changed Posted May 3, 2012 Posted May 3, 2012 (edited) so a few are saying:"human reason is less a tool for figuring out what to do, and more a tool for justifying what we've already decided to do... (this isn't to say reasoning is futile, or that we don't ever use it to actually decide what to do, but we generally use reason as a deciding mechanism only when intuition and emotion are at a loss or conflicting.)"http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0307377903"So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do." -Benjamin FranklinAs far as this applies to apologetics, perhaps the best missionary tools are not rational debate? Haidt suggests that decisions are made based on emotion/intuition... I think perhaps they are made based on listening to the dictates of our own conscience (which is the light of Christ) or not... perhaps rather than debate, it's better to talk with others / encourage others to reach into the depths of their own conscience? once you are in the rational debate mode, it's too late - the decision is already made..."(Bible Dictionary | C Conscience:Entry)we are born with a natural capacity to distinguish between right and wrong, due to the light of Christ that is given to every person, D&C 84:44–53. We have a faculty by means of which we can pass judgment on our own conduct, either approving or condemning it, so anticipating the divine judgment on it. This faculty is called conscience. The possession of it at once makes us responsible beings. Like other faculties it needs to be trained, and may be deadened through misuse. " the question for this thread:1. How do you connect with your conscience? (meditation, prayer, scripture study, nature hikes, gathering with loved ones, service and charity work). What separates you from your conscience, and how do you fix this? (guilt = separation from conscience, fix this through repentance, and trying to live guilt free by choosing actions that are aligned with our conscience... vs. trying to live guilt free by ignoring/trampling our own conscience)2. How do you encourage others (who appear to be at odds with their own conscience) to listen to their inner voice, and live according to the dictates of their own conscience?everyone will claim they are in tune with their conscience... only the very honest will admit discrepancies... I think all of us are slightly out of tune with our conscience, and this is why we are imperfect... Edited May 3, 2012 by changed
Log Posted May 3, 2012 Posted May 3, 2012 Hey wait, didn't you post this at LDS.NET also?I'm not sure I get your questions.
thesometimesaint Posted May 3, 2012 Posted May 3, 2012 If any behavior persists we will develop a rationale to justify it.Psych 101.
changed Posted May 3, 2012 Author Posted May 3, 2012 Hey wait, didn't you post this at LDS.NET also? yes, and one other place I like to frequent . Interesting to see the different directions the same thread can take at different places. How many here also go to LDS.net? I'm not sure I get your questions.what's the point of debate - if people have already made up their mind before the debate? seems like usually debate does not change anyone's mind. I think I agree with Haidt in thinking that debate is not the precursor to making decisions (like which church to go to) - that what we decide to do, to believe, to belong to comes from something more than rationalizations....
changed Posted May 3, 2012 Author Posted May 3, 2012 (edited) If any behavior persists we will develop a rationale to justify it.Psych 101.yes, this sort of a thing - if the rationale comes after the behavior/belief/decision - what is the cause of the behavior/belief/decision? seems like that would be good info for a missionary to know Edited May 3, 2012 by changed
The Nehor Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 If any behavior persists we will develop a rationale to justify it.Psych 101.As a serial killer and jumprope enthusiast I approve this message. 1
blackstrap Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 Debate may not change anyone's mind while the debate is going on,but with solomn contemplation in quiet meditation after the day's battle,minds can change. 2
The Nehor Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 Debate may not change anyone's mind while the debate is going on,but with solomn contemplation in quiet meditation after the day's battle,minds can change.Yes, but that is rarely how it works. Usually it works simply by blanket exposure and the concept being made to appear heroic, the way the future is going, sexy, or some other nebulous concept.
Glenn101 Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 The justification for owning slaves is something that comes to mind. By Christian ministers, no less. The justifications were many and varied, and are looked upon as totally unacceptable by most today. There was hot and heavy debate between abolitionists and slave owners and slave traders for decades before the Civil War.Glenn
Mudcat Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 A longstanding dictum in sales is that people make decisions based on emotion and defend their decisions with logic. I think a lot of folks do this sort of thing. After nearly two decades in sales, this seems to be true for the most part but there are exceptions to the general rule.In that respect, I am wired up a bit backwards but anecdotaly, I don't think I am alone in that.
changed Posted May 4, 2012 Author Posted May 4, 2012 (edited) ...Usually it works simply by blanket exposure ....it's always disturbed me that political votes seem to be proportional to the amount of campaign $'s spent in a state... that instead of voting for principles, people seem to vote according to what adds they have seen the most of... I read in a psychology mag recently that people are too busy to sit down and think things through, so they tend to be more gullible / easily brainwashed / prone to just see & believe, because they don't have time to sit down and think it through for themselves....A longstanding dictum in sales is that people make decisions based on emotion and defend their decisions with logic. ..how many do the same thing with religious decisions? appeal to logic, or appeal to emotion?Mormon messages do a good job of appealing to both I think It's not a bad thing to appeal to emotion though, I mean emotions are real, they are a real part of our life, they are created by real things - so how you emotionally feel about something is a legitimate part of a decision making process... Edited May 4, 2012 by changed
katherine the great Posted May 4, 2012 Posted May 4, 2012 This thread kind of reminds me of that fun saying: My mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts!" 1
Monster Posted May 6, 2012 Posted May 6, 2012 This thread at times implies that reason and logic is flawed somehow and there is some other more reliable mans of determining truth or reality. I reject that notion. Although logic may not always work and reason can be influenced it is still a much better way to approach a problem than anything else. Is emotion or a good feeling somehow a better approach to finding answers? I do not think so. Edison did not invent the light bulb by some kind of feeling. He reasoned it out and tested some thousands of materials that would act as a filament. I think it is much more likely God will judge us on using the brains we were given and our capacity to reason than on whether we believed something based on emotion.If you want to find someone who is set in there ways and wants to use logic to defend themselves just look to someone who initially found "truth" through an emotional response.
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