wenglund Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 My opinion is God could have judged us without mortality, we being in Gods presence probably would have said "I would never sin against you God, never" so we all come to earth to prove to ourselves what will happen and then in end we each knowing our actions will say God is just for I received my reward, whatever kingdom it may be.In a way, I agree.However, more important to me, the attainment of an eternal kingdom isn't so much a function of God's judgment as it is a function of personal growth.Think of it as like, in principle, to becoming board certified as a medical doctor. Even if the state board were to be omniscient and were to know that a child would grow up to become a board certified doctor, it wouldn't make sense to license the child as a board certified doctor and forgo the educational process. The child needs to go through the process, not just to realize that the board certification is just, but more importantly in order for child to become a doctor and for the certification to make sense and be valid.In short, I am talking about a law irrevocably decreed in heaven. (See D&C 130:20-21)Said another way, the existence we attain to in the future eternities is a function of personal growth through free-will obedience to laws, and not a function of foreknowledge, though our eternal attainments may be foreknown by God.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
mbh26 Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) That's as good an answer as I can ask for mfbukowski, just wanted to hear your opinion on it.I remember reading an LDS researcher on near death experiences. One question posed to him was why nobody was ever instructed in a near death experience to get baptized into the LDS Church and perform the essential ordinances. Most people come back from NDEs with a view of importance in the general religion, but few espouse a particular faith and very rarely a different faith from what they were raised with. The authors response was that such instruction would compromise free agency. I found that explanation less than satisfying. But from your perspective as LDS, is that really all there is to the answer to the query of why few if any are told to join the Mormon church? Edited February 20, 2012 by mbh26
mfbukowski Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 That's as good an answer as I can ask for mfbukowski, just wanted to hear your opinion on it.I remember reading an LDS researcher on near death experiences. One question posed to him was why nobody was ever instructed in a near death experience to get baptized into the LDS Church and perform the essential ordinances. Most people come back from NDEs with a view of importance in the general religion, but few espouse a particular faith and very rarely a different faith from what they were raised with. The authors response was that such instruction would compromise free agency. I found that explanation less than satisfying. But from your perspective as LDS, is that really all there is to the answer to the query of why few if any are told to join the Mormon church?Well I think there are a lot of answers to that- one is that gaining a testimony even as a spirit, I am sure is something an individual must do for oneself. I mean if we could just be told that the church was true by someone and then accept it, everyone would be a member.I don't think the spirit world is that different from this one- and we believe there are missionaries there who still have to "preach" in some sense- whatever that means in context.So yes, it would be a breach of agency, but the biggest aspect of that for me is that we must all develop our own testimonies. One advantage of being in the spirit world is that we know for sure there is life after death- but we still have to find the right path for us, even there, and make a decision to convert.
Zeta-Flux Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 "Causation" in philosophy is a very thorny issue, but I think it would not be a problem for an omniscient God to know the future well enough to cover every possible iteration of what a dummy ant- brained human (like us) might or might not do and then pick the best choice.For all I know, "backward causation" may be not much of a problem for an omniscient being who created, or is used to manipulating, time "all the time".But frankly, I'm not too worried about the alleged problem.It's even more complicated than that.If we accept the basics of the theory of relativity, then when something moves faster than the speed of light it travels back in time. If God knows what is going on all over the universe, he by necessity knows things before they happen.
mfbukowski Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 It's even more complicated than that.If we accept the basics of the theory of relativity, then when something moves faster than the speed of light it travels back in time. If God knows what is going on all over the universe, he by necessity knows things before they happen.There you go!
mbh26 Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 It just seems to me like things happen all the time that one could call a breach of agency. What exactly the definition of, "a breach of agency," is escapes me right now.
mfbukowski Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 It just seems to me like things happen all the time that one could call a breach of agency. What exactly the definition of, "a breach of agency," is escapes me right now.Well I meant it in the same way you did when you said "compromises free agency".I see agency kind of like a contract with God. That contract would be breached in a sense if he interfered with our agency.
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