Church Never Go Astray Logical?

[Deborah]

from http://lds.org/gener...taining+prophet

"In general conference in October 1994, Elder David B. Haight said: “When we sustain the President of the Church by our uplifted hand, it not only signifies that we acknowledge before God that he is the rightful

possessor of all the priesthood keys; it means that we covenant with God that we will abide by the direction and the counsel that comes through His prophet. It is a solemn covenant” (Ensign, Nov. 1994, 14–15)."

"We know what it means to sustain: we will abide by the direction and counsel you give us. We will uphold you by our confidence, faith, and prayers."

Also a great talk on what it means to follow the prophet: http://lds.org/gener...peak+prophet%3f

Including:

"Fourth fundamental: “The prophet will never lead the Church astray” (“Fourteen Fundamentals,” 27).

Again we learn from the living prophets. President Wilford Woodruff said: “The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty” (Official Declaration 1)."

Obviously, however, there are those who think they have greater wisdom, forgetting that a prophet has the big picture.

[SeattleGrunge]

Obviously, however, there are those who think they have greater wisdom, forgetting that a prophet has the big picture.

I don't think most are making this argument that you think they are. I think most people would say that everything you quoted is true, we just have to make sure we aren't giving away our agency. I'll repost those quotes from BY that show that:

• 
  “I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful that they settle down in a state of blind selfsecurity, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwa[r]t the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give their leaders did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whisperings of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.” (Brigham Young - Discourses of Brigham Young, JD 9:150, http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-student-study-guide/dc-ssg-6-by-2.asp)
  
• 
  "I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied [...] Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord." (Brigham Young - JD 3:45)
  

[HeatherAnn]

I don't think most are making this argument that you think they are. I think most people would say that everything you quoted is true, we just have to make sure we aren't giving away our agency. I'll repost those quotes from BY that show that:

• 
  “I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful that they settle down in a state of blind selfsecurity, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwa[r]t the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give their leaders did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whisperings of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.” (Brigham Young - Discourses of Brigham Young, JD 9:150, http://seminary.lds....-ssg-6-by-2.asp)
  
• 
  "I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied [...] Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord." (Brigham Young - JD 3:45)
  

Excellent quotes, Seattle.

I'd like to expand on what Jesus taught about the kingdom of God.

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them & said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." - Luke 17:20, 21

"The best way to obtain truth & wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, & obtain divine teaching." - Joseph Smith

[Senator]

... it means that we covenant with God that we will abide by the direction and the counsel that comes through His prophet. It is a solemn covenant” (Ensign, Nov. 1994, 14–15)."

Even as I sit here and contemplate this statement, I am feeling (in a spirtitual way, if you will) that there is something not right with this as it stands. I'm having spiritual red flags!! I can only feel to confirm this statement with a conditional amendment; that I "will abide by the direction and counsel that comes through the prophet", only after personal spiritual witness that said direction and counsel is good and of God.

"We will uphold you by our confidence, faith, and prayers."

This is what I have in my heart when I lift my hand to sustain. It does not mean unconditional or blind obedience.

Obviously, however, there are those who think they have greater wisdom, forgetting that a prophet has the big picture.

I am sad that you feel the need to manipulate through chastisement and guilt.

I will simply say, that as long as I take breath in this mortal life and am confined to a realm of limited perspective and vision, as is the condition of all my fellow beings, prophet or otherwise, I shall proverbially sleep with one eye open in my acceptance of any man's claims of truth and divine mandate.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Senator

[erichard]

Perhaps I did not make myself clear, or perhaps you have a blind spot.

Everything I cited places the President of the Church on equal standing with every other member as far as how controversies over his transgressions are addressed through due process. A bishop manages these affairs in his ward, a stake president in his stake, and the First Presidency and Twelve for their members. They consider the controversies, whatever they may be and however they come to light....

D&C 107:81-84 puts the right to hold a trial over a President of the High Priesthood in the hands of a Bishop. (That is what "common council" means.) It could mean the local Bishop, or in this case probably the Presiding Bishop.

In this special trial the Bishop must be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood. It does not say they have to be the twelve Apostles, but probably they would be.

Verse 76 says that even a literal descendant of Aaron who is a bishop, who otherwise can be a Bishop without counselors, in the special trial over a President of the High Priesthood must also be assisted by these twelve counselors.

Since this trial is before a Bishop, it will not be a trial over spiritual matters, but only over temporal matters.

This is supported by the words in verse 80, speaking of "Presidency of the council of the High Priesthood" (which is called the First Presidency now):

"...for this is the highest council of the church of God, and

a final decision

upon controversies in spiritual matters."

One of the temporal things, however, that a Bishop can judge is any claim to spiritual gifts. This is a matter of honesty, which is a temporal matter. D&C 46:27 says:

And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them t

o discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.

All my concerns about the church Presidency are over their claim to revelation in decisions and teachings they have made. Such a trial would not determine the final truth of any revelation, but would determine if the claim of revelation was truly of God.

The fact that the D&C is held up as the Word of the Lord by the church does not guarantee that the church leadership have led the church to obey its teachings. I am particular concerned that the D&C is full of instructions the church does not live-- most which are not illegal if done properly.

Since I have a testimony that the D&C is true revelation, I do not trust the "answer" that the church leaders are now the law the church lives by, and we do not need to worry about what is in the D&C.

If there is a problem in the church it is a problem ultimately with the membership. If the membership need to repent of disbelief in the D&C revelations, then until they do the Lord will give them the leaders that they want. The Lord gives everyone the leaders they truly want.

Richard

[CV75]

D&C 107:81-84 puts the right to hold a trial over a President of the High Priesthood in the hands of a Bishop. (That is what "common council" means.) It could mean the local Bishop, or in this case probably the Presiding Bishop.

***cut***

All my concerns about the church Presidency are over their claim to revelation in decisions and teachings they have made. Such a trial would not determine the final truth of any revelation, but would determine if the claim of revelation was truly of God.

The details and protocols in D&C 107do not remove the obligation to sustain anyone in their office or calling until he is released.

I recognize proper reporting of transgression as a form of sustaining a leader, and even the raising of the hand in opposition at the time the manifestation is requested, but only until the matter is resolved by the governing body. If release from office is part of the resolution, sustaining becomes irrelevant; if not, sustaining is part of the oath and covenant of the priesthood.

Evidently you have a specific concern about a prophet’s claim to a particular revelation that hasn’t been resolved to your satisfaction.

The fact that the D&C is held up as the Word of the Lord by the church does not guarantee that the church leadership have led the church to obey its teachings. I am particular concerned that the D&C is full of instructions the church does not live-- most which are not illegal if done properly.

Since I have a testimony that the D&C is true revelation, I do not trust the "answer" that the church leaders are now the law the church lives by, and we do not need to worry about what is in the D&C.

I’m not sure where this is coming from. The leaders have their roles, the scriptures and individual testimony have their roles, as does personal revelation within one’s scope of responsibility and many other aspects of membership, leadership and progress in the Lord’s kingdom.

If there is a problem in the church it is a problem ultimately with the membership. If the membership need to repent of disbelief in the D&C revelations, then until they do the Lord will give them the leaders that they want. The Lord gives everyone the leaders they truly want.

Richard

It is evident your concern has expanded beyond the issue of sustaining the prophet to include the suspicion of disbelief of the Church membership on this point. However, there is no problem so great that the Lord hasn't given His church the resources to overcome them all and stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world (D&C 78:14).

The Lord gave the entire world Jesus Christ, to whom every knee will bow and every tongue confess whether they want Him as their leader or not. He gave the world Joseph Smith and every other latter-day prophet—they are not just for the LDS membership.

[Deborah]

I am sad that you feel the need to manipulate through chastisement and guilt.

LOL. If you feel guilt that is something internal not anything anyone else can project on you.

[Senator]

LOL. If you feel guilt that is something internal not anything anyone else can project on you.

You think its funny?

I don't.

I do not feel guilt, but recognize when someone has attempted to indict (guilt) another by way of a straw man fallacy.

[Calm]

Even as I sit here and contemplate this statement, I am feeling (in a spirtitual way, if you will) that there is something not right with this as it stands. I'm having spiritual red flags!! I can only feel to confirm this statement with a conditional amendment; that I "will abide by the direction and counsel that comes through the prophet" only after personal spiritual witness that said direction and counsel is good and of God.

Since I believe the Lord desires us to come to him continually with all our concerns and even thoughts, developing a relationship beyond simply one of asking to heal the negative in our life and expressing gratitude for the positive (this should be the minimum, not the majority of our communication with him IMO....at least eventually), I believe he has given us a church structure that while sound, has sufficient gaps in it so that if we desired those gaps filled, we need to seek out the Lord for ourselves.

One gap is the fallibility of our leaders. Seeking out personal witnesses for understanding and implementing direction from leadership is how that gap is closed in a spiritually beneficial way....at least as long as we approach that personal witness with a desire for personal understanding and not personal justification and keep out of our motivations any assumption of guilt or wrongdoing on the part of our leaders, iow we are not down on our knees because we are looking to find missteps in our leaders, rather we are on our knees to avoid taking missteps ourselves as well as taking the steps we take with knowledge as well as faith.

Questions about leadership can thus be spiritually beneficial to all involved when questions are not so much about doubt, but seeking understanding and a desire to sustain our leaders in the personal way the Lord desires of us. Our faith is not constructed as a one size fits all---it is an intimately individual experience even as it is played out in our essentially communal context---so our obedience should also be unique and individualized.

If we then encounter on occasion times where our personal witness does not align completely with leadership direction, any personal action resulting from that difference of understanding will be constructive rather than destructive, but we need to be very careful to keep our motivation pure, approaching the Lord in full humility and acceptance of his Will to avoid imposing our own misconceptions on our communication with the Lord....a extraordinarily easy trap we too often set for ourselves from what I have observed.

Edited November 16, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Perhaps much of the disagreement in this thread rests on the connotations or baggage each places on the term "question". If one is using the term in the same sense of "asking questions" implying a lack of knowledge on our part, then it becomes a matter of challenging ourselves...hopefully in order to improve our walk toward God. OTOH, if one is using the term within the context of challenging the legitimacy of others, we are seeking out the "questionable" in others which implies an expectation of or even desire to find lacks or even improprieties in leadership and their directions; understanding is then not our goal, but criticism or justification of opinion or behaviour, etc.

[Senator]

Since I believe the Lord desires us to come to him continually with all our concerns and even thoughts, developing a relationship beyond simply one of asking to heal the negative in our life and expressing gratitude for the positive (this should be the minimum, not the majority of our communication with him IMO....at least eventually), I believe he has given us a church structure that while sound, has sufficient gaps in it so that if we desired those gaps filled, we need to seek out the Lord for ourselves.

One gap is the fallibility of our leaders. Seeking out personal witnesses for understanding and implementing direction from leadership is how that gap is closed in a spiritually beneficial way....at least as long as we approach that personal witness with a desire for personal understanding and not personal justification and keep out of our motivations any assumption of guilt or wrongdoing on the part of our leaders, iow we are not down on our knees because we are looking to find missteps in our leaders, rather we are on our knees to avoid taking missteps ourselves as well as taking the steps we take with knowledge as well as faith.

Questions about leadership can thus be spiritually beneficial to all involved when questions are not so much about doubt, but seeking understanding and a desire to sustain our leaders in the personal way the Lord desires of us. Our faith is not constructed as a one size fits all---it is an intimately individual experience even as it is played out in our essentially communal context---so our obedience should also be unique and individualized.

If we then encounter on occasion times where our personal witness does not align completely with leadership direction, any personal action resulting from that difference of understanding will be constructive rather than destructive, but we need to be very careful to keep our motivation pure, approaching the Lord in full humility and acceptance of his Will to avoid imposing our own misconceptions on our communication with the Lord....a extraordinarily easy trap we too often set for ourselves from what I have observed.

I appreciate your comments and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[mfbukowski]

I appreciate your comments and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Yeah, she usually nails it.

[Calm]

. Thank you both.

[mfbukowski]

. Thank you both.

I'm just jealous!