Storm Rider Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Are you referring to our thrice-daily practice of facing the direction of the Great Salt Lake and genuflecting? What's obnoxious about that?You know, it is actually those who will attack another for drinking a coke in one of those highly sanctimonious declarations of true righteousness. Or the fact that the TV is watched on Sunday; my daughter wore two sets of earrings; the dress wasn't below the knee-cap; not inteferring a church meeting in order to take a child to the hospital; having someone teach 20 things one must do to have a celestial marriage (one being not playing with face cards) and then thinking you have attained it because it was taught over the pulpit. I could go on, but it would take some time. I think the gospel gets exaggerated to the point of not being very recognizable to other LDS. It seems like there is a desire to prove one's righteousness by actions rather than by living the Spirit of the law. It is a way of thinking that I also saw on my mission. The saying oft repeated when strict obedience to new laws were demanded, "Stats, stats, stats, we are out of goals not for souls". As I said earlier, I think this is a result of living in a location where any church is the vast majority. It is just too easy for this type of thing to develop rather than in a location where a church is a small minority. 3
Calm Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 You know, it is actually those who will attack another for drinking a coke in one of those highly sanctimonious declarations of true righteousness. Or the fact that the TV is watched on Sunday; my daughter wore two sets of earrings; the dress wasn't below the knee-cap; not inteferring a church meeting in order to take a child to the hospital; having someone teach 20 things one must do to have a celestial marriage (one being not playing with face cards) and then thinking you have attained it because it was taught over the pulpit. I could go on, but it would take some time.I think the gospel gets exaggerated to the point of not being very recognizable to other LDS. It seems like there is a desire to prove one's righteousness by actions rather than by living the Spirit of the law. It is a way of thinking that I also saw on my mission. The saying oft repeated when strict obedience to new laws were demanded, "Stats, stats, stats, we are out of goals not for souls".As I said earlier, I think this is a result of living in a location where any church is the vast majority. It is just too easy for this type of thing to develop rather than in a location where a church is a small minority.Problem is I heard all of those before I moved to Utah and not from LDS who had moved from Utah either....except the hospital one, never heard of that one before even with living in Utah about 12 years total so far.
thesometimesaint Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) ScotT Lloyd:The kids need a revote. Make it Puma's instead. Edited February 22, 2012 by thesometimesaint 1
Storm Rider Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Problem is I heard all of those before I moved to Utah and not from LDS who had moved from Utah either....except the hospital one, never heard of that one before even with living in Utah about 12 years total so far.Ah, that was a personal, family experience (the extended family). The mother could not be bothered while teaching her relief society lesson during the week; her child had to wait in the lobby before she could be taken to the emergency room. This is not even close to the teachings of the Church, but individuals get their priorities all screwed up and feel justified that it is/was the righteous choice. I don't think that could be repeated anywhere else in the world.
volgadon Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 (one being not playing with face cards)To be fair, that is a huge deal in Russia too, not just among members of the church.
Calm Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 It's child abuse and unfortunately I am not so certain it isn't repeated quite a bit though the priority that outweighs the child's welfare is not usually Relief Society.
Storm Rider Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 To be fair, that is a huge deal in Russia too, not just among members of the church.Why? This is one that has always boggled my mind. During my younger days our family like to play hearts, cribbage, Pinochle, solitaire, spades, and an assortment of other card games. I never quite understood how face cards were evil. Coincidentally, none of my family members turned into gamblers, hung out at bars, or anything else. We just like to play cards.
LeSellers Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Why [do many members of the Church (and outside, as well) regard playing cards as evil]? This is one that has always boggled my mind. During my younger days our family like to play hearts, cribbage, Pinochle, solitaire, spades, and an assortment of other card games. I never quite understood how face cards were evil. Coincidentally, none of my family members turned into gamblers, hung out at bars, or anything else. We just like to play cards.It is, according to the best understanding I have, because playing cards form the basis of the tarot deck used for fortune telling. It is not about gambling (or not exclusively), but about inviting such beliefs into our lives. Fortune telling is a large tent that includes necromancy, a practice explicitly forbidden in scripture. By extension, all forms of fortune telling are suspect, at the very least.Lehi
JDave Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 It is, according to the best understanding I have, because playing cards form the basis of the tarot deck used for fortune telling. It is not about gambling (or not exclusively), but about inviting such beliefs into our lives. Fortune telling is a large tent that includes necromancy, a practice explicitly forbidden in scripture. By extension, all forms of fortune telling are suspect, at the very least.Where did you hear that this was a basis for a "no face cards" tradition within the church?
LeSellers Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Where did you hear that this was a basis for a "no face cards" tradition within the church?Frankly, it's been far too long for me to specify the source. I'm nearly 64, and this knowledge is at least 50 years old, possibly much more. I grew up with it: heard my mother and father say the same thing. However, it was possibly in Seminary or Sacrament Meeting, maybe Sunday School. I doubt any of my Primary teachers would have raised the subject with pre-teens and younger children.In any case, it makes sense, given its internal logic. Whether anyone believes that fortune telling is satanic or not is an individual issue, one I'm unwilling to broach.Lehi
Scott Lloyd Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) ScotT Lloyd:The kids need a revote. Make it Puma's instead. Does that have sexual connotations as well? Call me out of touch or unhip or whatever, but I have to say the Cougars thing took me altogether by surprise. I had to check the Urban Dictionary to get up-to-speed on it. Edited February 22, 2012 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Problem is I heard all of those before I moved to Utah and not from LDS who had moved from Utah either....except the hospital one, never heard of that one before even with living in Utah about 12 years total so far.And the only thing intrinsically Utah-esque about the one-pair-of-earrings limit is that President Hinckley was in Utah when he made the pronouncement from the general conference pulpit.As for cola consumption, I think that's a generational thing more than anything else. I had older parents, and I grew up believing Coke was as bad as coffee. To this day, I can't stand it -- tastes like paint thinner to me. And I've never acquired a craving for the caffeine buzz.Somehow I don't feel too deprived. Edited February 22, 2012 by Scott Lloyd
thesometimesaint Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 I must be getting to be an old fuddy duddy. I didn't realize that cougars(pumas) had a sexual connotation.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) I must be getting to be an old fuddy duddy. I didn't realize that cougars(pumas) had a sexual connotation.It would seem that's why the Canyons District School Board found it insulting to middle-age women. I tend to think they overreacted from one or two calls from parents who spend too much of their time watching trashy TV shows. Edited February 23, 2012 by Scott Lloyd
volgadon Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Why? This is one that has always boggled my mind. During my younger days our family like to play hearts, cribbage, Pinochle, solitaire, spades, and an assortment of other card games. I never quite understood how face cards were evil. Coincidentally, none of my family members turned into gamblers, hung out at bars, or anything else. We just like to play cards.What Lehi said mainly holds true for the USA. The fortune-telling aspect of cards is actually not what bothers Russians, they tend to be rather keen on it.Face cards are associated with the rougher, unrespectable elements of society: gangsters, crooks, card sharps, gamblers, wastrels, drunks and junkies.The 1st counsellor in the branch presidency caught us once being taught by a recent convert how to play durak. http://www.pagat.com/beating/durak.htmlAn 1-1/2 hour lecture on how cards poison morals ensued.
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Oh jeez.Man, I'm with Kerry Shirts: bring on the Tarot! Even if it doesn't work quite as advertised, the pictures are so preeetty. 1
volgadon Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Oh jeez.Man, I'm with Kerry Shirts: bring on the Tarot! Even if it doesn't work quite as advertised, the pictures are so preeetty. Find a copy of John Collier's "Fancies and Goodnights" and read the story entitled "In the Cards." Absolutely hilarious.
Calm Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) Removed because I think it was in violation of copyright.You can get a copy on scribed.com, not sure if that is legal or not, but looks more so. Edited February 24, 2012 by calmoriah
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Hah! I found it myself in a different (slightly more legit) place, and it was, in fact, hilarious. For a related Tarot-story by Orson Scott Card, read (completely copyright-infringement-free on Googlebooks) The Changed Man and the King of Words. (Start on page 82, if the link doesn't automatically take you there. Should get you the full thing.) (This one is actually serious, and I think it's some sort of allegory about Joseph Smith, since the protagonist is named Joseph and his dad is named Alvin. It's quite haunting, I think.)
Storm Rider Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 It is, according to the best understanding I have, because playing cards form the basis of the tarot deck used for fortune telling. It is not about gambling (or not exclusively), but about inviting such beliefs into our lives. Fortune telling is a large tent that includes necromancy, a practice explicitly forbidden in scripture. By extension, all forms of fortune telling are suspect, at the very least.LehiThis seems to stretch so much out of proprotion. Do you realize what you would have to stop because the actions could lead to a misuse of them or to sin? Begin with eating and end with a marital relationship. This is why I resist such foolish traditions. They are just so silly to me. I don't know a single person who has ever used Tarot cards, not one. I know they exist, but I have never even seen them. I would expect that none of my family has either. I have seen a Ouiji board, but not Tarot cards. Can someone provide a single example of someone that played with face cards and then lead a life wrapped in the Tarot card?
volgadon Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 It is, according to the best understanding I have, because playing cards form the basis of the tarot deck used for fortune telling. It is not about gambling (or not exclusively), but about inviting such beliefs into our lives. Fortune telling is a large tent that includes necromancy, a practice explicitly forbidden in scripture. By extension, all forms of fortune telling are suspect, at the very least.LehiJoseph F. Smith's "Gospel Doctrine" has several pages on the evils of card playing, not one mentions fortune telling or tarot. He was concerned that card playing wastes time, is a game of chance and lends intself to cunning and cheating.
Calm Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Joseph F. Smith's "Gospel Doctrine" has several pages on the evils of card playing, not one mentions fortune telling or tarot. He was concerned that card playing wastes time, is a game of chance and lends intself to cunning and cheating.Hey, Uno cards are easier to cheat with, the colours and numbers show up great in my husband's glasses. I won every game for over an hour and he still didn't catch on, the little innocent. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) Joseph F. Smith's "Gospel Doctrine" has several pages on the evils of card playing, not one mentions fortune telling or tarot. He was concerned that card playing wastes time, is a game of chance and lends intself to cunning and cheating.The association with gambling has traditionally been the reasoning, I think.And it's not altogether unreasonable. I note that quite a few Church members have a rather casual attitude toward gambling, even though the Church explicitly opposes it. It would seem a short step from playing with face cards as a simple pastime and using them for wagering. Edited February 24, 2012 by Scott Lloyd
JDave Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 The association with gambling has traditionally been the reasoning, I think.And it's not altogether unreasonable. I note that quite a few Church members have a rather casual attitude toward gambling, even though the Church explicitly opposes it. It would seem a short step from playing with face cards as a simple pastime and using them for wagering.Couldn't it be just as easily argued that any game with dice is a short step away from using dice for wagering?The game played seems to have much more impact than the cards used. If you use Rook cards to play poker, isn't that a lot closer of a step towards gambling than using face cards to play Rummy with your family?
thesometimesaint Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 volgadon: I used to play cards, mostly Rummy, never did bet money on the outcome. It was a simple diversion to spend a few hours with friends and family. Lost interest after family grew up and left home.To some the whole religious thing is a waste of time. All I can tell them it is my time to waste.
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