Intellect V ..... Something Other

[tana]

From what I can tell, the LDS God has decided faith is the best identifier of a persons worth. He therefor provides little physical evidence for ones intellect, relying on the 'Holy Ghost' to testify to us for our witness. But.....Doesn't one still have to use ones intellect to understand what the promptings are? If I'm getting a certain feeling while reading the Book of Mormon, I still have to use my intellect to figure out the connection. The feeling could be anything.

What seems confusing is that god wants to provide some evidence, but not too much.....and based on the individual also. For instance, for our intellect he provides witnesses to the plates, but not the plates themselves as that would be too much.

God must have a pretty sophisticated equation figured out to be able to supply a fixed amount of tactile evidence to the many, that somehow just only doesn't exceed the personal limit of the one.

My real question tho is, if god is sending us the holy ghost as evidence.....Wouldn't that be considered too much evidence? I mean, how do you have faith if you know the church is true because God sent you the HG.?

If I use my intellect and (blindly?) trust in the teaching of my fathers, god will then, because of that- send me evidence via the HG. to.....give me a feeling that I must decipher with my intellect? -Or-somehow convincingly talk to my mind? But, for god to give me irrefutable evidence by talking to my mind through the HG, wouldn't that be considered too much evidence?.....which makes the whole concept of faith inconsequential. Whereas, if he is just sending promptings that I must decipher, then I can never be held accountable as it is all guesswork.

[thesometimesaint]

tana:

We are to live by faith. That doesn't mean a blind faith. We are to test Gods' word to see for ourselves how it works in our lives.

[tana]

tana:

We are to live by faith. That doesn't mean a blind faith. We are to test Gods' word to see for ourselves how it works in our lives.

I'm trying to define more clearly what exactly is 'faith'. If god is sending us a proof positive message to our minds, then what does faith have to do with anything? If he's not, then how can we be held accountable for having faith...or not, in guesswork?

Edited May 20, 2012 by tana

[Storm Rider]

The promptings of the Holy Spirit, the burning bush, the still, small voice, or the golden calf. Man seems to often prefer the golden calf; it is there before their eyes, they can touch it, feel it, and call it their god. The problems with the first three mentioned is that they all can easily be cast aside as the dellusions of a moment in time, bad food, or just a lapse of sanity.

For me the great requirement of this life is to seek for truth and to hold to truths once found. Faith as defined in the Book of Mormon 32:21 And now as I said concerning faith— faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true. To seek truth we must have hope that truths will lead us to greater knowledge and understanding about our ownselves and eternity or life after death.

You posit that the interaction with the Holy Spirit is either too much or too little. He is either the voice heard or the feelings misunderstood. Do you have hope to understand the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon? If so, then continue to read and pray about what you are reading. Think about what you read and see how it might apply to your daily life. Ask God if this book will lead you in greater righteousness and a deeper understanding of him and his plan for you as his child. If you do these things your hope will grow into faith and your fait will grow into a strong foundation that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God and you are his child and may return to live with him one day.

[tana]

The promptings of the Holy Spirit, the burning bush, the still, small voice, or the golden calf. Man seems to often prefer the golden calf; it is there before their eyes, they can touch it, feel it, and call it their god. The problems with the first three mentioned is that they all can easily be cast aside as the dellusions of a moment in time, bad food, or just a lapse of sanity.

For me the great requirement of this life is to seek for truth and to hold to truths once found. Faith as defined in the Book of Mormon 32:21 And now as I said concerning faith— faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true. To seek truth we must have hope that truths will lead us to greater knowledge and understanding about our ownselves and eternity or life after death.

You posit that the interaction with the Holy Spirit is either too much or too little. He is either the voice heard or the feelings misunderstood. Do you have hope to understand the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon? If so, then continue to read and pray about what you are reading. Think about what you read and see how it might apply to your daily life. Ask God if this book will lead you in greater righteousness and a deeper understanding of him and his plan for you as his child. If you do these things your hope will grow into faith and your fait will grow into a strong foundation that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God and you are his child and may return to live with him one day.

D&C 9

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must astudy it out in your bmind; then you must cask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your dbosom shall eburn within you; therefore, you shall ffeel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a astupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is bsacred save it be given you from me.

Study, mind, thought, forget = intellect

[Storm Rider]

Your cup seems pretty full; I can't really offer anything else.

[CASteinman]

From what I can tell, the LDS God has decided faith is the best identifier of a persons worth. He therefor provides little physical evidence for ones intellect, relying on the 'Holy Ghost' to testify to us for our witness. But.....Doesn't one still have to use ones intellect to understand what the promptings are? If I'm getting a certain feeling while reading the Book of Mormon, I still have to use my intellect to figure out the connection. The feeling could be anything.

What seems confusing is that god wants to provide some evidence, but not too much.....and based on the individual also. For instance, for our intellect he provides witnesses to the plates, but not the plates themselves as that would be too much.

God must have a pretty sophisticated equation figured out to be able to supply a fixed amount of tactile evidence to the many, that somehow just only doesn't exceed the personal limit of the one.

My real question tho is, if god is sending us the holy ghost as evidence.....Wouldn't that be considered too much evidence? I mean, how do you have faith if you know the church is true because God sent you the HG.?

If I use my intellect and (blindly?) trust in the teaching of my fathers, god will then, because of that- send me evidence via the HG. to.....give me a feeling that I must decipher with my intellect? -Or-somehow convincingly talk to my mind? But, for god to give me irrefutable evidence by talking to my mind through the HG, wouldn't that be considered too much evidence?.....which makes the whole concept of faith inconsequential. Whereas, if he is just sending promptings that I must decipher, then I can never be held accountable as it is all guesswork.

Wow. You have sure asked and explored a lot there.

For me, there are three sorts of sources of information: 1. My own experiences, 2) the words of Jesus and the Prophets 3) the experiences of others.

Something that might be a bit helpful to you is that Jesus said that for some it is given to know for themselves and for others it is given to believe on the words of those who know. I think this is overlooked by many LDS who prize personal experience. But it is every bit as valid, according to Jesus, for us to not have personal knowledge but only just believe on the words of those who know. In other words, some people may have the gift given to them to merely just believe! And thats OK.

In my case, I would say I have components of 1) knowing for myself from my experiences with prayer and the holy spirit, 2) believing on the words of others and 3) just figuring things out analytically, logically and through evidence.

I should point out that I do not have a testimony of all things. Some things I absolutely do not have a spiritual witness or even the ability to "believe" and I have not figured them out analytically. But in each of these cases, this seems to me to be things that are on the periphery -- not central to the message. And so, in these cases, I have sort of set them aside and said, "I will deal with that later".

One interesting case of what I would describe as a combination of knowing for myself and believing on the words of others and also some small degree of analysis -- probably the strongest example I personally have, is the Book of Abraham. I am absolutely convinced this is a book of God. I am aware of arguments against it. I know that some people are apparently very persuaded by arguments against it. For me, that is weird. I cannot hear the arguments against the Book of Abraham and feel any persuasion at all. It would be like hearing arguments that the hair on the back of my head was actually purple. I can't see the back of my head, but arguments like that would just bore me after a while, no matter how compelling. I FEEL deeply, when I read the Book of Abraham, that I am in touch with something divine. I believe the words of the Prophets in Abraham. And when I read it, it makes sense to me. This is a feeling I have deep in my soul. I am not sure I would say "unshakable" but I think it is. I would be just gasted in all the flabber regions if somehow, I were dead and God said "Yeah..that book was hooey". I would almost want to say "Am I in the right place?" I feel that strongly. But, I would never reject something God told me even on this matter.

Before I joined the church, I read the Book of Abraham before I read the Book of Mormon. I think, pretty early on I "believed" it. But looking back, I feel like I believed it with my skin. Currently, I feel like I believe it with my cells and nervous system. I would say that the way this change has taken place is a bit like it is described in the D&C -- "the Doctrines of the Priesthood shall distill upon thy soul as the dews from heaven".

I have doubts that I am saying anything that is helpful to you but I have tried to give my best insights.

Edited May 20, 2012 by CASteinman

[tana]

Wow. You have sure asked and explored a lot there.

For me, there are three sorts of sources of information: 1. My own experiences, 2) the words of Jesus and the Prophets 3) the experiences of others.

Something that might be a bit helpful to you is that Jesus said that for some it is given to know for themselves and for others it is given to believe on the words of those who know. I think this is overlooked by many LDS who prize personal experience. But it is every bit as valid, according to Jesus, for us to not have personal knowledge but only just believe on the words of those who know. In other words, some people may have the gift given to them to merely just believe! And thats OK.

In my case, I would say I have components of 1) knowing for myself from my experiences with prayer and the holy spirit, 2) believing on the words of others and 3) just figuring things out analytically, logically and through evidence.

I should point out that I do not have a testimony of all things. Some things I absolutely do not have a spiritual witness or even the ability to "believe" and I have not figured them out analytically. But in each of these cases, this seems to me to be things that are on the periphery -- not central to the message. And so, in these cases, I have sort of set them aside and said, "I will deal with that later".

One interesting case of what I would describe as a combination of knowing for myself and believing on the words of others and also some small degree of analysis -- probably the strongest example I personally have, is the Book of Abraham. I am absolutely convinced this is a book of God. I am aware of arguments against it. I know that some people are apparently very persuaded by arguments against it. For me, that is weird. I cannot hear the arguments against the Book of Abraham and feel any persuasion at all. It would be like hearing arguments that the hair on the back of my head was actually purple. I can't see the back of my head, but arguments like that would just bore me after a while, no matter how compelling. I FEEL deeply, when I read the Book of Abraham, that I am in touch with something divine. I believe the words of the Prophets in Abraham. And when I read it, it makes sense to me. This is a feeling I have deep in my soul. I am not sure I would say "unshakable" but I think it is. I would be just gasted in all the flabber regions if somehow, I were dead and God said "Yeah..that book was hooey". I would almost want to say "Am I in the right place?" I feel that strongly. But, I would never reject something God told me even on this matter.

Before I joined the church, I read the Book of Abraham before I read the Book of Mormon. I think, pretty early on I "believed" it. But looking back, I feel like I believed it with my skin. Currently, I feel like I believe it with my cells and nervous system. I would say that the way this change has taken place is a bit like it is described in the D&C -- "the Doctrines of the Priesthood shall distill upon thy soul as the dews from heaven".

I have doubts that I am saying anything that is helpful to you but I have tried to give my best insights.

Thanks for the post C. I appreciate your candor and straightforwardness.

[inquiringmind]

Wow. You have sure asked and explored a lot there.

For me, there are three sorts of sources of information: 1. My own experiences, 2) the words of Jesus and the Prophets 3) the experiences of others.

Something that might be a bit helpful to you is that Jesus said that for some it is given to know for themselves and for others it is given to believe on the words of those who know. I think this is overlooked by many LDS who prize personal experience. But it is every bit as valid, according to Jesus, for us to not have personal knowledge but only just believe on the words of those who know. In other words, some people may have the gift given to them to merely just believe! And thats OK.

In my case, I would say I have components of 1) knowing for myself from my experiences with prayer and the holy spirit, 2) believing on the words of others and 3) just figuring things out analytically, logically and through evidence.

I should point out that I do not have a testimony of all things. Some things I absolutely do not have a spiritual witness or even the ability to "believe" and I have not figured them out analytically. But in each of these cases, this seems to me to be things that are on the periphery -- not central to the message. And so, in these cases, I have sort of set them aside and said, "I will deal with that later".

One interesting case of what I would describe as a combination of knowing for myself and believing on the words of others and also some small degree of analysis -- probably the strongest example I personally have, is the Book of Abraham. I am absolutely convinced this is a book of God. I am aware of arguments against it. I know that some people are apparently very persuaded by arguments against it. For me, that is weird. I cannot hear the arguments against the Book of Abraham and feel any persuasion at all. It would be like hearing arguments that the hair on the back of my head was actually purple. I can't see the back of my head, but arguments like that would just bore me after a while, no matter how compelling. I FEEL deeply, when I read the Book of Abraham, that I am in touch with something divine. I believe the words of the Prophets in Abraham. And when I read it, it makes sense to me. This is a feeling I have deep in my soul. I am not sure I would say "unshakable" but I think it is. I would be just gasted in all the flabber regions if somehow, I were dead and God said "Yeah..that book was hooey". I would almost want to say "Am I in the right place?" I feel that strongly. But, I would never reject something God told me even on this matter.

Before I joined the church, I read the Book of Abraham before I read the Book of Mormon. I think, pretty early on I "believed" it. But looking back, I feel like I believed it with my skin. Currently, I feel like I believe it with my cells and nervous system. I would say that the way this change has taken place is a bit like it is described in the D&C -- "the Doctrines of the Priesthood shall distill upon thy soul as the dews from heaven".

I have doubts that I am saying anything that is helpful to you but I have tried to give my best insights.

Could you explain your understanding of Abraham 3:18-19 to me?

Do you think it's saying that you and I and everyone who ever has or ever will live on earth have always existed (as individuals, even before we were spirit-children, without ever having been created, or born, or organized)?

If that's true, aren't you talking about a whole universe of bare facts?

And if we could all just exist as bare facts, why couldn't the lifeless things around us?

Doesn't something inside tell you that there has to be a God because we're here, the things around us are here, and He made it all?

And if that is what instinct tells you, how can you make any sense of Abraham 3:18-19?

What does it mean?

Edited May 20, 2012 by inquiringmind

[CASteinman]

OBE

Edited May 21, 2012 by CASteinman

[CV75]

From what I can tell, the LDS God has decided faith is the best identifier of a persons worth. He therefor provides little physical evidence for ones intellect, relying on the 'Holy Ghost' to testify to us for our witness. But.....Doesn't one still have to use ones intellect to understand what the promptings are? If I'm getting a certain feeling while reading the Book of Mormon, I still have to use my intellect to figure out the connection. The feeling could be anything.

What seems confusing is that god wants to provide some evidence, but not too much.....and based on the individual also. For instance, for our intellect he provides witnesses to the plates, but not the plates themselves as that would be too much.

God must have a pretty sophisticated equation figured out to be able to supply a fixed amount of tactile evidence to the many, that somehow just only doesn't exceed the personal limit of the one.

My real question tho is, if god is sending us the holy ghost as evidence.....Wouldn't that be considered too much evidence? I mean, how do you have faith if you know the church is true because God sent you the HG.?

If I use my intellect and (blindly?) trust in the teaching of my fathers, god will then, because of that- send me evidence via the HG. to.....give me a feeling that I must decipher with my intellect? -Or-somehow convincingly talk to my mind? But, for god to give me irrefutable evidence by talking to my mind through the HG, wouldn't that be considered too much evidence?.....which makes the whole concept of faith inconsequential. Whereas, if he is just sending promptings that I must decipher, then I can never be held accountable as it is all guesswork.

I think it is relative. Spiritual evidence abounds, but from a physical/temporal or non-spiritual viewpoint, it is hidden. By the same token, physical/temporal evidence abounds but is irrelevant to the spiritual viewpoint (whether it is rejected or simply unecessary for proving the underlying spiritual principle to teh faithful). This latter statement shows why spiritual teachings about physical evidence (such as Alma 30:44) are not accepted without faith.

[CV75]

If I use my intellect and (blindly?) trust in the teaching of my fathers, god will then, because of that- send me evidence via the HG. to.....give me a feeling that I must decipher with my intellect? -Or-somehow convincingly talk to my mind? But, for god to give me irrefutable evidence by talking to my mind through the HG, wouldn't that be considered too much evidence?.....which makes the whole concept of faith inconsequential. Whereas, if he is just sending promptings that I must decipher, then I can never be held accountable as it is all guesswork.

This part relates to agency and one's willingness to receive the abundance of evidence (D&C 88 speaks a lot to this -- but I just briefly picked out verses 49, 58, 63, 32, 33, 40). I think "receive" and "comprehend" in this section are often used interchangeably.

[Deborah]

We also read in D&C 8:2 "Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart."

I think if we have spiritual experiences it is because we have used our intellect to study and ask a question. Joseph Smith received revelations after he had been studying scriptures and then went to the Lord with what he didn't understand. And once we have had a spiritual experience it is nurtured by additional study and prayer. If left unnurtured it will soon leave us. but if we feed it properly the spiritual experiences will grow.

God gave us our minds to use and ponder but he gave us our hearts to understand. Both are needed to grow and gain testimony.

[CV75]

And if that is what instinct tells you, how can you make any sense of Abraham 3:18-19?

What does it mean?

Could you explain your understanding of Abraham 3:18-19 to me? [Yes, but in relation to what/whom?]

Do you think it's saying that you and I and everyone who ever has or ever will live on earth have always existed (as individuals, even before we were spirit-children, without ever having been created, or born, or organized)? [Yes.]

If that's true, aren't you talking about a whole universe of bare facts? [I think the better term is a whole universe of beings (for those who act to a degree) and things (for those who are acted upon to a degree). The “facts” are not the spirits or the things themselves (thought he verses are talking about spirits), but that all spirits exist in relation to each other (and whether they are currently connected with physical bodies or not). Man is spirit and God is Spirit (D&C 93:33 and 9.]

And if we could all just exist as bare facts, why couldn't the lifeless things around us? [See above about things to act and things to be acted upon (2 Nephi 2:13-26); the two verses are about spirits who act, not “bare facts” that act]

Doesn't something inside tell you that there has to be a God because we're here, the things around us are here, and He made it all? [Yes, and this is supported by Alma 30:44.]

[The Nehor]

You seem to be under the misconception that humans are logical beings.

[CASteinman]

Could you explain your understanding of Abraham 3:18-19 to me?

It teaches these principles:

1) People are not really equal in every respect

2) Spirits are eternal

3) God is greater than all of us

I don't know if that helps or not, but I don't really understand what you are looking for.

Do you think it's saying that you and I and everyone who ever has or ever will live on earth have always existed (as individuals, even before we were spirit-children, without ever having been created, or born, or organized)?

Well, kinda and kinda not. Let me rephrase it using your words in a way that would be more correct

You and I and everyone who ever has or ever will live on earth have always existed (as individuals,without ever having been created)

If that's true, aren't you talking about a whole universe of bare facts?

I honestly do not know what that means, but if I try to understand it, the answer is "No". The universe contains much more than abstractions. Spirit is not an abstraction. We believe Spirit is a type or a phase of a class of matter/energy.

And if we could all just exist as bare facts, why couldn't the lifeless things around us?

Maybe. But we do not believe the universe and Spirits are just existing as "bare facts" (I am not really sure what that means, but I can't imagine any Mormon saying we believe such a thing)

Doesn't something inside tell you that there has to be a God because we're here, the things around us are here, and He made it all?

Yes, if by "made" you mean organized. We do not believe God created the Universe out of nothing.

And if that is what instinct tells you, how can you make any sense of Abraham 3:18-19?

Before I ever joined the LDS Church, before I ever heard my first word of Mormon Doctrine, I had come to the conclusion, on my own, that if there was a God, He would want us to become like him and that we would be co-eternal with God. When I read Abraham, I felt immediately like I was reading the truth.

Hope that helps a bit. I am not sure what you are driving at.

[BlueDreams]

I'm about to leave, but I wanted to make a quick comment.

I think the premise to your post is incorrect. I don't think faith is the best identifier of a person's worth. Charity is. Scripture is pretty explicit about it. Without charity we are nothing. It's a small point, but I think very important in understanding where faith and intellect fit in.

With luv,

bd

[tana]

I'm about to leave, but I wanted to make a quick comment.

I think the premise to your post is incorrect. I don't think faith is the best identifier of a person's worth. Charity is. Scripture is pretty explicit about it. Without charity we are nothing. It's a small point, but I think very important in understanding where faith and intellect fit in.

With luv,

bd

But, how does one have love for God, (charity) if one doesn't believe he exists, (faith)?

[CV75]

But, how does one have love for God, (charity) if one doesn't believe he exists, (faith)?

I think one can have charity and not recognize its source as God (or hold God as a recipient of it) and thus not be able to identify it as such. But it can be held and expressed in degrees until it is quite clear that it is part of being God. This is an example of how humble and generous God is.