An Acceptable Prejudice?

[Darren10]

I just came across this post via a news/political site I frequent. The author of the post, Thomas C. Terry, expresses confusion regarding prejudice forwarded towards the LDS faith from the world of academics. Terry was recently employed to teach in the Idaho State University in Pocatello, ID and his observations of Mormons is as follows:

So what, exactly, is so awful about being Mormon?

Utah is about 72 percent Mormon, so it's a pretty good representation of Mormonism. Among the 50 states, Utah has the lowest child poverty rate, the lowest teen pregnancy rate, the third-lowest abortion rate, the third-highest high school graduate rate at 94 percent, the highest scores on Advanced Placement exams, fewest births to unwed mothers (also the highest overall birthrate), lowest cancer rate, lowest smoking rate, lowest per capita rate of alcohol use, and, arguably, the most comprehensive and universal state health insurance system in the U.S.

Furthermore, Mormons as a group have the lowest rates of violence and depression among religious groups, are seven times less likely to commit suicide (if active church members), and have the lowest divorce rates of any social-religious group. Sixty-five percent of Utah residents have personal computers, the highest penetration rate in the country. Crime has decreased in the state of Utah by anywhere from 15-18 percent over the past 10 years.

Mormon women are more likely to be employed in professional occupations than Catholic or Protestant women (similar to Jewish women) and more likely to graduate from college than Catholic or Protestant women (but less than Jewish women). [Last part left out for this site].

As for the Mormons themselves as his immediate neighbors, Terry writes:

When I first moved to Pocatello, I lived in a cul de sac and seven of my nine neighbors belonged to the LDS Church. Nobody tried to convert me. They invited me to church picnics – no pressure. My next-door neighbor spent nearly two hours one weekday morning (he was late to work) helping me restore my snow blower to life after five years in the humid South. Another helped flush and fix my sprinkler system. A third returned my dogs after they’d escaped. Several just showed up with family members to help me move in. A fourth one tossed me the keys to his Cadillac after the transmission in my Suburban disassembled on my driveway. "Bring it back when you don’t need it anymore," he said.

Read the full article HERE.

I think this accurately reflects how Mormons believe they should live and I'm very glad Thomas C. Terry has had these experiences.

I would be interested in any insights as to how Mormons should live their lives and in any reactions to Terry's experiences.

[selek1]

Mormons are targeted for a variety of reasons.

The greatest (in my opinion) is envy.

People envy our success....

People envy our enthusiasm....

People envy our self-assurance....

People envy our unity....

People envy our drive....

People envy our determination....

People envy our assurance- not only for this life, but for the life to come....

Edited May 29, 2012 by selek1

[Darren10]

I think envy is one reason Mormons are targeted. I'd like to comment on that but first let me say that I also think that the unique LDS doctrines is also a reason for being targeted. Mormonism definitely holds to teachings which are quite strange to those outside the mainstream religious and secular mold of thinking. Those who stand out ofthe mainstream are targeted by others almost naturally.

As forthe envy, I think the goodness achieved by the LDS you showed - success, enthusiasm, unity, etc - is a result in admonishing the LDS to be good and striving *to be like* Jesus. Doing such has never been easy in human history. Such will always be the target of ridicule, particularly by those who reguard themselves as knowing better. Terry's article seems much more meek ad humble than those who ridicule thus he's much more able to present the fruits of Mormonism than the academics which surround him.

[Vance]

The Devil knows which entity really is his biggest enemy and he agitates accordingly.

[Deborah]

It is ironic that Mormons live so successfully in the world yet somehow our religious beliefs make us "strange." You would think that people would deduce that our religious beliefs really don't make us so different we can't live normal, successful lives and that we do fit in with the community.

[Buzzard]

I would like to read the study that determined that Mormon women were more "satisfied" in their marital relations than the general population.

[ncfarmerjoe]

may i offer a little different view here from a recent East Coast convert to LDS at the age of 45 and let me give a brief background........i never was a member of any other Church, but i attended a Southern Baptist Church most of my childhood up to graduating HS. then i rarely went back there, and occasionally attended other denominations of mostly Protestant faith. i lost my Mother in early '08 and came to the realization that if i ever wanted to see her again....i needed to educate myself cause the Church's i had attended all my life never made any sense to me and obviously i hadn't paid enough attention? but even recently, i could not understand how or what they where basing all this "faith" on.....it was either Heaven or Hell and a whole lot of nothing in between! we live in a close farming community and are 5th Gen. farmers ourselves so i have had many conversations with neighbors over how they acquired their faith in "our" local Church?

so after trying to learn the Bible & it's history for a coupla years......things just began to fall into place for me & the LDS theology.....and after 1.5 years of investigation of the LDS Church on my own, i was ready to join.

now, realizing what a small part of the LDS community the Southeast/Mid Atlantic represents, this view i assume also is maybe of a smaller % of non LDS Church go'ers nationwide?

from this part of the Country.....most people i know and have known most of my life haven't really a clue as to what LDS theology/doctrines contain? or if they do have an inkling of LDS doctrine.....it is a convoluted one. they have been conditioned over so many years now to understand that Mormon's are not Christian and that's all they really need to know on the subject? i have received some really weird questions, and also some very ignorant statements pertaining to my chosen faith. i can only imagine what some of my Church members have lived through in their lives here?

and what is even more amazing than that is, how little "lifetime" Church go'ers actually know about the Bible's life history and how the theology their Church teaches came about? but i guess i am the weird one, cause they all believe alike & i am the one who never did??? :-)

joe

[selek1]

Joe,

My own journey was not terribly disimilar to your own. I was raised Southern Baptist, and most of my Southern neighbors were content to lump the minor Mormon population into the category "Not Us"- and behave accordingly.

What information they did have was invariably badly garbled- but it was sufficient to alienate the Mormons from "the rest of us" and thus to satisfy the unquestioned (and undeserved) sense of sectarian superiority.

[ncfarmerjoe]

thanks for you thoughts! joe

[Cobalt-70]

Mormons are targeted for a variety of reasons.

The greatest (in my opinion) is envy.

I don't think it has anything to do with envy. That's how we Mormons flatter ourselves, and that outlook leads to pride, and doesn't help us either to proselyte or to make connections with those people with the prejudice. Mormons do have enviable statistical averages, but anyone who ascribes that to envy just doesn't know a lot of non-Mormons. The more we go around telling ourselves that we are better than everybody else, the more prejudice against us we will see.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[mrmandias]

I would like to read the study that determined that Mormon women were more "satisfied" in their marital relations than the general population.

I've seen a few studies like this but they all relied on self-reporting. How accurate they are nobody knows.

[Darren10]

things just began to fall into place for me & the LDS theology.....and after 1.5 years of investigation of the LDS Church on my own, i was ready to join.

That aspect of your story is very similar to that of my father's conversion to the LDS faith. He investigated for about a year and when he took the missionary discussions, he was quite ready to join. All he had to do were the motions.

Thank you for sharing your story.

[Darren10]

It is ironic that Mormons live so successfully in the world yet somehow our religious beliefs make us "strange." You would think that people would deduce that our religious beliefs really don't make us so different we can't live normal, successful lives and that we do fit in with the community.

That plus you figure that others may make the connection of Mormons being successful with what they believe.

[Darren10]

I would like to read the study that determined that Mormon women were more "satisfied" in their marital relations than the general population.

Intellectually-speaking, that does sound like an interesting study.

[selek1]

I don't think it has anything to do with envy.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

That's how what we Mormons flatter ourselves

"We Mormons"! Good one!

Mormons do have enviable statistical averages, but anyone who ascribes that to envy just doesn't know a lot of non-Mormons.

If you're arguing that my observations and opinions are subjective, I agree. If you are arguing that I am somehow sheltered or ignorant, nothing could be farther from the truth.

Nor was I arguing about the feelings of any individual (even if they were to admit to so crass an emotion as envy). I was talking about general concepts.

The devil envies us (and resents us) for our salvation and our physical bodies. He envies (and resents) our loyalty to Heavenly Father and our eternal potential- a potential which he has rejected.

The faithless envy us for our faith- for our assurance and commitment in a world which outwardly rejects such concepts, yet hungers for them as a starving man for a crust of bread.

Those without the Priesthood envy us for the authority and confidence we possess in proclaiming the truth to a fallen world.

The godless envy us in that we know our Lord and Master while they grope amongst the fads and idols of the day.

The ministers and priestcraft of Babylon envy us in that their followers abandon them in favor of the truths we offer.

The materialists envy us in that they see the Church as wealthy and powerful and covet those things for themselves.

The uncertain envy us our certitude.

The fractured envy us our unity.

The slothful envy us our industry.

The indolent envy us our wealth.

The more we go around telling ourselves that we are better than everybody else, the more prejudice against us we will see.

And yet what is envy except prejudice?

Is not he who sees the wealthy man and tells himself "This man does not deserve his riches" guilty of prejudice?

You accuse me (ever so indirectly) of pride- but that is false on a number of counts.

None of these things is inherent in any individual- therefore no man should boast.

All are the outgrowth of a lifestyle of honesty, integrity, industry, and fidelity.

We do not see these things as endemic to ourselves, but rather as the fruits of service to our Lord. Pride is not an issue because we have no cause to boast in our own strength- but only to give glory to our Lord.

Nor do we hoard these things unto ourselves, but invite all to partake of the gifts we have been offered.

Edited May 30, 2012 by selek1

[BCSpace]

I think people are often embarrassed when Mormons are around. It's almost as if our mere presence is enough to call society to repentance. Which means of course that we need to live up to our reputation.

[Darren10]

I think people are often embarrassed when Mormons are around. It's almost as if our mere presence is enough to call society to repentance. Which means of course that we need to live up to our reputation.

And may we do so humbly and in the spirit of serving our Lord and others.

[Storm Rider]

I seldom agree with cobalt on anything, but there is something about what he said above that does resonate with me. Although the LDS people have an honorable history and presence in their respective communities, we should never stand so firmly on this reputation that it prevents us from seeing the goodness, the beauty, and the true discipleship found among other churches and religions.

If there are those that envy us then it is their problem and has nothing to do with us. If we admired by others it has nothing to do with us. Our actions, our thoughts, our words, and our interactions with others has everything to do with us. We cannot control what others think or what happens to us individually; we can only control how we act/react when trials occur, when we are persecuted, and when hard times nearly overwhelm us.

How often I fail to meet the standard of our Master. I anger too quickly, I wish for too quickly a recompense to those that are evil, dishonest, and actively work to destroy the Church. In brief, I am far too impatient. One day I hope to be one that is prepared to quickly turn the other cheek; to wash the feet of the wicked; and to love my enemies. For now, that day is distant.

[The Nehor]

It is ironic that Mormons live so successfully in the world yet somehow our religious beliefs make us "strange." You would think that people would deduce that our religious beliefs really don't make us so different we can't live normal, successful lives and that we do fit in with the community.

My main concern is that we can live so successfully in the world when the scriptures seem to show that true saints rarely can.

[The Nehor]

Is not he who sees the wealthy man and tells himself "This man does not deserve his riches" guilty of prejudice?

No, sounds more like he is a student of Jacob and King Benjamin.

Edited May 30, 2012 by The Nehor

[Darren10]

No, sounds more like he is a student of Jacob and King Benjamin.

Not even close. Nowhere do Jacob or King Benjamin say that the rich man doesn't "deserve" his riches. In fact ,I do believe it is Jacob who spoke about God blessing one with riches if that is what the individual seeks AND has obtained a hope in Christ so that the individual would seek to do good with his riches. Imparting of one's substanance is an act of serving God; not and act of unburdening oneself from things he does not "deserve". There is no Book of Mormon condemnation of the rich just for being rich that I am aware. All Book of Mormon adonishment to impart of one's wealth to help others in the service of God is to do so voluntarily and individually. This necessitates an individual acceptence of God and His ways.

[The Nehor]

Not even close. Nowhere do Jacob or King Benjamin say that the rich man doesn't "deserve" his riches.

King Benjamin calls us all beggars to teach us not to deny the beggar. Unless you want to argue that beggars 'deserve' hand-outs the rich don't 'deserve' their riches.

In fact ,I do believe it is Jacob who spoke about God blessing one with riches if that is what the individual seeks AND has obtained a hope in Christ so that the individual would seek to do good with his riches.

I take Jacob's meaning to be an imperative command. "If you do seek riches you will seek them to do good" (paraphrased) implying you should not seek them for any other reason. I do not see it as a promise that God will universally bless you with riches because you seek them and are faithful. That would contradict the parable of the 12 Sons in the D&C:

"And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself. For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just? Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine."

God outright admits here that your wealth is an indicator of how well you serve Him. He basically admits that he created the world unfairly and expects us to fix it.

Imparting of one's substanance is an act of serving God; not and act of unburdening oneself from things he does not "deserve".

We don't 'deserve' anything. I thought that was implicit in the whole 'man being nothing' teaching.

There is no Book of Mormon condemnation of the rich just for being rich that I am aware. All Book of Mormon adonishment to impart of one's wealth to help others in the service of God is to do so voluntarily and individually. This necessitates an individual acceptence of God and His ways.

This is a modern conservative reading of the Book of Mormon forced onto the text. The prophets in the Book of Mormon never mention this distinction. In fact when the people of Limhi humbled themselves before God they the king issued this decree:

"Now there was a great number of women, more than there was of men; therefore king Limhi commanded that every man should impart to the support of the widows and their children, that they might not perish with hunger; and this they did because of the greatness of their number that had been slain."

This means that.......people humbling themselves before God enacted........

GOVERNMENT WELFARE!?!?!?!?!??!?!

[Deborah]

My main concern is that we can live so successfully in the world when the scriptures seem to show that true saints rarely can.

Really? Abraham was wealthy and powerful in his time. David while he was righteous became a powerful leader. Even the early saints had a period of prosperity before the trek west. I don't see the scriptures indicating that true saints can't live successfully in the world as long as they remember the Lord. When the people fail to live successfully it's because they start disobeying the prophets.

[Senator]

David while he was righteous became a powerful leader.

Kind David vs. King Benjamin

Now that would make an interesting comparison study!

[Darren10]

King Benjamin calls us all beggars to teach us not to deny the beggar. Unless you want to argue that beggars 'deserve' hand-outs the rich don't 'deserve' their riches.

Imparting of one's substance does not mean that one does not "deserve" the substance he or she has. If one gets rich, of course he may 'deserve" his riches. This does not mean that he has a "right" not to use it for good. He may have a legal right to keep it as far as I'm concerned but not necessarily a moral one. The sum of your argument is that to be morally good, government must enact redistribution. I disagree and more poignantly, there is no Book of Mormon teaching which says anything of the sort. Not even King Benjamin advocated government redistributing but that people as individuals whose faith is in Christ, would do so:

12 I say unto you that as I have been suffered to ^aspend my days in your service, even up to this time, and have not sought ^bgold nor silver nor any manner of riches of you;

13 Neither have I suffered that ye should be confined in dungeons, nor that ye should make slaves one of another, nor that ye should murder, or plunder, or steal, or commit adultery; nor even have I suffered that ye should commit any manner of wickedness, and have taught you that ye should keep the commandments of the Lord, in all things which he hath commanded you—

14 And even I, myself, have ^alabored with mine own ^bhands that I might serve you, and that ye should not be ^claden with taxes, and that there should nothing come upon you which was grievous to be borne—and of all these things which I have spoken, ye yourselves are witnesses this day.

(Mosiah 2 - Bold mine) notice that he specifies no force of the state in his admonishment upon the people. Try finding that by not paying your taxes.

And to him this included the rich and the poor:

24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I ^agive not because I ^bhave not, but if I had I would ^cgive.

25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are ^acondemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.

(Mosiah 4).

As you yourself pointed out, we are *all* "beggars" before God. Therefore, the poor must impart of their own substance to help others, even the rich. Both the rich and the poor were expected to do their part under King Benjamin's teachings.

I take Jacob's meaning to be an imperative command. "If you do seek riches you will seek them to do good" (paraphrased) implying you should not seek them for any other reason. I do not see it as a promise that God will universally bless you with riches because you seek them and are faithful. That would contradict the parable of the 12 Sons in the D&C:

"And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself. For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just? Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine."

There's no indication of government being used to force equality. This is a morality taught to individuals.

God outright admits here that your wealth is an indicator of how well you serve Him. He basically admits that he created the world unfairly and expects us to fix it.

We don't 'deserve' anything. I thought that was implicit in the whole 'man being nothing' teaching.

man is nothing when he does not obey God for even the dust of the earth obeys God's will. Children of God, known on earth as mankind is the only creature capable to choose to disobey God. When man does that he is nothing for all other creatures and al other things created obdey God's will. Man is also the only creatuee capable of exaltation through reprentence and through the blood of the Lamb.

This is a modern conservative reading of the Book of Mormon forced onto the text. The prophets in the Book of Mormon never mention this distinction. In fact when the people of Limhi humbled themselves before God they the king issued this decree:

"Now there was a great number of women, more than there was of men; therefore king Limhi commanded that every man should impart to the support of the widows and their children, that they might not perish with hunger; and this they did because of the greatness of their number that had been slain."

This means that.......people humbling themselves before God enacted........

GOVERNMENT WELFARE!?!?!?!?!??!?!

This is not welfare, nor is it unconservative. This is akin to the modern-day veteran's system which I strongly support. Compensating people (and their loved ones) for having served their country is a moral good. It is based upon individuals who did their job for their country and receive their compensation. There hardly a conservative alive who opposes this. Limhi's requirement to take care of the widow is not based upon their being poor and therefore have some sort of right to recieve other people's wealth. This is based uponthe fact that their husbands performed a service to the country and therefore stand in just need for compensation. Yes, like all policy, thisi s based upon morality. My main point is that Limhi's "goverment welfare" is not based upon taking from the rich and giving it to the poor. It's based upon doing a job and getting paid for it.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Darren10