a fruitless effort that has no benefit to anyone. I am a member of the LDS church, I have quite a bit of education in math, physics, philosohpy, and economics, but nothing in religion or history. I am willing to learn, please be patient. As for Dan Peterson, yes, on other forums I've not treated Dan very well, and I apologize for my behavior. As I promised earlier, on this forum I will act as an adult with respect and dignity.

Thanks

Edited May 31, 2012 by economicsishard

[economicsishard]

Reminds me a lot of the writings the Samurais used to make to give on to their sons and households after their death.

Yeah, this is the mystery that I am wishing to dive into. It so happens that the freemasons kept great records of the history behind this text, and before the freemasons, the masons kept this history and before these "stone guild masons" the french and before the french, the catholic church suppoosedly had these documents written in latin, and then before the catholic church had them the Greeks or Romans had them in either coptic egyptian or greek; i can't seem to find which language it was. The documents are then supposedlyh traceable to 600BC. This is strange only beucase I've seen some new rogue research that suggests Abraham, and maybe even Adam and Eve, might have lived in 600BC; however, since this is not the accepted belief, I threw this out the window. Then reading through more 19th century Hermetica translations just this afternoon, I found out that these "stories" had been written on stone, according to Freemasonic legends, and in fact the naghamani scrolls found in mid 20th century verify this story that the mysteries of Hermes were etched in stone. Interestingly enough, in many of the freemason texts that I have, the books linclude huge drawings of a large "emerald stone" said to be the knowledge of herems. Due to the cryptic nature of the Freemanons, their pictures are loaded with symbolism and secrets, but this stone is a dead give away match to the gnostic teachings in naghamani scrolls. Perhaps this is a clue that such a stone may exist, who knows, but the Hermetic texts are very "telling" in that they match many of the mormon doctrines and beliefes that we hold ture to our hearts. Also, keep in mind these texts are riddled with problems due to the Greeks inserting their own versions of stories such as references to Zues and other greek gods. Also, some scholars have said that this text has no evidence of "jewish influence." While this may mean to some folks that the text is a hoax from the Greeks, what if instead the text pre-datees the Jews? Interesting, I dont' know the answers, but I am looking.

The PDF file for the Kore Kosmou, in an easier to read format, can be found here:

Kore Kosmou.pdf

Edited May 31, 2012 by economicsishard

[Stargazer]

I apologize for being uncharitable toward economicsishard on the other thread.

I think perhaps there is another dynamic happening here which I did not understand earlier and is now becoming clearer. Many of the posts were erased from the earlier thread and were they not, perhaps the nature of the problem might have been clear earlier.

I skimmed through them before they were culled from the thread, and, I am sorry to report to you that I don't think you missed much. I don't wish to be too harsh here, but it didn't look to me as if what he/she/it was trying to say had anything to do with a single topic -- they were all over the map, ranging from a mathematical disquisition on computational finance that would have made your head spin, to ramblings on about why DCP was a fulminating blowhard -- not in so many words, of course. Oh, yeah, and I think hermeneutics was in there somewhere, too. As if someone had barfed Wikipedia all over the place.

Post #4 of this thread pretty much says it all: "...I am not trying to do anything really...".

And with that I will bow out and let more patient people deal with the train wreck.

No offense intended (well, not much, anyway), but economicsishard you need to learn to FOCUS and stop sounding like a self-important, self-described, pseudo-polymath.

Oh, and have a nice day!

[economicsishard]

I skimmed through them before they were culled from the thread, and, I am sorry to report to you that I don't think you missed much. I don't wish to be too harsh here, but it didn't look to me as if what he/she/it was trying to say had anything to do with a single topic -- they were all over the map, ranging from a mathematical disquisition on computational finance that would have made your head spin, to ramblings on about why DCP was a fulminating blowhard -- not in so many words, of course. Oh, yeah, and I think hermeneutics was in there somewhere, too. As if someone had barfed Wikipedia all over the place.

Post #4 of this thread pretty much says it all: "...I am not trying to do anything really...".

And with that I will bow out and let more patient people deal with the train wreck.

No offense intended (well, not much, anyway), but economicsishard you need to learn to FOCUS and stop sounding like a self-important, self-described, pseudo-polymath.

Oh, and have a nice day!

No offense taken, weren't we going to review lagrangian optimization in astrophysics later though? You mentioned something to me something along those lines earlier today? Let me know, I'd love to talk to you about the calculus of the cosmos. Also, computational finance is the study of finance, but at at a very high level. Only 5 schools have PDH degrees offered in this are of study. Computational finance graduates with PHDs are the ones the media calls the "high-frequency financial derivatives traders" who they blame for crashing wall street with their monstrous equations. I tell you this becuase you asked earlier, and you have a nice night as well.

Edited May 31, 2012 by economicsishard

[volgadon]

I am not a scholar of religion nor do I pretend to be

Just a possesor of "over 75,000 Hermetic, occult, mystical, freemason, Jewish magic, and christianity texts from the years 1AD to the late 1800s. These are mostly original texts that I've scanned to digital copies. Everytime I travel, I'll scan additional books for my collection and each day while on the internet, I find additional books and volumes that I am missing. I am becoming well versed in the occult, not for practice, but for painting a clear picture at "possible influcences" in Josph Smith's time." Right?

[economicsishard]

Thats right, I have them on my hard drive its about 30 or so gigabytes, I've collected them over the years while in my PHD study program and just last month I was able to spend some time going over them. So, yes, I am not a religious expert, but I am very ineterested to learn.

[selek1]

I believe

is an accurate (if slightly more coherent) summary of economicsishard's tenure here.

[economicsishard]

If you'd like these texts for yourself, you can down load a chunk of around 9,000 of them through a large file that was swimming around the internet a few months back. I don't remember where I saw it, but it contained around 10 gigabytes worth of Freemason texts from around 1750 to late 1800s.

[economicsishard]

I believe

is an accurate (if slightly more coherent) summary of economicsishard's tenure here.

Hahaha, you have no idea, this is why I had pursued a PHD, and will most likely end up doing another one, I just can't stop moving and thinking; but in the mean time, I'll be spending time trying to decipher the Freemaons crytic texts. At this point, I think I might be alone on my interest of this subject, perhaps this is the product of being on adderall for the last 15 years, we shall see.

[economicsishard]

In fact, here is a listing of some of my books from my harddrive

masonry files.txt

[mfbukowski]

Because of this, I want to apologize for continuing to breath now, and into the forseeable future. This apologiy goes out to selek1. I will try harder to expel myself from existence, its just when I do, I end up short of breath and then involutarily begin breathing.

I think maybe that you are unaware that there are some here who are experts in these fields, but definitely keep breathing, ok? It's an important thing to do.

Just relax and slow down a bit, ok? Adderall is heavy stuff which can lead to neurological changes over an extended period of usage, and indeed it has not been around long enough to really know what these long-term changes can be. Just be careful.

Hahaha, you have no idea, this is why I had pursued a PHD, and will most likely end up doing another one, I just can't stop moving and thinking; but in the mean time, I'll be spending time trying to decipher the Freemaons crytic texts. At this point, I think I might be alone on my interest of this subject, perhaps this is the product of being on adderall for the last 15 years, we shall see.

Edited May 31, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Stargazer]

No offense taken, weren't we going to review lagrangian optimization in astrophysics later though? You mentioned something to me something along those lines earlier today? Let me know, I'd love to talk to you about the calculus of the cosmos. Also, computational finance is the study of finance, but at at a very high level. Only 5 schools have PDH degrees offered in this are of study. Computational finance graduates with PHDs are the ones the media calls the "high-frequency financial derivatives traders" who they blame for crashing wall street with their monstrous equations. I tell you this becuase you asked earlier, and you have a nice night as well.

I was thinking more along the lines of certain problems in stellar evolution, such as Type II supernovae and how soon Eta Carinae is going to blow its nut. I've also been fascinated recently with the efforts to identify members of the original nebula out of which our sun coalesced, since a large number of them are bound to be still fairly close by (astronomically speaking at any rate), and how they can be identified by their metallicities, which is theorized to be pretty close to our sun's. One aspect of this is the identification (if possible) of the supernova(e) that provided the solar system's initial dose of heavy elements, and the approximate times of their ignitions -- it occurred to me recently that there may be some chronological discrepancies between the actual and theorized age of the solar system, because while we think we know how old the sun is based on its H/He ratio (which is confirmed incidentally by radiometric dating of long-half-life isotopes), we don't actually know how much helium the sun actually started with! Assuming that there was only a negligible amount is perhaps by Occam's razor the best course, but it must be recognized that even the Razor is only to be used as a heuristic (general guiding rule or an observation) to guide scientists in the development of theoretical models rather than as an arbiter between models. In short, assuming negligible helium in the original birth nebula of the sun is a convenience only, and subject to falsification. The solar system may not be 5 billion years old after all, but perhaps only 3 -- depending upon just how much heavy material was gifted to it by the supernova(e) that provided us with our gold and uranium.

But I digress.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Stargazer