Storm Rider Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 For humanity only Free Agency exists; God has graced with this one overriding truth to either choose to follow him or not. We can accept his Grace or reject it as our own choice. God may know how each individual would choose in any given situation, but his knowledge of our future actions does not remove our ability to choose our path. It simply means that he is God.
mfbukowski Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Lot's of folks do Bukowski.Not to sound scolding, but the question goes well beyond the usage of a debater on any topic. The view has a great impact on how we view God and our relationship to him.The difference on such viewpoints fueled a 30 year slaughter of Christian vs. Christian in less amenable times.Are we the children of a God that can freely choose his wisdom that leads us to a better place or to choose against his council and choose our own destruction?Or are we merely the playthings of a God that saves his favorite toys and burns the rest?You ask me, "who cares?"I do.I don't disagree with a thing you have said. Sometimes we let our praxis trip over our doxa.The worlds going to hell in a handbasket and the more hands we have to hold on the roller coaster ride, the better.Honestly I am aware of all the arguments on both sides and why they used to be considered important.My point was a rhetorical question. I believe those old ways of looking at the problem were mistaken and many philosophers agree with me. Or rather I agree with them I linked to some of the arguments earlier in the thread.The whole object is indeed to hold hands, but if we can take some of the hills and curves out of that roller coaster ride before we get on, it will make it easier for everyone Edited February 14, 2012 by mfbukowski
Calm Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Can't remember if someone posted this on the board or not or if I came across it in my wanderings so sorry if it's a repeat...not exactly on topic, but close enough:http://barrywallace.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/theology-foxtrot-style/ 1
Cobalt-70 Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 and want to hear your viewpoints. What do you think - is the future set in stone or not? Cause/effect deterministic universe? Or uncaused/unpredictable/random events with no accountability – through which the future can be unknown/open? or multiple effects that stem from the same cause… two roads diverged in a yellow wood….According to quantum mechanics, there is a certain amount of indeterminacy built into the universe, so that not even God can, for example, predict when a particular radioactive nucleus will decay. The universe is fundamentally undetermined.
changed Posted February 14, 2012 Author Posted February 14, 2012 According to quantum mechanics, there is a certain amount of indeterminacy built into the universe, ...that's debatable.
Rob Osborn Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 cThe heart of the matter one must ask is this- Does God have agency? Does he have the ability to make choices and act upon those choices? I assume he does have agency and that he does act within choices he makes. If that is true then even God cannot possibly knw the future otherwise he wouldn't be able to make choices. Because God thus makes "choices" He cannot possibly know the future.
changed Posted February 14, 2012 Author Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) cThe heart of the matter one must ask is this- Does God have agency? Does he have the ability to make choices and act upon those choices? I assume he does have agency and that he does act within choices he makes. If that is true then even God cannot possibly knw the future otherwise he wouldn't be able to make choices. Because God thus makes "choices" He cannot possibly know the future.Yes, God has agency, He has the ability to act on His choices, and because He knows Himself (and everyone else), and knows what choices He will make (and everyone else), He knows the future.Example: I know, that within my immediate future, I will warm up and eat some sweet potato fries. This future is set in stone - how do I know it? because this is the future I choose, I'm willing it to happen, I'm causing it to happen myself with my own free agency. Edited February 14, 2012 by changed
JDave Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Yes, God has agency, He has the ability to act on His choices, and because He knows Himself (and everyone else), and knows what choices He will make, He knows the future. That sounds like it requires hard determinism.
changed Posted February 14, 2012 Author Posted February 14, 2012 That sounds like it requires hard determinism.mmmmm... sweet potato fries. My deterministic future came true, what do you know?
Cobalt-70 Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 that's debatable.God would be able to make such predictions only if he is the universe (i.e., pantheism), and in that case God predicts the universe by becoming the future. If he is merely observing the universe, as Mormons and most other theists teach, then quantum mechanics is a problem, because matter is in an indeterminate state until it is observed. God could predict the possible outcomes that might occur, and their probability, but not which outcome will occur until somebody (either God or us) makes an observation. If God were able to make such predictions, that fact would show up in "Bell's theorem" experiments.
JDave Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Example: I know, that within my immediate future, I will warm up and eat some sweet potato fries. This future is set in stone - how do I know it? because this is the future I choose, I'm willing it to happen, I'm causing it to happen myself with my own free agency.That is actually a pretty decent argument that I have heard with regards to God, omnipotence, and ominiscience. God has sufficient power and sufficient knowledge to promise certain things and assure that they will happen as promised. This doesn't require knowledge of actual facts about the future, rather it requires a good knowledge of what will likely happen and the power necessary to deal with any surprises. If your heat source for those sweet potato fries became unavailable, then you better have the necessary power or resources if you want to declare that future as set in stone. Edited February 14, 2012 by JDave 1
changed Posted February 14, 2012 Author Posted February 14, 2012 God would be able to make such predictions only if he is the universe (i.e., pantheism), and in that case God predicts the universe by becoming the future. If he is merely observing the universe,by only observing the TV guide (not becoming it) I can know what will be on TV tonight....and... it's debatable:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism#Quantum_mechanics_and_classical_physicsSome (including Albert Einstein) argue that our inability to predict any more than probabilities is simply due to ignorance.[36] The idea is that, beyond the conditions and laws we can observe or deduce, there are also hidden factors or "hidden variables" that determine absolutely in which order photons reach the detector screen. They argue that the course of the universe is absolutely determined, but that humans are screened from knowledge of the determinative factors. So, they say, it only appears that things proceed in a merely probabilistically determinative way. In actuality, they proceed in an absolutely deterministic way. These matters continue to be subject to some dispute. A critical finding was that quantum mechanics can make statistical predictions which would be violated if local hidden variables really existed. There have been a number of experiments to verify such predictions, and so far they do not appear to be violated. This would suggest there are no hidden variables, although many physicists believe better experiments are needed to conclusively settle the issue (see also Bell test experiments). Furthermore, it is possible to augment quantum mechanics with non-local hidden variables to achieve a deterministic theory that is in agreement with experiment. An example is the Bohm interpretation of quantum mechanics. This debate is relevant because it is easy to imagine specific situations in which the arrival of an electron at a screen at a certain point and time would trigger one event, whereas its arrival at another point would trigger an entirely different event (e.g. see Schrödinger's cat - a thought experiment used as part of a deeper debate).Thus, the world of quantum physics casts reasonable doubt on the traditional determinism that is so intuitive in classical, Newtonian physics. At the small scales, our reality does not seem to be absolutely determined. Yet this was precisely the subject of the famous Bohr–Einstein debates between Einstein and Niels Bohr. There is still no consensus. In the meantime, humans continue to benefit from the fact that reality obeys determined probabilities at the quantum scale. Such adequate determinism (see Varieties, above) is the reason that Stephen Hawking calls Libertarian free will "just an illusion".[35] Compatibilistic free will (which is deterministic) may be the only kind of "free will" that can exist. However, Daniel Dennett, in his book Elbow Room, says that this means we have the only kind of free will "worth wanting". For even more discussion, see Free will.
mfbukowski Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Yes, God has agency, He has the ability to act on His choices, and because He knows Himself (and everyone else), and knows what choices He will make (and everyone else), He knows the future.Example: I know, that within my immediate future, I will warm up and eat some sweet potato fries. This future is set in stone - how do I know it? because this is the future I choose, I'm willing it to happen, I'm causing it to happen myself with my own free agency.Agreed!
Rob Osborn Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Yes, God has agency, He has the ability to act on His choices, and because He knows Himself (and everyone else), and knows what choices He will make (and everyone else), He knows the future.Example: I know, that within my immediate future, I will warm up and eat some sweet potato fries. This future is set in stone - how do I know it? because this is the future I choose, I'm willing it to happen, I'm causing it to happen myself with my own free agency. What level of knowing the future are we really speking about though? When we speak of making choices we do so in the context of having multiple choices to choose from as situations arise. If we have a God that knew everything- every detail about the future, then he would be incapable of making a choice as there ould be no options available and all he would be capable of is doing only exactly what was already in his exact destiny. In order for God to have choice, which I believe he does have, there must be an element of making choices from multiple options available.
Cobalt-70 Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 and... it's debatable:http://en.wikipedia....assical_physicsThere is indeed "lack of consensus" relating to how to interpret quantum mechanics. However, the only theory in which quantum mechanics is interpreted as deterministic is the "many worlds" interpretation. In that interpretation, the "multiverse" behaves deterministically, you cannot predict which universe you will find yourself in, in the future. Nor can God, because from his perspective, copies of you will exist in all the universes. You make one choice, and you end up in one universe, or make another and you end up in another universe. But to God, you have made both choices, and have ended up simultaneously in two parallel universes. The problem with this interpretation for Christianity is that it means that there are an extremely large number of Jesuses, and some of them did not die for our sins.
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Quantum physics is one of those topics that is mostly metaphor anyway- I don't see how one can decide if it is deterministic or not. No one else can either. Take your pickhttp://www.peterbyrne.info/documents/sad0711Byrn3p.pdf
mbh26 Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) The only differences we need to worry about are those which actually make a difference in our lives, and the rest are irrelevant.Are you referring to life as we know it, or are you including life after death? How do you know what makes a difference or not when you don't know anything about life after death?If you take away the after life and negate the possibility of an ultimate justice, for me selflessness doesn't make much sense either, at least not if you want to be happy. Edited February 18, 2012 by mbh26
mfbukowski Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 Are you referring to life as we know it, or are you including life after death? How do you know what makes a difference or not when you don't know anything about life after death?If you take away the after life and negate the possibility of an ultimate justice, for me selflessness doesn't make much sense either, at least not if you want to be happy.Being selfless makes me happy. I think among the greatest rewards available to mankind is selfless service.And yes, I am including life after death. Of course it may be argued that we don't know what will happen then, but heck I don't know for sure if I even will wake up tomorrow morning.Are you suggesting we never make any decisions because we don't know how they will turn out?You would be paralyzed by fear sitting at home. Of course that is itself a decision.
mbh26 Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 And yes, I am including life after death. Of course it may be argued that we don't know what will happen then, but heck I don't know for sure if I even will wake up tomorrow morning.No given that, it all makes sense to me. I've just found that for me personally the gospel doesn't make me happy right now. But I can function very well on simple hope if I'm given something to hope for. Does how we're programmed by our culture and surroudings as children add or detract from our free will? For instance, the Lord telling us in the scriptures that hell is endless in order to motivate us, yet not being completely true? Your actions are based upon false information, correct? I'm not saying it's good or bad, but we have been manipulated to an extent, have we not?
mfbukowski Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 Does how we're programmed by our culture and surroudings as children add or detract from our free will? For instance, the Lord telling us in the scriptures that hell is endless in order to motivate us, yet not being completely true? Your actions are based upon false information, correct? I'm not saying it's good or bad, but we have been manipulated to an extent, have we not?We get to the point where it really doesn't matter much. It sure feels like we make decisions- like whether or not to respond to this post and how. The fact that we are all enculturated doesn't enter into the discussion much in my mind- because we all ARE enculturated and we cannot escape that fact.I mean suppose we are all conditioned to believe in free will, so we do. How could we show that that is the case?How could one prove that "determinism" is true, or that "free will" is true? We cannot. Philosophers have debated it for centuries inconclusively.So as I see it, being enculturated is just one element of the argument in favor of determinism, but none of it can be proven.I am going to a ward dinner. I think I will go get ready now. I could wait about 15 minutes and not be late, or not go at all. But I think I will go and get ready and get there early just to prove that I can make the choice, and all the argument doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
mbh26 Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 I hope you didn't end up late for your ward dinner. I would like to get your perspective on a few more questions I've always ran into,Growing up LDS I was always taught that God knows everything, past, present, and future. But if He knows the future, does that effect decisions He has made in the past? Would that not be backward causation and illogical? I've since taken the view that God knows everything that can be known, which I know is rather unorthodox amongst LDS. I still cannot conceive how God could predict with certainty every fickle decision I make since like you it sure seems to me that we possess free will. If I were to leave heaven and come to earth, why wouldn't I have simply asked God if I would end up making things better for myself or worse? Is it possible that He knew from the beginning whether I would make it or not? Why would He let me go if He knew things would end up worse for me? Were we commanded to come to earth or was it an optional mission?
Zeta-Flux Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 But if He knows the future, does that effect decisions He has made in the past? Would that not be backward causation and illogical?That, in my opinion, is the crux of the matter.What would be the purpose of God revealing the future if not to affect the past? Otherwise this knowledge of the future would be pointless. So, if we want to posit that God knows the future, I think it is a given that we should also posit that this knowledge can lead to atemporal causation.My view of how God's knowledge of the future affects His decisions is that God does not measure time. He exists at all times, all at once, as it were. As we reach for the brightness of the perfect day, our understanding begins to be infinite, and we become one with all time. Our decisions are a confluence of this omni-temporality.
mfbukowski Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 ... But if He knows the future, does that effect decisions He has made in the past? Would that not be backward causation and illogical? I've since taken the view that God knows everything that can be known, which I know is rather unorthodox amongst LDS. I still cannot conceive how God could predict with certainty every fickle decision I make since like you it sure seems to me that we possess free will.If I were to leave heaven and come to earth, why wouldn't I have simply asked God if I would end up making things better for myself or worse? Is it possible that He knew from the beginning whether I would make it or not? Why would He let me go if He knew things would end up worse for me? Were we commanded to come to earth or was it an optional mission?If he knows the future and all things, he also knows the right way to answer a question which will not get us all mixed up in contradictory language which sounds like it might be "logical".We have to accept, I think, the idea that he may know everything, but we ultimately don't have much of a clue how all this works, and leave it up to him and just live our lives without turning our brains into pretzels.I think that that attitude is not only common sense, it is well grounded in a Wittgensteinian perspective that most of the "problems" of philosophy grow out of linguistic misunderstandings.Sorry if that's not an answer, but the bottom line is I think that answers to your questions, put that way, are not possible
mfbukowski Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 "Causation" in philosophy is a very thorny issue, but I think it would not be a problem for an omniscient God to know the future well enough to cover every possible iteration of what a dummy ant- brained human (like us) might or might not do and then pick the best choice.For all I know, "backward causation" may be not much of a problem for an omniscient being who created, or is used to manipulating, time "all the time".But frankly, I'm not too worried about the alleged problem.
Rob Osborn Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Think of it as a computer program. If God did know everything then it would be as if he were just following a computer program of the which he would not control the input or output and thus- he himself would not possess free will either. To literally "know everything" would mean that every actin we made or God himself made was predetermined and always known infinitely into the future. Thus it would be just as if the Gods themselves had a master script that they possessed that dictated every decision or action that they would make and all of their children would make. But, that isn't free will it isn't agency, or anything other than an unchangeable future. This is why we have to abandon such silliness. I believe that God can know the various outcomes of decisions to some extent but it would still have to incorporate the whole "if this then that" approach. In the scriptures, a lot of prophecy relies on the "if this then that" approach especially when it comes to promises such as those given to us in America- if we worship God, then he will protect us but if we won't then he will let us be destroyed- that much is true- one of at least two outcomes. We have to believe that we really do make decisions and that God himself does not possess the ability to know beforehand every decisio we will make. i could strongly argue that if God did know every decision we will make then God himself would be evil as he himself would be the very author of it creating Lucifer exactly for the cause that he would be satan.
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