tana Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 I havn't read the entire "age" thread, perhaps this ? has been answered in there...Obviously no one can know gods reasons, but is there a pet theory as to why Joseph was taken, in his apparent prime. It would seem that he wasn't aware that his time was up, right up to the moment of his death.I'm not trying to debate the definition of 'Martyrdom'.... Just curious as to what leaders of the church have conjectured as to why God would remove Joseph at that time.....to what end did it serve?Curt
David T Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) I don't feel God did remove him. He was murdered. I'm not willing to say that God inspired and orchestrated the murderers as 'his instruments'. He allowed the murder to occur just as he allows the murders of others of his children daily who he equally loves all over the world. The mobs were angered, Joseph was placed in a security-compromised position, and the opportunity was taken. Agency was exercised. God's role was in sustaining the Church's leaders' and inspiring them and prompting them to do what was necessary to keep the Church together.That's how I feel. Edited March 28, 2012 by David T 1
Buzzard Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Actually, some of his statements in Nauvoo indicated that he knew his time was coming. Not in a place where I could research them now, but he said that the 12 had all the keys to the kingdom, the saving ordinances of the temple were rolled out, and essentially all the pieces were in place, and that from here on out, his continued life was up to the Lord.
LeSellers Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) See Doc&Cov 135. "To seal their testimony with their blood", as I recall.When Joseph said he was going like a lamb to slaughter, and that it would be said of him that he was murdered in cold blood leads me to believe that he was well aware of the fact that his life was about to be taken. If, he said, my life is of no value to my friends, it is of none to me shares that theme. There were earlier allusions, too, but these, made within days of Jun 27, 1844, are the most telling.Lehi Edited March 28, 2012 by LeSellers 1
Deborah Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Truman Madsen indicates he knew 5 years previously about how much time he had left, which is why he tried to get everything in motion before he died. I do think he wasn't meant to live past accomplishing this work to do as Lehi said seal his testimony with his blood.
tana Posted March 28, 2012 Author Posted March 28, 2012 But, just for reasons sake, What was the purpose, what end was met...What reason would god have at that time for Joseph to be a martyr....a rallying cry for the saints....to help them move West?
blueadept Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 The 2nd-century Early Church Father Tertullian wrote that "the blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church."Your church has continued to grow since Joseph Smith's death. I would say that it was HF's plan.My 2 cents
tana Posted March 28, 2012 Author Posted March 28, 2012 I don't feel God did remove him. He was murdered. I'm not willing to say that God inspired and orchestrated the murderers as 'his instruments'. He allowed the murder to occur just as he allows the murders of others of his children daily who he equally loves all over the world. The mobs were angered, Joseph was placed in a security-compromised position, and the opportunity was taken. Agency was exercised. God's role was in sustaining the Church's leaders' and inspiring them and prompting them to do what was necessary to keep the Church together.That's how I feel.It seems apparent to me that God did watch over Joseph in the past, Why would he decide to quit?
David T Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 "To seal his testimony with his blood."What does that mean? Would the scriptures and doctrines he presented have had less value or authority if Joseph had died of old age, or illness like his successors?
Deborah Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 It seems apparent to me that God did watch over Joseph in the past, Why would he decide to quit?Sigh. And this is why Emma and the rest of the saints thought he would be ok when he went off to Carthage. Joseph had fulfilled his purpose and it was time to seal his testimony. And frankly I think he was just tired. 1
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Bleh. God does that which is good; making a plan in which your faithful servant is murdered by a mob to further some hidden agenda is not good. Joseph's death was a tragedy, not some divine decree orchestrated by Father in Heaven. 2
Deborah Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 D&C 136:39 "Many have marveled because of his death; but it was needful that he should seal his testimony with his blood, that he might be honored and the wicked might be condemned."
LeSellers Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 What does that mean? Would the scriptures and doctrines he presented have had less value or authority if Joseph had died of old age, or illness like his successors?Have you read Doc&Cov 135 recently?1 To seal the testimony of this book and the Book of Mormon, we announce the martyrdom of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and Hyrum Smith the Patriarch. ......7 They were innocent of any crime, as they had often been proved before, and were only confined in jail by the conspiracy of traitors and wicked men; and their innocent blood on the floor of Carthage jail is a broad seal affixed to “Mormonism” that cannot be rejected by any court on earth, and their innocent blood on the escutcheon of the State of Illinois, with the broken faith of the State as pledged by the governor, is a witness to the truth of the everlasting gospel that all the world cannot impeach; and their innocent blood on the banner of liberty, and on the magna charta of the United States, is an ambassador for the religion of Jesus Christ, that will touch the hearts of honest men among all nations; and their innocent blood, with the innocent blood of all the martyrs under the altar that John saw, will cry unto the Lord of Hosts till he avenges that blood on the earth. Amen.It seems to me difficult to answer the question any more clearly.Lehi
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 And the Old Testament claims that God told Joshua to save alive nothing that breathes during his campaigns, including innocent infants. I don't think such scriptures can be used as prooftexts for God's will. 1
Gohan Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Why did the Lord stop defending some of His prophets in the Old Testament? Why weren't the early apostles preserved, why didn't he stop James or Paul from being executed for instance?I don't feel God did remove him. He was murdered. I'm not willing to say that God inspired and orchestrated the murderers as 'his instruments'. He allowed the murder to occur just as he allows the murders of others of his children daily who he equally loves all over the world. The mobs were angered, Joseph was placed in a security-compromised position, and the opportunity was taken. Agency was exercised. God's role was in sustaining the Church's leaders' and inspiring them and prompting them to do what was necessary to keep the Church together.That's how I feel.Ditto on that answer. Edited March 28, 2012 by Gohan
Garden Girl Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) My personal opinion... again, personal opinion, is that Joseph had fulfilled his purpose. The Gospel was restored, priesthood keys were in place. Circumstances in regard to persecution, etc etc called for the saints to find a safe home where they could grow stronger without the opposition they faced daily.Thus, it called for the saints moving west to find "the Place." It required a leader with unique abilities... it was Brigham that was put into that role. A role I frankly feel that he was specifically suited for, not Joseph. Therefore, he was able to hold the saints together and lead them to the Salt Lake Valley... almost an empty wasteland where the saints had to carve out their existence... and the rest is history.I think both Joseph and Brigham were meant to fill their specific roles in moving the Church forward. Joseph fulfilled his... and Brigham fulfilled his...GGedit to add: And don't forget, it was Brigham that was able to colonize the area... even down to San Bernardino area where I grew up in Calif. Brigham possessed abilities and strengths suited for that particular time. Edited March 28, 2012 by Garden Girl
David T Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 It seems apparent to me that God did watch over Joseph in the past, Why would he decide to quit?I reject the idea that just because someone is allowed to be Murdered (or raped, or devleop devastating illness, etc) that it indicates that God isn't watching over them.I guess I don't see God in the evil. I see his sustaining hand to overcome and to endure the aftermath of wickedness. Joseph taught and did things that made people very angry. Joseph didn't stop teaching and doing the things that made people very angry. Joseph's choice to continue doing what he believed was right led to him being in a position where he was murdered.Just like God didn't inspire the Jewish leaders and Romans to murder Jesus. Jesus taught and did things that were politically inconvenient. He didn't stop teaching and doing things that were politically inconvenient. The people reacted accordingly.In both cases, both Joseph and Jesus made the choices committed to their ideals and beliefs that placed them in a position where people were angry with them, and wanted to kill them. The people who killed them made the choice to act on the opportunity. At many points in their lives, Jesus and Joseph could have stopped saying and doing what they were saying and doing. They both felt their messages and actions were important enough that the results of going forward even in the face of inevitable murder would transcend their deaths. But I don't think it's accurate to say "God removed" them. 2
LeSellers Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Deborah already cited Doc&Cov 136:39. "The word and will of the Lord" also gives us this.36 For they killed the prophets, and them that were sent unto them; and they have shed innocent blood, which crieth from the ground against them.37 Therefore, marvel not at these things, for ye are not yet pure; ye can not yet bear my glory; but ye shall behold it if ye are faithful in keeping all my words that I have given you, from the days of Adam to Abraham, from Abraham to Moses, from Moses to Jesus and his apostles, and from Jesus and his apostles to Joseph Smith, whom I did call upon by mine angels, my ministering servants, and by mine own voice out of the heavens, to bring forth my work; 38 Which foundation he did lay, and was faithful; and I took him to myself.39 Many have marveled because of his death; but it was needful that he should seal his testimony with his blood, that he might be honored and the wicked might be condemned.Lehi Edited March 28, 2012 by LeSellers
David T Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) [[Nevermind]] Edited March 28, 2012 by David T 1
Nominee Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 A testimony can be sealed with blood at any age. Heavenly Father did not quit watching over Brother Joseph ~ Heavenly Father does not strip any mortal of his/her given agency, not even the 'bad guys.' Choices were made that led to his death. It happens.What came of what happened is what you have today, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as it stands. Praise the Lord!
frankenstein Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 But, just for reasons sake, What was the purpose, what end was met...What reason would god have at that time for Joseph to be a martyr....a rallying cry for the saints....to help them move West?Does it matter? Can someone just die? I do not think this topic serve any useful purpose. No one here has the authority to even offer speculations.
tana Posted March 28, 2012 Author Posted March 28, 2012 I reject the idea that just because someone is allowed to be Murdered (or raped, or devleop devastating illness, etc) that it indicates that God isn't watching over them.I guess I don't see God in the evil. I see his sustaining hand to overcome and to endure the aftermath of wickedness. Joseph taught and did things that made people very angry. Joseph didn't stop teaching and doing the things that made people very angry. Joseph's choice to continue doing what he believed was right led to him being in a position where he was murdered.Just like God didn't inspire the Jewish leaders and Romans to murder Jesus. Jesus taught and did things that were politically inconvenient. He didn't stop teaching and doing things that were politically inconvenient. The people reacted accordingly.In both cases, both Joseph and Jesus made the choices committed to their ideals and beliefs that placed them in a position where people were angry with them, and wanted to kill them. The people who killed them made the choice to act on the opportunity. At many points in their lives, Jesus and Joseph could have stopped saying and doing what they were saying and doing. They both felt their messages and actions were important enough that the results of going forward even in the face of inevitable murder would transcend their deaths.But I don't think it's accurate to say "God removed" them.This would seem to indicate that God had a plan for these people....that included watching over them for a certain amount of time, but his 4th quarter plan seems to be... que sera sera
cinepro Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 I havn't read the entire "age" thread, perhaps this ? has been answered in there...Obviously no one can know gods reasons, but is there a pet theory as to why Joseph was taken, in his apparent prime. It would seem that he wasn't aware that his time was up, right up to the moment of his death.I'm not trying to debate the definition of 'Martyrdom'.... Just curious as to what leaders of the church have conjectured as to why God would remove Joseph at that time.....to what end did it serve?CurtI think most people that are looking for answers end up with some version of "His work was done."For those of us not looking for answers, it's enough to recognize that Joseph Smith was a man. He wasn't the Church. He wasn't the gospel. He wasn't the scriptures. He wasn't the ordinances. If he had died in 1831, the Church would have still moved forward. If he had died in 1905, the Church still would have moved forward. It probably would have been very different, but still acceptable to the Lord.Ultimately, he died because someone shot him and he fell out of a window. God could have stopped it up to the last second with jammed guns, armies of angels, or anything else. But He didn't. And until God gives us a revelation saying "Thus saith the Lord, here is why I didn't intervene to save Joseph Smith's life on June 27, 1844...", we'll just never know. 1
LeSellers Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 No one here has the authority to even offer speculations.We do have the authority to cite scripture.We have, in two or more places, explicit statements by prophets (John Taylor and Joseph Smith himself) as well as the word and will of the Lord to Brigham Young that God "took [him] unto [Himself]."People idly musing that God wouldn't do anything "bad" are those who speculate. They must hypothesize that death is, ipso facto, "bad". It is not. They seem not to understand the law of witnesses, and the symbolic value of blood and death in relationship to that law.Sorry. If God says He took Joseph so Joseph could be honored, and to seal the witness of the Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon, I'm perfectly willing to take Him at His word.Lehi
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