Priesthood Ban - Evidence For When It Began?

[lachrymolotov]

So culture is more powerful that God and/or the Holy Ghost?

[Calm]

Since the Spirit operates by the choice of the individual, for some, yes, they allow themselves to be influenced more by culture than by God. This is why temptations are actually tempting.

For specific individuals, unless there is some way to know what they would be like absent any influence of God, how would one measure which influence is actually more powerful?

[thesometimesaint]

Amazing that if someone LDS, isn't perfect(There was only one perfect person) somehow they're not good enough to pray to God and get an answer.

[cinepro]

I think that many who are not of critic persuasion find Brigham to be a brillant organizer and a builder of a state. And they consider Joseph and Brigham to be innovators. The mormon exception is a marvel to behold. From a small upstate new york sect to a relgion that can now boast of two republican candidates for president with a world wide membership is a miracle in itself.

Who has more admiration for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young: someone who believes that they did what they did with God's help and guidance, or someone that believes they did it all without God's help?

[Bernard Gui]

Alma doesn't sound nearly so picky:

Nothing about lineage, and if anyone knew about lineage, it was those Book of Mormon prophets!

If one looks up "out of context" in Wikipedia, this

last post is the only thing on the page.

Bernard

[why me]

Who has more admiration for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young: someone who believes that they did what they did with God's help and guidance, or someone that believes they did it all without God's help?

I don't know. But those who are nonmembers and neutral will find both Joseph and brigham to be good organizers and leaders and at least one who created a religion (that is now world wide) against unbeatable odds considering the persecution of the church in the early days. Quite an achievement for both individuals.

And believers would say that nothing would have been accomplished without the help of god and both men were led by god.

[cinepro]

If one looks up "out of context" in Wikipedia, this

last post is the only thing on the page.

Bernard

What's the context that would indicate that in Alma 13, the priesthood was being restricted to "a very small number of men" and that in this case "they are all identified, either by name or as a well-defined group, in the LDS standard works. All others were excluded by God"?

I don't see anything about Alma 13 in the wikipedia on "context", but it does say this about the population of Ammonihah:

Ammonihah was a city with a diverse population. A large portion of the people were descendants of Nephi, Zoram, Sam, Jacob, Joseph, Nephi’s sisters, and others who had separated themselves from the Lamanites five hundred years earlier. (2 Ne. 5:6.) Also living among the Nephites in Ammonihah in 82 B.C. were some of the people of Zarahemla—Mulekites who forty years earlier outnumbered the Nephites and could still be distinguished from them. (Omni 1:19; Mosiah 25:2, 4.) Descendants of the priests of Noah and daughters of the Lamanites were another segment of the population. (Mosiah 25:12.) It is entirely possible that full-blooded Lamanites were also in Ammonihah at this time: missionary work by the sons of Mosiah had instigated friendly relations between some Lamanites and Nephites, and Ammonihah was apparently close to the border between Nephite and Lamanite land. (See Alma 23:18. For location of Ammonihah, see Alma 8:3, 6; Alma 22:28; Alma 25:2.) The diversity of peoples in Ammonihah was great enough that when Amulek introduced himself to Alma, he first identified himself by saying, “I am a Nephite.” (Alma 8:20.)^[3]

Odd that he forgot to mention the whole lineage thing.

But as I've mentioned before, both guesses about the origin of the priesthood ban fall flat for me for reasons that are obvious.

The "ancient ancestor" theory doesn't work based on population genetics. Namely, the intermingling of peoples would cause such a curse to quickly spread throughout the entire world (with the exception of totally isolated tribes). Thousands of years later, the "blood" of the cursed race would run through the veins of just about everyone alive. By 1830, everyone alive would have at least one ancestor who had the curse, so no one could have the Priesthood.

The "pre-mortal curse" seems unlikely based on the way the ban was implemented and removed. The most logical way to "ban" someone from the priesthood is to send them to Earth in a location and era where there is no priesthood to begin with. If race is a spiritual characteristic, then it seems odd that the specific spirits who were effected by the ban (i.e. joined the Church after 1850 and died before 1978) were also those same spirits meant to be banned from the priesthood. If race isn't a spiritual characteristic, then it is interesting that God chose the black African race to be signifiers of the ban at precisely the same time those people would be facing tremendous persecution.

I suspect if God were behind the Priesthood Ban, he would have chosen the Musha-Dama tribe of western Brazil, which still hasn't been discovered and lives in total isolation. All the spirits who were "cursed" would simply be sent to that tribe, and when it was time to lift the curse, an angel could be sent to teach them the gospel, or He could inspire missionaries to discover them.

Edited December 27, 2011 by cinepro

[why me]

I think Brigham (although not perfect) was the right man to preserve the Saints after Joseph's death. Just as President Hinkley was the perfect man to lead the church into the media age. I don't think I would have assigned either man to the others responsibilities.

This is true. What is stange is that the so called strange things BY said were in the journal of discourses. And these discourses were in many american members' homes. They were standards for many lds libraries. Now did people read them? I think so. Did people see the comments that the critics are pruning from the journals. I think so. But not much hay was made of it. It only has been recently with the advent of the internet that critics seem to enjoy pruning his words and attempting to make a harvest of apples. However, when one has the complete journals, the amount of beautiful things that BY said in those discourses far out weigh what the critics prune.

[LeSellers]

these [the journal of] discourses were in many american [sic] members' homes.

Odd for you to say this, as they were not published in USmerica, but in Britain, and were not published by the Church, but by a private (although sanctioned, possibly even "commissioned") party.

Many of us rely on a complete statement by Brother Brigham to the effect that his words were as good as scripture for us, the Saints, providing he had a chance to read and correct them. The usual sense we give this quotation is the brother Watt made errors in his transcription. No doubt, this was frequently true. But, it is equally true that Brother Brigham made mistakes himself. In one rather well known morning conference talk he gave a fiery sermon followed by an afternoon talk on the same subject. However, he prefaced the second address by saying something along the lines of "This morning, you heard what Brother Brigham had to say on this subject. I will now give you the Lord's position." The talk completely reversed his earlier stance.

Lehi

Edited December 27, 2011 by LeSellers

[why me]

Odd for you to say this, as they were not published in USmerica, but in Britain, and were not published by the Church, but by a private (although sanctioned, possibly even "commissioned") party.

Lehi

“It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication, … Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal.” (President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Volume 18.)

“We take great pleasure in presenting to the Saints and the world the … the Journal of Discourses, which they will find contains rich treasures of information concerning the glorious principles of Eternal Life, as revealed through God’s anointed servants in these last days. All who read the discourses contained in this Volume are earnestly recommended to adapt them to their lives by practice, and we can confidently assure them that, in doing so, they are laying up a store of knowledge that will save and exalt them in the Celestial kingdom.” (Apostle Albert Carrington, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 15.)

Because of such statements above, the discourses were in many homes in the 1970's. I do believe that desseret books did publish them.

Edited December 27, 2011 by why me

[orion88]

The "ancient ancestor" theory doesn't work based on population genetics. Namely, the intermingling of peoples would cause such a curse to quickly spread throughout the entire world (with the exception of totally isolated tribes). Thousands of years later, the "blood" of the cursed race would run through the veins of just about everyone alive. By 1830, everyone alive would have at least one ancestor who had the curse, so no one could have the Priesthood.

This same curse would have passed onto Joseph when he married Asenath (the daughter of

Poti-Pherah, priest of On) and then to Manasseh and Ephraim which she bore to him. On is

the city of Heliopolis, a center for the worship of the sun god, Ra.

[LeSellers]

This same curse would have passed onto Joseph when he married Asenath (the daughter of

Poti-Pherah, priest of On) and then to Manasseh and Ephraim which she bore to him. On is

the city of Heliopolis, a center for the worship of the sun god, Ra.

Not if, like the pharoah, the priest of On was a Hyksos, i.e., a Semite. Further, "On" was both a city and a god. The Semitic priest of the city would not necessarily have been the pagan priest of the idol god.

There is also a Jewish tradition that Asenath was Joseph's niece, the daughter of Dinah and that she was adopted by Potipher after Sechem raped Dinah and her full brothers threw her out. (Radically trimmed to save space and time: see here.)

Lehi

Edited December 28, 2011 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

.

Edited December 28, 2011 by LeSellers