Does God Really Change?

[gdog]

Does God Really Change?

NO, but our understandings of what it is he wants us to do does.

Agreed!!

[cinepro]

Let's bottom-line it. Would you watch Desperate Housewives with the Prophet? If the answer is no then you shouldn’t watch it.

If I were watching TV with President Monson, I would probably let him pick the show. And if he wanted to watch Desperate Housewives, I would be polite and watch it with him.

I'm not very good at these hypotheticals. A few weeks ago, our EQ teacher tried to instill some sort of fear in us by asking us what we would do if we found out Jesus were in our Bishop's office and wanted to interview each of us. While I suppose such a scenario was supposed to bring to mind our dereliction in home teaching or addiction to pornography, my only thought was "Awesome! I've got sooooooo many questions!"

[gdog]

I'm talking about you. Stop judging.

Ok let me come clean here. I love to Watch Desperate Housewives. (yes I am a man and I am admiting this) I have not missed an episode in literally 5 years. My point is this. I know it isn't very good for ones deep down soul and a complete waist of time but I love the show and so does my wife but we ALL know it isn't what we should be doing but I can admit that. I don't condone it. We as Members do that way too much including me.

[gdog]

Because we know its ok to Judge if you're giving righteous Judgement.

Let me ask you a basic question. Why does coffee keep us from the Temple?

[gdog]

Because we know its ok to Judge if you're giving righteous Judgement.

We don't judge ourselves correctly or enough. Why do our bishops or church leaders need to advise us that Desperate Housewives isn't good for us. What is the spirit for? We know right and wrong but sometimes we just don't care.

[Saints Alive]

Let me ask you a basic question. Why does coffee keep us from the Temple?

It doesn't, not having a temple recommend keeps you from the temple. I once knew a man who was struggling with a tobacco addiction who was allowed to hold a recommend

[altersteve]

We don't judge ourselves correctly or enough. Why do our bishops or church leaders need to advise us that Desperate Housewives isn't good for us. What is the spirit for? We know right and wrong but sometimes we just don't care.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the very definition of a sin.

[gdog]

We all make excuses and use the "gospel" to cover it when we darn well know deep down when something isn't right. Joseph Smith was a master at this and we now in the church call his behavior "the human side of Joseph" "the earthly man" instead of labeling it a sin. The protection we douse him with is truly unbelievable. Nowadays I never here of a regular guy who is addicted to porn and somebody saying.....he is only human, and I dare say Joseph did some things that if compared went way beyond pornography and we all know what those things are so no need to bring them up. He even went so far as to say "God gave me no choice"

We tend to cling to the notion that God does change. 30 years ago as a youth I heard all the time on Sundays and Mutual about the negatives of tattoos and still hear it today. Today we see women getting fake breasts all over the church but "that is ok because God now allows for that??? Church leaders on this earth haven’t received any revelation on such an issue? We know women want larger breasts because Women want larger breasts… Period. Of course there are other reasons such as cancer and reconstructive surgery and we know that does not apply. How are larger breasts "better than receiving a tattoo? Why is this not being told to our young women? We all know exactly why the church doesn’t come out with any info on breast augmentation. Can you imagine if they did? How many plastic surgeons and women would fall under condemnation? How many people would get offended? It’s easy to back up things such as the word of wisdom, chastity, tithing, because those have been in the fabric of the church from the beginnings. Pornography is easy to condemn because the church isn’t losing money due to the churches efforts in battling it. Can you imagine if the church came out with a campaign on desecrating your bodies with selfish plastic surgery? Today we have all kinds of issues but the church wont speak out or at least not very loudly because they want to keep members from leaving and keep tithing money rolling in and I am fine with that but the church uses the “gospel” to wiggle out too much. It’s that simple.

Why does God disapprove of one thing and then 20 years later approve of it? We can say what I just described is all speculation and I can accept I am speculating but when faced with such questions and concerns that we all know are right and in front of our faces, many of members can’t discuss because it’s to threating to their belief system and sum it up by saying the spirit has told me the church is true and that is all I need to worry about.

Edited October 20, 2011 by gdog

[ldsfaqs]

God doesn't change in the sense of he's a perfected being and has mastered and knows and controls Eternal Law.

But God does do things according to "mortal" needs and requirements, and has "changed" all the time.

The biggest and most obvious example of changing is the Old to the New. Christianity only bears small resemblance to Judaism.

There were some significant changes there. Of course, it's fulfilling change/law, not to take away the law.

[ldsfaqs]

We all make excuses and use the "gospel" to cover it when we darn well know deep down when something isn't right. Joseph Smith was a master at this and we now in the church call his behavior "the human side of Joseph" "the earthly man" instead of labeling it a sin. The protection we douse him with is truly unbelievable. Nowadays I never here of a regular guy who is addicted to porn and somebody saying.....he is only human, and I dare say Joseph did some things that if compared went way beyond pornography and we all know what those things are so no need to bring them up. He even went so far as to say "God gave me no choice"

You make a lot of false assumptions. Anti-mormon versions of Joseph sins is not the truth..... Thus, the Church isn't "covering" for Joseph at all. What actual mistakes he might have made are well documented and we admit such.

We tend to cling to the notion that God does change. 30 years ago as a youth I heard all the time on Sundays and Mutual about the negatives of tattoos and still hear it today. Today we see women getting fake breasts all over the church but "that is ok because God now allows for that??? Church leaders on this earth haven’t received any revelation on such an issue? We know women want larger breasts because Women want larger breasts… Period. Of course there are other reasons such as cancer and reconstructive surgery and we know that does not apply. How are larger breasts "better than receiving a tattoo? Why is this not being told to our young women? We all know exactly why the church doesn’t come out with any info on breast augmentation. Can you imagine if they did? How many plastic surgeons and women would fall under condemnation? How many people would get offended? It’s easy to back up things such as the word of wisdom, chastity, tithing, because those have been in the fabric of the church from the beginnings. Pornography is easy to condemn because the church isn’t losing money due to the churches efforts in battling it. Can you imagine if the church came out with a campaign on desecrating your bodies with selfish plastic surgery? Today we have all kinds of issues but the church wont speak out or at least not very loudly because they want to keep members from leaving and keep tithing money rolling in and I am fine with that but the church uses the “gospel” to wiggle out too much. It’s that simple.

You have a lot of wonderful fantasy's about the Church and the women in it. A truly "warped" mindset that is absent of reality.

Why does God disapprove of one thing and then 20 years later approve of it? We can say what I just described is all speculation and I can accept I am speculating but when faced with such questions and concerns that we all know are right and in front of our faces, many of members can’t discuss because it’s to threating to their belief system and sum it up by saying the spirit has told me the church is true and that is all I need to worry about.

Since there is no such thing, your question is moot.

What seemed "fascist" banned to you in the past never was. There is always the "standards", and the standards are taught. After that, we are to love each other encourage change and not to fall into sin, but still love others. Just because when you were younger you looked at things black and white, doesn't mean the Church did.

What do you want us to do, go around telling women with breast implants (as "few" that exist, almost never see such a thing) that they are going to burn in hell and should remove them??? You want us to tell an older woman who simply want's to look better that she can't remove some "lines" in her skin, that she is going to burn in hell if she does so???

Let me guess..... If someone watches a rated "R" movie or works in the Casino, they going to burn in hell also??? Not everything is black and white buddy. Get over yourself your elitism and judgmentalism.

[Duncan]

It's the samething with listening to Elvis 50 years ago when my Mom was a teen and now people don't even think twice about playing it at Church dances or even Jerry Lee Lewis. I believe though that stuff that society thought was not taboo 50 years now is taboo (have you seen ads from the '50's?) and vice verse

[Mudcat]

We know and claim quit often that God is never changing.

Malachi 3:6

For I am the Lord, I do not change.

Let me give a very specific example of where I am going with this. When I was young I used to watch Three's Company on TV during the late 70's and early 80's. At that time, that show was very much on the fringes of inappropriate not only for kids but adults alike. I do know an apostle at the time warned against watching the show especially children. Now a days the show can be seen on TV Land and it has become a show that almost seems kid friendly and now we of course don’t talk about the “bad” affects the show has on our spirituality.

Now take the current show Desperate Houswives. The comparison of the brash inappropriateness to Three’s Company is quit obvious, as are most TV and movies in general compared to 25 years ago.

We all know how straight in the face smutty Desperate Housewives really is and we all know multi thousands of LDS members watch it either regularly or periodically. We can also safely know that Jesus would not be relaxing on a couch with us while we indulge in such a display of violence, sex, adultery, and many other atrocities.

Now here is the dilemma that I see. Take these shows and magically place them in the time of the early church. This straight forward trash would be so rejected it wouldn’t even be funny. Just imagine the repercussions not only in the LDS church but any church. They would condemn you most likely to be as of the Devil. In our heart of hearts we all know that viewing these shows and other shows and movies are not good for us and frankly waist time and don’t add much of any to our spiritual lives but…….many of us condone this viewing in various ways. Does God now approve of us watching these things? I assume he didn’t back a couple hundred years ago, 25 years ago or today. How many PG-13 movies would Jesus approve of us watching? Seriously…ask your self that question.

Why do we condone in immersing ourselves in something clearly not assisting in our spiritual growth? Why do some of us make excuses for something we know we shouldn’t be doing? Why does the church not put more emphasis on this? Is God now allowing us to partake but not those people who lived 100 years ago???

Hi gdog,

I can't answer from the perspective of a believing LDS, but as a non-LDS Christian I do certainly share the sentiment of frustration you seem to have with the situation. In fact it was yesterday that I was speaking with my church's music minister about something along these lines.

In the early Church, these folks were immersed in very pagan culture that seemed to pervade Rome. Ritual orgies, killing for killings sake in the coliseums, and so forth. Somehow these people not only resisted the culture of their day, but through the Gospel of Christ they did much to change the culture for the better. Considering the fact that they were being persecuted, killed off, tortured, their scriptures confiscated where possible and destroyed it was amazing that they had the success that they did.

It seems that lately.. on a very escalating scale, we have done just the opposite. Where the early Christians outnumbered and immersed in a culture that was set against them. We, in general, have set the culture against ourselves and have seemed to embrace those things that we should hate the most. We are loosing on purpose.

I ask myself why this is happening. Perhaps we are all party to, or witness of a generation or rebellion against God and we are getting exactly what we want. I dunno.

I think one thing, from my perspective, that is handicapping of LDS on the matter, is the primacy of "free agency" that seems to promoted to some degree. (edited a bit of a diatribe on the subject).

It just doesn't make sense to me that not taking steps to change the culture, under the banner of free agency, is troubling.

I don't want to sound to pejorative, we evangelicals have our issues too.

IMO, we have lost sight of the understanding that until his return, we Christians are the body of Christ on Earth. Being the body of Christ, is a somewhat of a misnomer, for we have crippled the body or stood by and watched it's crippling.

Somewhere along the way, the bulk of Christianity seems to have decided that changing the world is a bad idea.

I am a bit disgusted thinking about it.. with myself, just as much as anyone else.

gdog, what do you think should be done about it?

Regards,

Mudcat

Edited October 21, 2011 by Mudcat

[gdog]

You make a lot of false assumptions. Anti-mormon versions of Joseph sins is not the truth..... Thus, the Church isn't "covering" for Joseph at all. What actual mistakes he might have made are well documented and we admit such.

Please list some of the mistakes/sins that Joseph made that the church has made fully known? Is Polygamy one of them? Do you truly believe Joseph was coerced by an angel to take on other wives? If not, do you have an answer why it was performed? As you knowt is part of our doctrine and we know it will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom.

You have a lot of wonderful fantasy's about the Church and the women in it. A truly "warped" mindset that is absent of reality.

This is literally comical. I will say this now.... You are way off base. Where do you live? North most parts of Canada? So your telling me LDS women doesn’t enhance their breasts or just a few? My own neighbor had it done who is literally right next door to me and two others in our ward have had augmentation performed and those are just the ones my wife and I are aware of. Please give me an explanation why the church does not speak out more on unnecessary breast augmentation? I would like to here that one. Utah Valley has one of highest percentage of breast augmentation in the ENTIRE country. Please be more informed.

Since there is no such thing, your question is moot.

What seemed "fascist" banned to you in the past never was. There is always the "standards", and the standards are taught. After that, we are to love each other encourage change and not to fall into sin, but still love others. Just because when you were younger you looked at things black and white, doesn't mean the Church did.

"Fascist"...I love your word of embellishment to make your points more "valid". Let me give you an example. When I was young in the 70's and 80's we were told in the church COUNTLESS times to not to watch rated R films. Rated R was brought up so many times it was burn into our brains and that is just fine. Now take today. You and I know many PG-13 films today would clearly be R rated back in the 80's. Why are PG-13 films not being disused by the church and not warned about like it was 25 years ago? I asked my son who is 13 if he hears much about not watching PG-13 films. He said NO but he does here some about R. Why do some active members clearly watch PG -13 films FULLY knowing back in the day the Prophet specifically targeted "R" and many of the PG-13 films are much worse that R rated films back in the day. Let me guess, God changed his mind on the rating system. If Brigham young saw what we were watching now a days he would have been way beyond discussed. But now it’s “more acceptable” Why is that? Are we more spiritually knowledgeable and ready to take on violence and sex into out spiritual hearts? Is it because we as people make the rules for our own agendas? or is that God relaying to his LDS leaders not to worry about stuff like that even thought they did in the past?

What do you want us to do, go around telling women with breast implants (as "few" that exist, almost never see such a thing) that they are going to burn in hell and should remove them??? You want us to tell an older woman who simply want's to look better that she can't remove some "lines" in her skin, that she is going to burn in hell if she does so???

Very easily answered....First off….Not hell but maybe not the top of the Celestial Kingdom. Drinking a beer won't get to you to hell either but it doesnt mean it's right. The church should outwardly warn against augmentation for reasons other than if it is necessary and tell of the consequences. They outwardly do about coffee tea and tobacco. They do about tattoos (defiling your body) and I assume you think tattoos are worse that larger fake breasts? They do about not paying tithing, they do about pornography, they do about bad language, they do about treating your spouse incorrectly, they do about if you “don’t” read your scriptures or attend the temple. We could go on.

Let me guess..... If someone watches a rated "R" movie or works in the Casino, they going to burn in hell also??? Not everything is black and white buddy. Get over yourself your elitism and judgmentalism.

• Please list some of the mistakes/sins that Joseph made that the church has made fully known? Is Polygamy one of them? Do you truly believe Joseph was coerced by an angel to take on other wives? If not, do you have an answer why it was performed? As you knowt is part of our doctrine and we know it will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom.
  

• This is literally comical. I will say this now.... You are way off base. Where do you live? North most parts of Canada? So your telling me LDS women doesn’t enhance their breasts or just a few? My own neighbor had it done who is literally right next door to me and two others in our ward have had augmentation performed and those are just the ones my wife and I are aware of. Please give me an explanation why the church does not speak out more on unnecessary breast augmentation? I would like to here that one. Utah Valley has one of highest percentage of breast augmentation in the ENTIRE country. Please be more informed.
  

• "Fascist"...I love your word of embellishment to make your points more "valid". Let me give you an example. When I was young in the 70's and 80's we were told in the church COUNTLESS times to not to watch rated R films. Rated R was brought up so many times it was burn into our brains and that is just fine. Now take today. You and I know many PG-13 films today would clearly be R rated back in the 80's. Why are PG-13 films not being disused by the church and not warned about like it was 25 years ago? I asked my son who is 13 if he hears much about not watching PG-13 films. He said NO but he does here some about R. Why do some active members clearly watch PG -13 films FULLY knowing back in the day the Prophet specifically targeted "R" and many of the PG-13 films are much worse that R rated films back in the day. Let me guess, God changed his mind on the rating system. If Brigham young saw what we were watching now a days he would have been way beyond discussed. But now it’s “more acceptable” Why is that? Are we more spiritually knowledgeable and ready to take on violence and sex into out spiritual hearts? Is it because we as people make the rules for our own agendas? or is that God relaying to his LDS leaders not to worry about stuff like that even thought they did in the past?
  

• Very easily answered....First off….Not hell but maybe not the top of the Celestial Kingdom. Drinking a beer won't get to you to hell either but it doesnt mean it's right. The church should outwardly warn against augmentation for reasons other than if it is necessary and tell of the consequences. They outwardly do about coffee tea and tobacco. They do about tattoos (defiling your body) and I assume you think tattoos are worse that larger fake breasts? They do about not paying tithing, they do about pornography, they do about bad language, they do about treating your spouse incorrectly, they do about if you “don’t” read your scriptures or attend the temple. We could go on. Let me guess..... If someone watches a rated "R" movie or works in the Casino, they going to burn in hell also??? Not everything is black and white buddy. Get over yourself your elitism and judgmentalism.
  

• "elitism" That is a good one I must admit. Partaking in coffee isn't black and white right. Oh wait...The WOW made it abundantly black and white. If I gain 100 pounds and get diabetes because of it that isnt black and white? Compare this... Being relatively healthy but drinking coffee or ruining my body with no exercise and poor eating habits and potentially killing myself due to my bad decisions. That is not black and white to you? Then what the H@$* is? Coffee can keep you out of the temple but abusing your “temple” that God has given you doesn’t? Seems pretty black and white to me and when you compare the two it’s truly ridiculous. But the last thing the church will do is tell people what they should eat even though thousands of LDS and non LDS people die due to not taking care of their bodies. They don’t worry about members killing themselves but they worry about some roasted coffee beans. Can you imaging if coffee was not in the WOW and they decided to throw that one in the mix today? Let me tell you’re this….IT WOULDN’T WORK. Yep you’re right, not black and white at all.
  

Edited October 21, 2011 by gdog

[gdog]

Hi gdog,

I can't answer from the perspective of a believing LDS, but as a non-LDS Christian I do certainly share the sentiment of frustration you seem to have with the situation. In fact it was yesterday that I was speaking with my church's music minister about something along these lines.

In the early Church, these folks were immersed in very pagan culture that seemed to pervade Rome. Ritual orgies, killing for killings sake in the coliseums, and so forth. Somehow these people not only resisted the culture of their day, but through the Gospel of Christ they did much to change the culture for the better. Considering the fact that they were being persecuted, killed off, tortured, their scriptures confiscated where possible and destroyed it was amazing that they had the success that they did.

It seems that lately.. on a very escalating scale, we have done just the opposite. Where the early Christians outnumbered and immersed in a culture that was set against them. We, in general, have set the culture against ourselves and have seemed to embrace those things that we should hate the most. We are loosing on purpose.

I ask myself why this is happening. Perhaps we are all party to, or witness of a generation or rebellion against God and we are getting exactly what we want. I dunno.

I think one thing, from my perspective, that is handicapping of LDS on the matter, is the primacy of "free agency" that seems to promoted to some degree. (edited a bit of a diatribe on the subject).

It just doesn't make sense to me that not taking steps to change the culture, under the banner of free agency, is troubling.

I don't want to sound to pejorative, we evangelicals have our issues too.

IMO, we have lost sight of the understanding that until his return, we Christians are the body of Christ on Earth. Being the body of Christ, is a somewhat of a misnomer, for we have crippled the body or stood by and watched it's crippling.

Somewhere along the way, the bulk of Christianity seems to have decided that changing the world is a bad idea.

I am a bit disgusted thinking about it.. with myself, just as much as anyone else.

gdog, what do you think should be done about it?

Regards,

Mudcat

It's nice to see that somebody recognizes this and who seems to have an open mind. Let me say this.... I do not claim to always practice some of the things that I talk about but what I can say is that I at least can acknowledge them and many of these improvements that I need to make are on my mind and I don't make up excuses for why I do them and I look for ways to improve but always don't succeed.

As far as what can be done about it? That is a daunting question and task. The church has changed and my Mother who has been in it for 70 years has seen the changes and some she does not agree with but she is a very faithful Member and sees the good although not your hook line and sinker type. I have seen it change in the last 30 years.

I don't claim change is always wrong. I believe in being progressive but it's clear the leaders of the LDS church will shun certain behaviors in order to keep “order”. They want people to stay in the church even though speaking out on many issues in the world and within the church should surely be discussed but they are worried about hurting feelings and various other reasons. If Jesus were here on this earth now he would not be addressing such things? Those that believe in Christ would all admit that he would. So why doesn’t the LDS church feel the same way?

[Zakuska]

Let me ask you a basic question. Why does coffee keep us from the Temple?

Becasue we as a people have determined that it does.

Its quite easy for some one to be a secret coffee drinker and still lie and get a temple recommend. But what does one do when ones concience convicts them?

[Mudcat]

It's nice to see that somebody recognizes this and who seems to have an open mind. Let me say this.... I do not claim to always practice some of the things that I talk about but what I can say is that I at least can acknowledge them and many of these improvements that I need to make are on my mind and I don't make up excuses for why I do them and I look for ways to improve but always don't succeed.

As far as what can be done about it? That is a daunting question and task. The church has changed and my Mother who has been in it for 70 years has seen the changes and some she does not agree with but she is a very faithful Member and sees the good although not your hook line and sinker type. I have seen it change in the last 30 years.

I don't claim change is always wrong. I believe in being progressive but it's clear the leaders of the LDS church will shun certain behaviors in order to keep “order”. They want people to stay in the church even though speaking out on many issues in the world and within the church should surely be discussed but they are worried about hurting feelings and various other reasons. If Jesus were here on this earth now he would not be addressing such things? Those that believe in Christ would all admit that he would. So why doesn’t the LDS church feel the same way?

Hi gdog,

I can't speak for LDS on the matter. IMO, there is a pariah that effects us all. It's something we generally fail to see, because it gets blended in with the compassion of Christ for others.

It seems to me that we have identified with Christ, in that he consistently reached out to the sinner. And so what we do is reach out to the sinners. This is a good thing except we fail to make a distinction that Christ did.

Christ's frustrations and his confounding gestures to the charlatans of faith in his day, being the Pharisees and Sadducees, are noted. We forget this.

More importantly, in that era the Temple in Jerusalem stood as a representation to all men to the worship of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and the practices, faith and rituals of God's people. The Temples usage had become perverted and with no more than a handful of rope, our Savior cleansed the Temple of the wicked. This shouldn't be passed over IMO.

Somehow we have misunderstood things along the way. We seem to think it's okay to be compassionate to those that intractably stand against the teachings of Christ. We think we should show compassion to towards their views, because they are sinful views and Christ reached out to sinners. Our mistaken compassion has cost us, IMO.

I think what we don't see is that Christ reached out to those who were willing to take his hand with the most extreme measures possible, but for those that knowingly stood against him he gave no room. By his own words, he said..

Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

By our hyperbolic stance towards the compassion of Christ, we as Christians, have wrongly given room to those that knowingly stand against Christ. It has effected our culture most certainly.

The only way to change it, is to realize that there are actually two sides to the coin and treat those on either side accordingly.

Regards,

Mudcat

[gdog]

Becasue we as a people have determined that it does.

Its quite easy for some one to be a secret coffee drinker and still lie and get a temple recommend. But what does one do when ones concience convicts them?

Who dies drinking coffee? Who dies of terrible eating habits?.....Many. I would rather have the church concentrate on saving lives. How bout treating your body like a temple idea? What do you have on this earth when your good health is taken from you?

Please give me your honest opinion. Take a person that is in tip top shape and attends church regularly, performs home teaching, etc but drinks coffee. Now take an individual who is just as active as the first person and lives a parallel life but they treat there bodies like a trash dump and have experienced heart problems due to being very much overweight and other health issues that occur due to there abusive condition and we both see it in and out of the church. Why in hecks name does the person who treats their "temple" like a dump be allowed to attend the temple and the person who drinks cups of Joe cannot? That is part of God's plan? Using coffee as a test? If so, that a ludicrous plan and I don't believe he would do that. The unhealthy individual is breaking the WOW and they can't hide it either and they would if they could. And I dare say that the heathy individual is in more of a position to receive the spirit rather than the one who cant walk 30 feet without fainting. The message is, you can do anything you want to your body as long as coffee, tea and tobacco are not included in it.

I know it is hard to just come out and tell some members to start treating their bodies with respect and I don't have an easy answer but there must be more effort or else we are doing ourselves a massive disservice.

[selek1]

honestly would affect your spiritual life more...a cup of coffee a few times a week or watching Desperate Housewives? According to God I bet we can assume one is not worse than the other but coffee has such a taboo attached to it and keeps you out of the temple but watching and soaking in smut on TV or the movie screen is in my mind much more accepted even thought the results are maybe more damaging. Some LDS people even say....What I watch is my business and I can handle it, but they don’t tend to say that about coffee as much.

The problem here gdog is that YOU, not we, have drawn the false dichotomy between coffee and smut on TV. It's not an either/or situation.

Both are morally corrosive.

I don’t think our moral compasses are where they should be and we will be judged for that.

This is quite true. I don't doubt that we all have areas in which we must assess ourselves and seek to become more Christ-like.

That having been said, such assessments lie between us and the Lord and those whom he has annointed to that stewardship.

It is certainly NOT the province on an anonymous someone on an Internet board with an obvious axe to grind.

The overriding problem, however, is that your entire premise is fatally flawed. That the Saints (and others) are enmeshed in the cultural moors (pun intended) and filth of their time doesn't mean that God is changing.

To claim that it does is a non-sequitor.

In point of fact, Heavenly Father and his servants have counseled us repeatedly not to waste time on such frivilous and debased activities, but to devote ourselves to those things which are good and wholesome.

And they have been roundly mocked by the pomp of Babylon for doing so.

The counsel and advice we have been given has not changed.

God has not changed.

And you've offered nothing in the way of supporting your pretense that he has.

Indeed, your entire rant against LDS who watch Desperate Housewives is based on an untried, untested, and unproven assumption.

Do you have any evidence to back up your accusation that "multi thousands of LDS members watch it either regularly or periodically"?

Contrary to your assertion, we don't "know that". Despite the fact that you trotted out the accusation for polemical purposes, we really don't know any such thing.

We can say times have changed and society has changed but since when did God tell us to go with the flow when it comes to sin??

And who precisely is espousing that position here? Thus far, you seem to be alone in that category.

So with God being a cultural relativist he will eventually let us know that coffee is in fact ok to drink?

And who precisely has asserted that God is a cultural relativist? Thus far, you stand alone in that predicament. Cinepro is not exactly an unbiased or authoritative source on LDS doctrine- nor with his sarcasm and dry sense of humor can he always be taken at face value.

And it time gays will be allowed in the churchand garments will get shorter and shorter and evetually we won't be asked to where them.

Do you have you any evidence to back up your alarmist slippery-slope argument?

Any at all?

In point of fact, homosexuals are already welcome in our church. We simply don't condone their abberant temptations and expect them to keep the same commandments as any other member.

Let's bottom-line it. Would you watch Desperate Housewives with the Prophet? If the answer is no then you shouldn’t watch it.

I agree- one should not watch such things.

I also feel, as an American citizen, that ordering Church monitors or Danite shock-troops into the homes of Latter-day Saints to ensure they don't do anything with which I disagree is a bit excessive.

And I certainly don't want you put in charge of such matters.

To do so would violate one of the most sacred tenets of the Plan of Salvation: agency.

Edited October 22, 2011 by selek1

[Calm]

In my experience there have been many, many classes taught on proper nutrition and healthy eating, practically every enrichment night I've gone to has some variation on the theme as well as many Young Women classes and programs. And over the years there have been a few physical fitness programs the Church has pursued as a whole (if I was in my old ward I could go get the names by digging out some of the pamphlets we had on the ward library left over from these programs), more as individual units. There are numerous articles on nutrition and health in church magazines and articles.

These days there is plenty of info and direction to be found out in the community so it seems to me to be redundant for the Church to take on the role of personal trainer, but they have already provided plenty of support and direction in this area.

Edited October 22, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Check out this site for an interesting view of the trend of obesity in the US (white-light blue is low, red-maroon is high): http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/trends.html

Utah has historically been in the less obese category except in the earlier years of the chart. At this time unless I missed a state, only Colorado is lower at 21% while Utah is at 22.5%. Health obsessed (at least it appeared that way to me while i was growing up) California is higher at 24%.

Utah and Colorado have the lowest rates for obesity in children as well: http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/childhood/data.html

Edited October 22, 2011 by calmoriah

[gdog]

Check out this site for an interesting view of the trend of obesity in the US (white-light blue is low, red-maroon is high): http://www.cdc.gov/o...ata/trends.html

Utah has historically been in the less obese category except in the earlier years of the chart. At this time unless I missed a state, only Colorado is lower at 21% while Utah is at 22.5%. Health obsessed (at least it appeared that way to me while i was growing up) California is higher at 24%.

Utah and Colorado have the lowest rates for obesity in children as well: http://www.cdc.gov/o...dhood/data.html

It is a FACT and you can look this up via the Church that Utah Mormons are on average 10 pounds more over weight than Utah non-Mormons. What might be your explanation?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It is a FACT and you can look this up via the Church that Utah Mormons are on average 10 pounds more over weight than Utah non-Mormons. What might be your explanation?

CFR I am sure you can back this up. As I recall that Utah has one of the more "normal" weight populous on the country.

When ever I see the word "fact" in caps I know people are full of it.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[gdog]

The problem here gdog is that YOU, not we, have drawn the false dichotomy between coffee and smut on TV. It's not an either/or situation.

Both are morally corrosive.

This is quite true. I don't doubt that we all have areas in which we must assess ourselves and seek to become more Christ-like.

That having been said, such assessments lie between us and the Lord and those whom he has annointed to that stewardship.

It is certainly NOT the province on an anonymous someone on an Internet board with an obvious axe to grind.

The overriding problem, however, is that your entire premise is fatally flawed. That the Saints (and others) are enmeshed in the cultural moors (pun intended) and filth of their time doesn't mean that God is changing.

To claim that it does is a non-sequitor.

In point of fact, Heavenly Father and his servants have counseled us repeatedly not to waste time on such frivilous and debased activities, but to devote ourselves to those things which are good and wholesome.

And they have been roundly mocked by the pomp of Babylon for doing so.

The counsel and advice we have been given has not changed.

God has not changed.

And you've offered nothing in the way of supporting your pretense that he has.

Indeed, your entire rant against LDS who watch Desperate Housewives is based on an untried, untested, and unproven assumption.

Do you have any evidence to back up your accusation that "multi thousands of LDS members watch it either regularly or periodically"?

Contrary to your assertion, we don't "know that". Despite the fact that you trotted out the accusation for polemical purposes, we really don't know any such thing.

And who precisely is espousing that position here? Thus far, you seem to be alone in that category.

And who precisely has asserted that God is a cultural relativist? Thus far, you stand alone in that predicament. Cinepro is not exactly an unbiased or authoritative source on LDS doctrine- nor with his sarcasm and dry sense of humor can he always be taken at face value.

Do you have you any evidence to back up your alarmist slippery-slope argument?

Any at all?

In point of fact, homosexuals are already welcome in our church. We simply don't condone their abberant temptations and expect them to keep the same commandments as any other member.

I agree- one should not watch such things.

I also feel, as an American citizen, that ordering Church monitors or Danite shock-troops into the homes of Latter-day Saints to ensure they don't do anything with which I disagree is a bit excessive.

And I certainly don't want you put in charge of such matters.

To do so would violate one of the most sacred tenets of the Plan of Salvation: agency.

1. You are exactly right comparing coffee and DHW's. And with that said, why is coffee so pronounced in church rather than Smut? There is a specific commandment and rule and repercussions such as not attending the Temple if coffee is consumed and/or known to be consumed. We have a group of women in my ward that watch DHW's religiously (not on Sunday).... What does the church do? Nothing. Can you imagine if they got together to drink coffee?
   
2. I never said God changed. What have you been reading? I have said very much to the contrary. People change and excuses come flooding in to adjust to our bad habits and it's not just Mormons. We all pick and choose what we feel is right and wrong. It's human nature.
   
3. Seriously, Are you telling me that thousands of LDS members do not watch DHW's? You’re kidding me right? I will claim I know for a fact thousands watch the Bachelor and that horrific show the Bachelor Pad. There is practically a fan club in my own Ward from that show of approx. 15 women. Take 6 million LDS members in America. If you take a half of a half % that is 15,000 people. Is that far fetched? My wife and sister talk about the Bachelor ALL THE TIME. You need to check reality my friend. Are you new to the church? Let me ask you this... Can you claim that an LDS priesthood blessing can truly and literally heal an individual from sickness or save them from sure death? Can you prove that? We don't "know that" and you claiming so means nothing.
   
4. You need to read all the posts before commenting. The "cultural relativist" statement was from another member of the church in this thread. You act like I am the only member in the church who has feelings like this. I ask again, are you new to the church?
   
5. Have garments not changed since the beginnings of the church? They used to be to the wrist and ankle. Are you new to the church?
   
6. I very much agree with your Agency thought and that is no excuse to watch DHW's or drink coffee.
   

[gdog]

CFR I am sure you can back this up. As I recall that Utah has one of the more "normal" weight populous on the country. When ever I see the word "fact" in caps I know people are full of it.

It's nice to know you call freely call people liars. You are a true Christian and you should be proud of yourself.

Here is as an article about 5 years ago.The report I saw about the 10 pounds was on channel 2 news in Utah and that was about 6-8 months ago. I will try to find more info on that but let's say I was lying about 10 pounds. You do have to admit.... Mormons are fatter than non-Mormons.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11355738/ns/health-fitness/t/byu-study-finds-mormons-weigh-more/#.TqhwCM3R2ks.

It's from BYU so I assume you will not call the 5 pounds a FACT.

[Sky]

Who dies drinking coffee? Who dies of terrible eating habits?.....Many. I would rather have the church concentrate on saving lives. How bout treating your body like a temple idea? What do you have on this earth when your good health is taken from you?

Please give me your honest opinion. Take a person that is in tip top shape and attends church regularly, performs home teaching, etc but drinks coffee. Now take an individual who is just as active as the first person and lives a parallel life but they treat there bodies like a trash dump and have experienced heart problems due to being very much overweight and other health issues that occur due to there abusive condition and we both see it in and out of the church. Why in hecks name does the person who treats their "temple" like a dump be allowed to attend the temple and the person who drinks cups of Joe cannot?

So should we start banning overweight people from attending the temple now? That seems to be what you are saying. At what point should overweight people stop coming to the temple – at 10 pounds overweight? 50 pounds? 100 pounds? Morbidly obese? Should we start monitoring people’s intake of candy, ice cream, cake, processed foods, red meat, and soda pop? Should we keep track of how often people get physical exercise? Do you realize how ridicules you are sounding yet?

The Church is not Weight Watchers. It can’t police everything. The Word of Wisdom teaches correct principles, but how we put it into practice in our lives is largely up to us (beyond just going without coffee, tea, alcohol, or tobacco). God gave us our brains and the gift of the Holy Ghost for a reason. If you know something is unhealthy to put into your body, then don’t eat it. But don’t judge the rest of the membership of the Church because some of them happen to be overweight or don’t always eat the right foods.