robuchan Posted March 5, 2012 Posted March 5, 2012 Some questions that came to me from reading the book of Enos.[13] And now behold, this was the desire which I desired of him -- that if it should so be, that my people, the Nephites, should fall into transgression, and by any means be destroyed, and the Lamanites should not be destroyed, that the Lord God would preserve a record of my people, the Nephites; even if it so be by the power of his holy arm, that it might be brought forth at some future day unto the Lamanites, that, perhaps, they might be brought unto salvation --1. Does it seem odd that Enos would somewhat out of the blue pray for a hypothetical situation where the Nephites are completely destroyed and the Lamanites survive? Something that outside of the Book of Mormon would be an extremely rare event (a civilization as large as the Nephites being completely destroyed with no survivors), but actually does occur in the BOM.[20] And I bear record that the people of Nephi did seek diligently to restore the Lamanites unto the true faith in God. But our labors were vain; their hatred was fixed, and they were led by their evil nature that they became wild, and ferocious, and a bloodthirsty people, full of idolatry and filthiness; feeding upon beasts of prey; dwelling in tents, and wandering about in the wilderness with a short skin girdle about their loins and their heads shaven; and their skill was in the bow, and in the cimeter, and the ax. And many of them did eat nothing save it was raw meat; and they were continually seeking to destroy us.2. Does this seem a little too much like a 19th century view of a wild Native American tribe?[13] And now behold, this was the desire which I desired of him -- that if it should so be, that my people, the Nephites, should fall into transgression, and by any means be destroyed, and the Lamanites should not be destroyed, that the Lord God would preserve a record of my people, the Nephites; even if it so be by the power of his holy arm, that it might be brought forth at some future day unto the Lamanites, that, perhaps, they might be brought unto salvation --[16] And I had faith, and I did cry unto God that he would preserve the records; and he covenanted with me that he would bring them forth unto the Lamanites in his own due time.3. Who are the Lamanites? Is this prophesy fulfilled?4. Does the "Others" theory fit with this narrative, ie the Lehites were absorbed into a large population and culture?
Duncan Posted March 5, 2012 Posted March 5, 2012 as to number one doesn't Nephi have a vision where he sees the fall of his people?, it wouldn't seem unreasonable to think that Enos would know about it, as he has the records. As to number two, maybe read what 19th Century Americans thought about Native Americans, probably your best source for info! Point 3 weren't like %95 of the American Native Population wiped out with the advent of the White man-except in Canada where the white man didn't come until much, much later, which explains why there are more Natives here then in the US. Number 4, no clue
bluebell Posted March 5, 2012 Posted March 5, 2012 Some questions that came to me from reading the book of Enos.1. Does it seem odd that Enos would somewhat out of the blue pray for a hypothetical situation where the Nephites are completely destroyed and the Lamanites survive? Something that outside of the Book of Mormon would be an extremely rare event (a civilization as large as the Nephites being completely destroyed with no survivors), but actually does occur in the BOM.It's not out of the blue at all.The prophecy of the destruction of the Nephites is first given in 1 Ne. 15:5.Enos is the son of Jacob and the nephew of Nephi. He grew up, for lack of a better term, in the church. Even if he did not believe as a youth or lost that belief later, it is logical to assume that he would have been aware of many of the teachings of the prophets who were members of his own family and that as a nephite, he would have been aware of the prophecies specifically dealing with the future of his people.Given all of that, it's not really odd at all that Enos's thoughts would go the direction they did.2. Does this seem a little too much like a 19th century view of a wild Native American tribe?Maybe.JS lived in New England though, and the Native Americans he would have been aquainted with didn't live in tents, or wear loin clothes (that i'm aware of).
robuchan Posted March 5, 2012 Author Posted March 5, 2012 Enos is the son of Jacob and the nephew of Nephi. He grew up, for lack of a better term, in the church. Even if he did not believe as a youth or lost that belief later, it is logical to assume that he would have been aware of many of the teachings of the prophets who were members of his own family and that as a nephite, he would have been aware of the prophecies specifically dealing with the future of his people.Given all of that, it's not really odd at all that Enos's thoughts would go the direction they did.OK, I get that, but don't the words that Enos uses imply that he is coming up with this as a total hypothetical...not as a follow up to a prophesy?that if it should so be, that my people, the Nephites, should fall into transgression, and by any means be destroyed
The Nehor Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 1. Does it seem odd that Enos would somewhat out of the blue pray for a hypothetical situation where the Nephites are completely destroyed and the Lamanites survive? Something that outside of the Book of Mormon would be an extremely rare event (a civilization as large as the Nephites being completely destroyed with no survivors), but actually does occur in the BOM.Not really. He might have read the words of Nephi and realized that it was likely.2. Does this seem a little too much like a 19th century view of a wild Native American tribe?Kind of. However at the same time while the Book of Mormon can read like an Andrew Jackson diatribe against natives it also makes the Lamanites the future prophesied heirs of virtually everything. The converted Gentiles get their brief moment in the sun and then become a sideshow. The Lamanites are the chosen people.3. Who are the Lamanites? Is this prophesy fulfilled?Native Americans and partially. The full fulfillment will need to wait until the times of the Gentiles are done.4. Does the "Others" theory fit with this narrative, ie the Lehites were absorbed into a large population and culture?Sure. Lamanite was a political designation that seemed to mean 'not Nephite'. On a practical level introduce anyone with six children (Lehi) into a larger gene pool and have them intermarry and within a thousand years you are pretty much certain to be an ancestor to everyone in the area. Make it two thousand and it will be everyone in the hemisphere.
bluebell Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 OK, I get that, but don't the words that Enos uses imply that he is coming up with this as a total hypothetical...not as a follow up to a prophesy?Not as i read them, no.
zerinus Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Some questions that came to me from reading the book of Enos.1. Does it seem odd that Enos would somewhat out of the blue pray for a hypothetical situation where the Nephites are completely destroyed and the Lamanites survive? Something that outside of the Book of Mormon would be an extremely rare event (a civilization as large as the Nephites being completely destroyed with no survivors), but actually does occur in the BOM.Already answered by others.2. Does this seem a little too much like a 19th century view of a wild Native American tribe?Or maybe it is the other way round!3. Who are the Lamanites? Is this prophesy fulfilled?The Lamanites is a Book of Mormon term which refers to the surviving descendants of the Lehites who came to the Americas as recorded in the BOM (and later joined by the Mulekites). In the D&C it refers to the native Americans (Indians), implying that they are the same. And yes, the prophecy is fulfilled, or is being fulfilled.4. Does the "Others" theory fit with this narrative, ie the Lehites were absorbed into a large population and culture?Not very well. Edited March 7, 2012 by zerinus
Mortal Man Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 1. Does it seem odd that Enos would somewhat out of the blue pray for a hypothetical situation where the Nephites are completely destroyed and the Lamanites survive?It was neither "out of the blue" nor "hypothetical"; the Nephites had already been destroyed the month prior.2. Does this seem a little too much like a 19th century view of a wild Native American tribe?No, it seems about right.3. Who are the Lamanites?The Lamanites are the thousands of children of Laman who suddenly appeared upon his arrival in "Chili".Is this prophesy fulfilled?It was fulfilled until they changed the BoM introduction.4. Does the "Others" theory fit with this narrative, ie the Lehites were absorbed into a large population and culture?Check with Rod Meldrum.
cdowis Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 I find it interesting that you are not very familiar with the text of the BOM. May I suggest that you read it more often and most of these questions will answer themselves.
Tepui Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 Check with Rod Meldrum.Rod Meldrum? Rod Meldrum believes in the Book of Mormon.Check out F.A.R.M.S. and its false doctrine. F.A.R.M.S., now named after a deceased Apostle:The fact that the villages were numerous suggests a challenge for the Lehites to have landed and found an area in which they would be completely alone. The probability that they encountered other people soon after their landing is very close to one hundred percent, based on archaeological evidence alone. Finding such people would answer the question of where the "others" came from—they were already there. The next question involves the direction of assimilation. This requires an examination of the size of the villages.It's 100% certain. LOL!Compare to the text of the Book of Mormon:25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the *** and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.Apparently, the Maya were having a costume party when the Lehites were journeying in the wilderness shortly after their arrival. The Maya were dressed up as the cow, ox, ***, & goat and fooled the author of the verse above.All "Based on archaeological evidence alone." Not based on the Book of Mormon alone.I love reading F.A.R.M.S. It's funnier than Nephites in Tennis Shoes. ------------------------------Regarding Enos, read verse 18 18 And the Lord said unto me: Thy fathers have also required of me this thing; and it shall be done unto them according to their faith; for their faith was like unto thine.In other words, as Enos gained in righteousness, his desires became like that of his righteous fathers. Remember, Nephi saw in vision the destruction of his children - before he was even married - and Lehi prophesied of the preservation of the seed of his older sons. So Enos knew of this and prayed for the same blessing - that the Lamanites would be restored in a future date to the knowledge of the Gospel.He wasn't full of hate for his brethren. Including Rod Meldrum.------------------------------
Freedom Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 It's 100% certain. LOL!I am afraid your quotes do not support your arguments, unless you are suggesting that if I go to New York and write a letter home telling them of the animals I saw, this would prove that the big apple is devoid of people.
robuchan Posted March 10, 2012 Author Posted March 10, 2012 I find it interesting that you are not very familiar with the text of the BOM. May I suggest that you read it more often and most of these questions will answer themselves.I read it probably 15-20 times as a believer. This might be first I've read the passage completely in many years, and maybe the first time as a non-believer. Your perspective changes and you see things you didn't notice before. But thanks.
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