Verum Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 Altersteve,While you may have your answers to those questions none of them are official for the church. The church has either no position on most of those or simply does not address them. The answers are simply, "we don't know" or that Lord will reveal in his time or that it is not important to salvation. That is the frustrating part. It seems inconsistent compared to Joseph's straight line communication with the Lord.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 Seriously Daddy-G, what don't I post that you don't find mocking or ignorant...maybe you would be best to just ignore anything I post...consider my posts having an "R" rating...not appropreate for all audiences.Play nice...
cinepro Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) Perhaps the saddest thing in all this is that some modern LDS are so used to the way things are (and apparently intent on justifying it) that we can't even imagine how things could be different.Teryl Givens said this in his FAIR Podcast, and I think it applies to the subject at hand very much...I think there's no question, just as the gifts faded in the primitive Church, so there seems to be a diminishment of the spiritual manifestations and gifts in the restored Church. To some extent, that's a function of any church that becomes institutionalized...normatized over time. And to some extent that was a deliberate strategy on the part of Church leaders who wanted to de-emphasize spiritual gifts.I think it's a natural process, I think Mormons have accommodated themselves in some ways by changing the lexicon of scriptural resources that they use to identify or define the nature of spiritual experience. For example, instead of focusing on those Book of Mormon episodes where we have angelic visitations or interaction with angelic beings, we emphasize those verses that originally were given to Joseph Smith to describe the translation process, that have to do with feelings and impressions and stupors of thought.And that has become the template, if you will, for revelation. So that's one way Mormons have accommodated themselves to a less charismatic church.(15:18)It's also possible that we find comfort in the lack of "Thus sayeth the Lord..." revelation coming from the Prophet. After all, if such things were plentiful and specific for the issues of our day, that might cut out a lot of wiggle room for those who carve out a wide path of doctrinal leeway based on arguments of "fallible prophets". If I were a firm believer in a particular geography for the Book of Mormon, I wouldn't want God to give President Monson a revelation on the matter, because there's a good chance he might say something I don't want to hear. As long as he doesn't, I would be free to believe almost anything I wish. Edited November 1, 2011 by cinepro
thesometimesaint Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 cinepro:I see no effort on the part of the Church to diminish the role of prophecy in the Church. In fact I see just the opposite. We are not to rely solely on the testimony of others. Further as wonderful as President Monson is he has no authority on how God tells me to councel with and lead my family.I eagerly await when God decides to tell us exactly where the Lehites lived. I suspect that it was in Mesoamerica, and there is a great deal of evidence to lead to that conclusion, but I will be the first one to sign on if God says it was some place else.
cinepro Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 Further as wonderful as President Monson is he has no authority on how God tells me to councel with and lead my family.That's a unique and interesting perspective. Do you know where I might read more about that in any Church publications on the subject?
erichard Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 In the days of Joseph Smith, God supposedly dictated word for word what Joseph was to dictate to his scribe. There are many examples of this process throughout the Doctrine and Covenants. ...So what happened? Why did God stop dictating revelations to his prophets? All we ever get now are feelings, emotions or as President hinkley put it…the wisperings of the still small voice...which is a nice way of saying...we don't hear God speaking word for word any longer. A far cry from what Joseph supposedly experienced....Hi Craig,I don't believe God tells His prophets "exactly" what to write. Rather, it is like this: For the still small voice dictateth not to the mind, but speaketh by the Spirit which taketh not away from his free agency, but alloweth him to use his own words and diction, howbeit it is My mind and will.The gift that Joseph had, was in my faith the same gift that the Prophets had in ancient Israel. I agree that there is no evidence that any LDS church leadership have had the gift Joseph had for over 120 years. Since the D&C is full of instructions the church does not live, possibly the problem is that The Lord will not give the church more revelation until they decide to try to fully live by what He has already given.However, there is evidence that the first three successors to Joseph had the gift. D&C 136 was received by President Young, for instance. If you want to read the known "Word of the Lord" revelations of Presidents Taylor and Woodruff I can give you links. The Lord has said that "by their fruits" ye shall know them. The fruits of Joseph's gift are the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. I can believe that revelation, like fruit, does not come continually, but comes "in season". I remain converted that the Second Book of Commandments (1961- present) is the true "in season" continuation of the gift that Joseph had.Richard
altersteve Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 Altersteve,While you may have your answers to those questions none of them are official for the church. The church has either no position on most of those or simply does not address them. The answers are simply, "we don't know" or that Lord will reveal in his time or that it is not important to salvation. That is the frustrating part. It seems inconsistent compared to Joseph's straight line communication with the Lord.It's not inconsistent at all. If you don't know the answer to something, take it up with the Lord. It's very consistent. And many of my answers are in fact official positions of the Church.
Avatar4321 Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 I assure you I have no agenda nor a desire to destroy anyone’s faith...However if what I post causes someone to think or test their faith...I have no problem with that...nor should anyone… for the only way someone should ever feel threatened by what I post is if what I have to say is shown to be true.On another point...I wonder if God still talks in Olde English...or if He has become more modern with time...but since he hasn't dictated any word for word revelation since Joseph...I guess we'll never know...You could simply seek Him out and find out for yourself.God will reveal Himself in our own language. Weakness and all.
Avatar4321 Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 My faith is tested all the time, by life; as are all people. You do not need to appoint yourself as our teacher and test us. Real life does this very well. Also the name of your thread seems a little disrespectful to our God. Maybe it is just how I see it, through my prism.I think your prism is working well in this case.God speaks to man. We can learn for ourselves the truth of all things if we seek Him sincerely in faith. And yet people decide to mock like our friend who started this thread. It's sad. God is reaching out just waiting for us to take a step toward Him And yet so few ask.It's like Nephi said,:"Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark. For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do" (2 Nephi 32:4-5)I just wish more people would be willing to ask.
Avatar4321 Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 How do you know God has not dictated any word for word revelation since Joseph?BernardHe doesn't.Isn't it odd, that people who claim they have no experience in revelation thinks that somehow makes them experts how absurd revelation is? 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 Teryl Givens said this in his FAIR Podcast, and I think it applies to the subject at hand very much...I personally find Givens's take on a diminishment of spiritual gifts odd. To me personally, one of the great hallmarks of the Church is the normalisation of spiritual manifestations, the routinisation of the charismatic.And the suggestion that Church leaders have sought this supposed diminishment is even odder, to me. Elder Holland visited my city about 3-4 years ago to speak at a gathering of members and investigators. He chose to focus his entire talk on the continuation of miracles and spiritual gifts in the Restored Church.
cinepro Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 I personally find Givens's take on a diminishment of spiritual gifts odd. To me personally, one of the great hallmarks of the Church is the normalisation of spiritual manifestations, the routinisation of the charismatic.And the suggestion that Church leaders have sought this supposed diminishment is even odder, to me. Elder Holland visited my city about 3-4 years ago to speak at a gathering of members and investigators. He chose to focus his entire talk on the continuation of miracles and spiritual gifts in the Restored Church.I think you just made Givens' point. Redefined "spiritual gifts" + managed expectations = church members who think things are as good, or better, than they ever were.
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 I think you just made Givens' point.Redefined "spiritual gifts" + managed expectations = church members who think things are as good, or better, than they ever were.Where exactly did I 'redefine' spiritual gifts? I mean precisely those mentioned in the relevant Article of Faith: tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healings, interpretations of tongues, etc. To which I'm happy to add such things as the ministration of angels, feeding crowds with next to nothing, restoring sight to blind, and so forth.
Avatar4321 Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 Where exactly did I 'redefine' spiritual gifts? I mean precisely those mentioned in the relevant Article of Faith: tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healings, interpretations of tongues, etc. To which I'm happy to add such things as the ministration of angels, feeding crowds with next to nothing, restoring sight to blind, and so forth.I was wondering that myself.
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