Joseph'S Removal.

[Pahoran]

When Smith crossed the river and submitted to arrest by Illinois authorities, he was certainly at least worried that he might not live much longer. But I don't think there is anything to indicate that he knew he would die. He hoped to survive, up to the end. In a letter the day he died, he sent a letter to Emma telling her not to worry because the Governor of Illinois would protect him. He also likely sent a letter ordering the Nauvoo Legion to protect him as well.

Call for references, please.

Given that the supposed Dunham letter turned out to be a Hofmann forgery, what else have you got? Brodie?

I know it's almost like a reflexive twitch of a lower leg joint for you to uncritically accept anything, no matter how dubious the source, that makes the Church and/or its leaders look bad, but mightn't it be a good idea to exercise just a little bit of critical thinking occasionally?

Regards,

Pahoran

[rameumptom]

I think Joseph felt that he was like Abinadi. As long as he had a work to do for the Lord, he would be protected. Given that he finished the endowment and instruction of the Twelve prior to Spring 1844, he was satisfied that the Church would continue without him. At that point, he knew that the Lord did not need to keep protecting him as the sole bearer of the Church. Perhaps he felt the mantle of protection leaving him as such required tasks were completed, and knew that his last meal would be in Carthage.

[Cobalt-70]

Call for references, please.

Given that the supposed Dunham letter turned out to be a Hofmann forgery, what else have you got? Brodie?

I know it's almost like a reflexive twitch of a lower leg joint for you to uncritically accept anything, no matter how dubious the source, that makes the Church and/or its leaders look bad, but mightn't it be a good idea to exercise just a little bit of critical thinking occasionally?

Hoffman forged the Dunham letter because it was already established that such a letter likely existed. That was Hoffman's MO. That the letter likely existed is based on at least three sources: devout Mormon Allen Stout (http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/AStout.html), Godbeite Mormon journalist T.B.H. Stenhouse (http://books.google.com/books?id=XbcUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA164) who based his info on interviews of unnamed sources, and there is a contemporary letter by one of the jailors who said that when it appeared that troops were storming the Carthage jail, Smith's first reaction was to say, "Don't trouble yourself...they've come to rescue me," apparently mistaking them for the Nauvoo Legion.

[tana]

Here's what Brigham Young said:

"If Joseph Smith, jun., the Prophet,

had followed the Spirit of revelation in him he never would have gone to Carthage

....Many of the first Elders of this church have a different understanding; they are under the impression that he went there according to his own choice. Joseph intended to go West; he designed to raise a company to come to the very country we now occupy. He said, 'I can see life and liberty and salvation in that course, but if I return to give myself up, it is death and darkness to the full; I am like a lamb led to the slaughter,' and never for one moment did he [smith] say that he had one particle of light in him after he started back from Montrose to give himself up in Nauvoo. This he did through the persuasion of others. I want you to understand that." (Special Council, Mar. 21, 1858, Brigham Young Papers, Church Archives.)

http://signaturebook...ry.org/?p=11183

Also, looking at his demeaner, behaviour before the printing press destruction. The evidence seems to indicate that Joseph wasn't aware that his time was about up.

[tana]

God seems to be very much hands on, with a game plan, waiting 1500 plus years for the right time, place, and for the right person to restore his gospel, constantly talking to him with revelations, right up to a point, where he becomes indifferent as to Joseph's death. Then he becomes hands on again, having BY prepped and ready to take over.

It seems like some people would like to have it both ways....God is managing things tightly and loosely at the same time.

I think that the only logical way to look at it, as to the restoration and management of the gospel, is that God is running things tightly.

And if that is the case...tightly....then why remove JS? The only possibilities that I can see are, (1) He was fallen, or (2) To provide evidence for others that JS was willing to die for his beliefs.

My question then would be....is God in the evidence business, or the faith business?

[frankenstein]

You want the worst kind of speculation.

[blueadept]

Please say more... I'm seriously interested in seeing this from your POV and that statement has me intrigued. I suspect I have a huge blind spot as to how others see martyrdom.

For me martyrdom is the ultimate testimony a soul can leave in this life for their beliefs. We know that evil will always oppose and it is no surprise that Joseph was a target for those who sought to kill the LDS church with him. However I don't think the plans of God foreordained him to die at that time or would have been thwarted if he had died at another.

I don't subscribe to the notion that Joseph was removed by God for any reason other than the forces of evil pocked the time and place and Joseph went willingly to face his fate, comforted by the peace of knowing he had been on God's errand.

How does this contrast or complement the EV or Catholic view of martyrdom in your observation?

Please, elaborate. I would love to hear and ponder. Genuinely.

I remember reading a book titled “Blood of the Martyrs, Seed of the Church” that was about stories of Catholics/Christians who died for their faith by Paul Thigpen. It quotes Tertullian a lot with the idea that the blood of Christians is seed. Here’s a few quotes in regards to Martyrs.

Rev 2:10

Do not be afraid of anything that you are going to suffer. … Remain faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

John 24-26

24^* Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat;^r but if it dies, it produces much fruit. 25Whoever loves his life^* loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life.^s 26Whoever serves me must follow me, and where I am, there also will my servant be. The Father will honor whoever serves me.^t

“We multiply whenever we are mown down by you; the blood of Christians is seed.” - Tertullian, Apology, 50, 13

Christ is the Model of Martyrdom

1PT 2:20-21

20But what credit is there if you are patient when beaten for doing wrong? But if you are patient when you suffer for doing what is good, this is a grace before God. 21For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his footsteps.^o

The Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, V, 42

By martydom a disciple is transformed into an image of his Master, who freely accepted death on behalf of the world’s salvation; he perfects that image, even to the shedding of blood.

John Paul II, Tertio, IV, 37

“the seeds sown by martyrs and the heritage of sanctity which marked the first Christian generations.”

The book has a lot of stories of the early martyrs and it’s an easy read.

From my perspective, martyrdom is a normal part of HF's plan in making His church grow. I'm amused that LDS seem to view Joseph Smith's death as simply a tradgety with not a lot of redeeming value. You're sitting at 14 million members presently which I attribute a lot of that to his martyrdom in dying for his faith. His willingness to 'die like a lamb' seems to be a part of a lot of testimonies I've heard from LDS. My 2 cents.

Edited March 28, 2012 by blueadept

[Nominee]

God seems to be very much hands on, with a game plan, waiting 1500 plus years for the right time, place, and for the right person to restore his gospel, constantly talking to him with revelations, right up to a point, where he becomes indifferent as to Joseph's death. Then he becomes hands on again, having BY prepped and ready to take over.

It seems like some people would like to have it both ways....God is managing things tightly and loosely at the same time.

I think that the only logical way to look at it, as to the restoration and management of the gospel, is that God is running things tightly.

And if that is the case...tightly....then why remove JS? The only possibilities that I can see are, (1) He was fallen, or (2) To provide evidence for others that JS was willing to die for his beliefs.

My question then would be....is God in the evidence business, or the faith business?

Could you please confirm so that I know if I am hearing you correctly?

One of only two possibilities that you can see is that the Prophet Joseph turned into an ill-behaved person that turned away from God so God had him killed? And the only other possibility you can see is that God had his Prophet, Joseph Smith, killed so that other people would know that he was willing to die for a God that would kill him?

Your post seems to offend God more than it offends Joseph Smith.

Could you please clarify your belief or faith or whatever you may call it? I am curious as to whether you actually even believe in God at all. I ask because to me it sounds like you can't give God any attributes beyond that of a mortal human being. Do you believe that God exists at all? If you do, how do you define Him?

Edited March 28, 2012 by Nominee

[Nominee]

You're sitting at 14 million members presently which I attribute a lot of that to his martyrdom in dying for his faith. His willingness to 'die like a lamb' seems to be a part of a lot of testimonies I've heard from LDS. My 2 cents.

Thank you for your response. I hope that in reading my previous posts in this thread you will see that I am definitely in agreement with you on this.

Where I may not feel that Heavenly Father needed or even intended for Brother Joseph to die the way he did, I do readily acknowledge that great and wonderful things can be the result of any sad tragedy through righteousness, forgiveness, and endurance.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Nominee

[tana]

You want the worst kind of speculation.

I disagree, I am not just about *want*ing to win for winning/ego's sake. I am posting what I think are legitimate points on a discussion board for my own education/entertainment purposes.

[tana]

Could you please confirm so that I know if I am hearing you correctly?

One of only two possibilities that you can see is that the Prophet Joseph turned into an ill-behaved person that turned away from God so God had him killed? And the only other possibility you can see is that God had his Prophet, Joseph Smith, killed so that other people would know that he was willing to die for a God that would kill him?

Your post seems to offend God more than it offends Joseph Smith.

Could you please clarify your belief or faith or whatever you may call it? I am curious as to whether you actually even believe in God at all. I ask because to me it sounds like you can't give God any attributes beyond that of a mortal human being. Do you believe that God exists at all? If you do, how do you define Him?

If you want to take a look this thread will give some insight into my personal existence theories. Posts #47, 56, 90, 93, 106.

[Pahoran]

Hoffman forged the Dunham letter because it was already established that such a letter likely existed. That was Hoffman's MO.

Skip the editorialising, please. You are appealing to your own assumption about Hofmann's opinion as if it were worth something. What are the sources?

That the letter likely existed is based on at least three sources: devout Mormon Allen Stout (http://www.boap.org/...nts/AStout.html),

And what does Allen say?

Here, let me help you:

And while they were in jail, Brother Joseph wrote an official order to Jonathan Dunham to bring the Legion and reserve him from being killed, but Dunham did not let a single man or mortal know that he had received such orders, and we were kept in the city under arms, not knowing but all was well, until the mob came and forced the prison and slew Joseph and Hyrum Smith and wounded John Taylor severely.

Quaere: if, as Stout says, "Dunham did not let a single man or mortal know that he had received such orders," how did Stout know about them?

Was he in Carthage Jail to see Joseph write them?

No. He said himself, "we were kept in the city [i.e. Nauvoo] under arms," etc.

So he didn't get it from Joseph, and he didn't get it from Dunham. Is Stout a first-hand source regarding this letter?

No.

He may be a hearsay source, but who did he hear, and what did they say?

He doesn't tell us. That being the case, his story has no basis. It is merely a rumour. And that is almost certainly where Stout heard about it, too; from the rumours that swept the camp, as rumours so often do, especially after a significant event.

Godbeite Mormon journalist T.B.H. Stenhouse (http://books.google....AAYAAJ&pg=PA164)

You're being a little bit coy here, aren't you? Stenhouse was a notorious 19th century apostate and anti-Mormon, whose book vied with several other "Exposé" works that all competed to outdo each other for sheer sensationalism.

who based his info on interviews of unnamed sources,

IOW, more rumours. You are relying exclusively upon gossip.

and there is a contemporary letter by one of the jailors who said that when it appeared that troops were storming the Carthage jail, Smith's first reaction was to say, "Don't trouble yourself...they've come to rescue me," apparently mistaking them for the Nauvoo Legion.

Let me guess: if I ask for a link to this supposed "contemporary letter," you'll duck out of it by saying it's not a secret and anyone can read about it, right?

The thing is that the last one is only evidence for the supposed Dunham letter if you already accept that it existed. Absent such an assumption, it could refer to anything, if indeed it has been accurately reported.

What it comes down to is that you accept these gossips because you prefer to. It doesn't add up to anything even remotely compelling, does it?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Nominee]

If you want to take a look this thread will give some insight into my personal existence theories. Posts #47, 56, 90, 93, 106.

Phew! Okay, thank you. So, no, you do not believe that God exists as Christianity (including LDS) knows Him to be.

That was a great thread! I had not read it before as I am relatively new to this board. Thanks, also, for directing me to it.

[frankenstein]

I disagree, I am not just about *want*ing to win for winning/ego's sake. I am posting what I think are legitimate points on a discussion board for my own education/entertainment purposes.

Ok, so you have at least two reasons for this thread

1. To win

2. Education but you qualified this with entertainment

So you established this is an entirely selfish thread with no purpose other than for you to win and be entertained.

Paharon, your wit can better express what is going on here, please help.

Edited March 28, 2012 by frankenstein

[Nominee]

Ok, so you have at least two reasons for this thread

1. To win

2. Education but you qualified this with entertainment

So you abbey established this is an entirely selfish thread with no purpose other than for you to win and be entertained.

Paharon, your wit can better express what is going on here, please help.

Yes, after reading the thread offered to explain his personal existence theories and putting it up against what he is saying in this thread here, I envision a boy poking at things with a stick just to see what response he will get.

[Zakuska]

See Doc&Cov 135. "To seal their testimony with their blood", as I recall.

When Joseph said he was going like a lamb to slaughter, and that it would be said of him that he was murdered in cold blood leads me to believe that he was well aware of the fact that his life was about to be taken. If, he said, my life is of no value to my friends, it is of none to me shares that theme. There were earlier allusions, too, but these, made within days of Jun 27, 1844, are the most telling.

Lehi

Ive been told by several Anti-Mormons that he deserved everything he got.

[frankenstein]

I found the answer

Cthulhu

[Flyonthewall]

God has certainly preserved prophets until their mission is accomplished.

Abinidi is one(Mosiah 13:3)

Jesus was also allowed to escape thru a crowd because it was not his time yet.

[Stargazer]

I found the answer

Cthulhu

Then you will be blessed and be among the first he eats!

[Avatar4321]

But, just for reasons sake, What was the purpose, what end was met...What reason would god have at that time for Joseph to be a martyr....a rallying cry for the saints....to help them move West?

You should be thinking in an Eternal perspective. Maybe it had very little to do with helping the saints who are living but to prepare the work for the Saints who are dead. Joseph's work continued on the other side of the veil. Im not sure we should think that it was just for our sakes.

Though, I can tell you that without the martyrdom, and John Taylor's testimony of it, I would not have gained my testimony. His sacrifice taught me that the Church is true. Ill always be grateful for that.

[tana]

Yes, after reading the thread offered to explain his personal existence theories and putting it up against what he is saying in this thread here, I envision a boy poking at things with a stick just to see what response he will get.

Crimony guys, why the personals? I like watching Pahoran rough up the drive by's as much as the next guy.....but this isn't a drive by. From the responses it appears to be a subjective subject with no clear cut explanation for why god chose to let Joseph be removed.

I explained that I post on here not NOT with a closed mind win at all costs attitude....but to post what I think are reasonable questions....for my own education/entertainment.

Why does anyone post on message boards if not for their own entertainment?

[tana]

You should be thinking in an Eternal perspective. Maybe it had very little to do with helping the saints who are living but to prepare the work for the Saints who are dead. Joseph's work continued on the other side of the veil. Im not sure we should think that it was just for our sakes.

Though, I can tell you that without the martyrdom, and John Taylor's testimony of it, I would not have gained my testimony. His sacrifice taught me that the Church is true. Ill always be grateful for that.

That sounds like the best reason I've heard yet as to why god would allow/desire Joseph to be removed.

[Avatar4321]

That sounds like the best reason I've heard yet as to why god would allow/desire Joseph to be removed.

It only seems to make sense to me. I mean Joseph did appear to Wilford Woodruff (I think) and say that they were very busy preparing for the Lord's Second Coming. Im paraphrasing.

Seems only logical to me that He finished the work he was born to do on earth that He went to the other side to lead the work on the other side of the Veil.

Now I could be wrong. Hopefully God will reveal it more clearly.

I also should point out Section 136, which just came to mind:

36 For they killed the prophets, and them that were sent unto them; and they have shed innocent blood, which crieth from the ground against them.

37 Therefore, marvel not at these things, for ye are not yet pure; ye can not yet bear my glory; but ye shall behold it if ye are faithful in keeping all my words that I have given you, from the days of Adam to Abraham, from Abraham to Moses, from Moses to Jesus and his apostles, and from Jesus and his apostles to Joseph Smith, whom I did call upon by mine angels, my ministering servants, and by mine own voice out of the heavens, to bring forth my work;

38 Which foundation he did lay, and was faithful; and I took him to myself.

39 Many have marveled because of his death; but it was needful that he should seal his testimony with his blood, that he might be honored and the wicked might be condemned. (D&C 136:36-39)

So I think that sealing his testimony with his blood was the primary reason, as that is the reason the Lord Himself has given. Though I do think He had a great work in the Spirit World to start as well.

[Rivers]

Has anybody here thought of the possibilty that God allowed Joseph to be killed because of some of the bad things Joseph was doing during the last few years of his life? It seems to me that Joseph may have been going a little of track with the manner in which he was practicing polygamy. Perhaps his death prevented him from leading the church astray?

[Avatar4321]

Has anybody here thought of the possibilty that God allowed Joseph to be killed because of some of the bad things Joseph was doing during the last few years of his life? It seems to me that Joseph may have been going a little of track with the manner in which he was practicing polygamy. Perhaps his death prevented him from leading the church astray?

I dont think that's likely. Mostly because the Lord seems to indicate still that He is well pleased with His servant Joseph. Anythings possible I suppose, but I am thinking the Lord would have corrected Him. He never had a problem correcting Him before.