Does God Really Change?

[LeSellers]

Have you had somebody in your immediate family die of cancer? Hits a lot closer to home.

Yes, my father died of prostate cancer 15 years ago.It was lingering, painful, and horrible to watch.

He and my mother, who died of heart Rheumatic disease (after twenty years of suffering) while I served my mission to France and Switzerland, are waiting for me to come home, too.

Nearsighted people, spiritually near-sighted people, place no value on the unseen. But it is the unseen that has the most intrinsic value.

Lehi

Edited October 27, 2011 by LeSellers

[altersteve]

Let's say you came across a group of people somewhere in the world and they were experiencing starvation and having issues with pornography. Would your efforts first be to cure the porn or feed them?

I would feed them first, obviously. But that doesn't mean feeding them more important in the long run. And besides, I can't "cure the porn." Delivering a person from the evils of pornography is something that only Jesus Christ can do.

I actually expected you to ask a question like that.

[gdog]

Yes, my father died of prostate cancer 15 years ago.It was lingering, painful, and horrible to watch.

He and my mother, who died of heart Rheumatic disease (after twenty years of suffering) while I served my mission to France and Switzerland, are waiting for me to come home, too.

Nearsighted people, spiritually near-sighted people, place no value on the unseen. But it is the unseen that has the most intrinsic value.

Lehi

I have all the faith in the world when it comes to loved ones moving to the other side and the big picture but it is not an excuse for me not to do what is right today and truly giving to those who are less needy (I really need to do a better job at it) for that is what helps me most to understand the big picture. Those that are selfless are those who see much further down the road and I don't feel modern super cool surroundings around the Temple grounds falls under the first priority category on this earth. Any sane person knows this.

[Calm]

It always amazes me how many people need coffee to wake up in the morning. It is an addiction. But that is not a problem for people who obey the Word of Wisdom. What our bodies really need in the morning is a nutritious breakfast. I can attest that it really works.

And just think of all that money that is spent and land that is used to produce it. What could be accomplished if it was devoted to something else.

Just one coffee company made over 700 million in 2009: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Mountain_Coffee_Roasters

What if everyone took the money they spent on coffee and sent it to a charity?

And what about tobacco? Not only is that money and land down the drain health wise, but it actually contributes to serious health problems? Surely that should be completely outlawed for people's own good.

Everybody has their own ideas on how to best spend someone else's money. I would be more impressed by those who demand the Church sent its resources out to those in need if I saw the person making the demand having first set the example by selling all their luxuries, giving up their vices and entertainments, getting by with a cheap car, a few clothes, not updating their gadgets every year or so, etc. and giving their excess to the poor as part of their personal commitment to the Lord. Haven't seen too much of that though.

The money that is being spent on the City Creek project has not been lost. Plus there are the jobs that are created so that more people are self reliant and not dependent on handouts. Revenues from the project can be used on humanitarian projects in the future if the Church so chooses and if they did, in the long run more could be given due to the continual income. It may take some time for all the investment to be recovered, but eventually it will be.

[Calm]

Just think what could be accomplished if those viewers took the money they spent on porn and use it instead for charitable purposes.

[LeSellers]

I have all the faith in the world when it comes to loved ones moving to the other side and the big picture but it is not an excuse for me not to do what is right today and truly giving to those who are less needy (I really need to do a better job at it) for that is what helps me most to understand the big picture. Those that are selfless are those who see much further down the road and I don't feel modern super cool surroundings around the Temple grounds falls under the first priority category on this earth. Any sane person knows this.

I am sane, and I do not know this.

Your values are different from mine. I can see that. But I have something that perhaps you do not: I have lived a fairly long time on this earth, and I know that suffering is a part of life. I know that, in the long run, we all die. LTC Henry Blake, MD, reminds us that, "In war, the first rule is that young men die. The second rule is that doctors cannot change rule one." The same applies to life in general. That does not mean that we should do nothing to alleviate pain and suffering, to extend life where we can, but it also does not mean that we should lose focus on the bigger picture. "Whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." and "what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his soul?" But while curing the wounds of the injured, we must remember to decorate the graves of the dead.

Some things are worth dying for and about. Some things are worth suffering for.

Edited October 28, 2011 by LeSellers

[gdog]

I would feed them first, obviously. But that doesn't mean feeding them more important in the long run. And besides, I can't "cure the porn." Delivering a person from the evils of pornography is something that only Jesus Christ can do.

I actually expected you to ask a question like that.

And your answer nailed my point square on the head. If it is so blatantly “Obvious” then why does the church try so hard and spend so much money on helping those with porn issues? You do have to admit, you hear it all the time whether it’s in our Wards or the Conference pulpit. It’s obvious we need to feed people with the billions the church has. It’s a no brainer and I have to admit there isn't an easy simple answer to any of this just as there is no simple cure for porn addiction but we all know what should come first.

We can't help with alcoholism either right? AA, intervention by friends and family members doesn’t help? Only Jesus can do it? Oh and an atheist can’t cure himself from Porn because he doesn’t believe in Jesus right?

Edited October 27, 2011 by gdog

[gdog]

Just think what could be accomplished if those viewers took the money they spent on porn and use it instead for charitable purposes.

Fully agree

[gdog]

I am sane, and I do not know this. Your values are different from mine. I can see that. But I have something that perhaps you do not: I have lived a fairly long time on this earth, and Iknow that suffering is a part of life. I know that, in the long run, we all die. LTC Henry Blake, MD, reminds us that, "In war, the first rule is that young men die. The second rule is that doctors cannot change rule 1." The same applies to life in general. That does not mean that we should do nothing to alleviate pain and suffering, to extend life where we can, but it also does not mean that we should lose focus on the bigger picture. "whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." and "what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his soul?" But while curing the wounds of the injured, we must remember to decorate the graves of the dead. Somethings are worth dying for and about. Some things are worth suffering for.

I don't disagree with all your thoghts. You say are values are different but...We both have values.

Edited October 27, 2011 by gdog

[mfbukowski]

Just think what could be accomplished if those viewers took the money they spent on porn and use it instead for charitable purposes.

You brought up coffee as well- add to that the miles and miles of vineyards in California's Napa Valley, and all over the world, all the grain fields used for beer, the hops fields, the barley fields, the potatoes for vodka, the corn used for liquor and corn syrup, and on it goes.

What a waste!

[altersteve]

And your answer nailed my point square on the head. If it is so blatantly “Obvious” then why does the church try so hard and spend so much money on helping those with porn issues? You do have to admit, you hear it all the time whether it’s in our Wards or the Conference pulpit. It’s obvious we need to feed people with the billions the church has. It’s a no brainer and I have to admit there isn't an easy simple answer to any of this just as there is no simple cure for porn addiction but we all know what should come first.

We can't help with alcoholism either right? AA, intervention by friends and family members doesn’t help? Only Jesus can do it? Oh and an atheist can’t cure himself from Porn because he doesn’t believe in Jesus right?

Are you saying the Church does not spend money and time feeding the poor? Exactly what do you think the Church's enormous welfare program is for? And yes, an atheist can obviously stop using pornography. By "delivered," though, I meant fully cleansed and forgiven; "cure the porn" as you so eloquently put it. These things can only come through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

And of course we can help with alcoholism. The Church is active in this as well.

Edited October 27, 2011 by altersteve

[Sky]

I have all the faith in the world when it comes to loved ones moving to the other side and the big picture but it is not an excuse for me not to do what is right today and truly giving to those who are less needy (I really need to do a better job at it) for that is what helps me most to understand the big picture. Those that are selfless are those who see much further down the road and I don't feel modern super cool surroundings around the Temple grounds falls under the first priority category on this earth. Any sane person knows this.

All you’ve been doing in this thread is tearing down faith and criticizing the Church for this, that, and the other. Is that all you have to offer? Are there sometimes inconsistencies with the way things are done? Yes. Are there ways to reconcile these things and still have faith? Yes.

It went from watching inappropriate TV shows, to the Word of Wisdom and eating habits, to defending coffee drinking, to not doing enough to feed the poor, to improving the grounds around Temple Square, and even defending pornography (because it’s not as bad as poor eating habits, right)? I’m sure there’s more that I left out. Obviously you have issues with the Church. I don’t know how to help you. Maybe you’d be happier in the Salvation Army?

[gdog]

All you’ve been doing in this thread is tearing down faith and criticizing the Church for this, that, and the other. Is that all you have to offer? Are there sometimes inconsistencies with the way things are done? Yes. Are there ways to reconcile these things and still have faith? Yes.

It went from watching inappropriate TV shows, to the Word of Wisdom and eating habits, to defending coffee drinking, to not doing enough to feed the poor, to improving the grounds around Temple Square, and even defending pornography (because it’s not as bad as poor eating habits, right)? I’m sure there’s more that I left out. Obviously you have issues with the Church. I don’t know how to help you. Maybe you’d be happier in the Salvation Army?

Maybe you should not waist your time reading my posts?

[altersteve]

Maybe you should not waist your time reading my posts?

Maybe you should not waste your time criticizing everything.

[Sky]

Maybe you should not waist your time reading my posts?

I think you might be right. I just didn't want to let your posts go unchallenged. They deserved a response with a different perspective.

[gdog]

Maybe you should not waste your time criticizing everything.

First off...you truly wanted to help me?

Second... I wasn’t asking for your help. Funny thing here is, I don’t drink coffee, I don’t partake in porn, I am an active member and I have a beautiful wife and 4 great children and have always had firm faith in My Heavenly Father although it might be different than yours in ways.

Do I threaten you? I could go on with this thread for weeks and apparently you can to. I enjoy the discussion.

[gdog]

I think you might be right. I just didn't want to let your posts go unchallenged. They deserved a response with a different perspective.

That is what I am looking for and I respect your thoughts.

[TAO]

Starvation in itself is much worse in this world than the issue of Pornography.

Consider the resurrection.

It doesn't look quite as bad once you consider that. Still bad, but not as incomparable as you might think.

Every day, almost 16,000 children die from hunger-related causes. That's one child every five seconds. Instead of concentrating on Porn and building temples all over the world let’s fight world hunger and poverty. Let’s not spend approximately 1.5 billion on downtown Slat Lake projects and let’s put it towards trying to cure terrible diseases and medical research. I know Heavenly Father would spend money on a mall in downtown Salt Lake rather than disperse that money towards humanitarian efforts and when you really break that down it’s absurd to even think the church would put that much money toward beautifying a town.

Do you understand that the mall is an investment? The mall, has a chance of paying back more money than was spent on it in returns. In addition, it will create a good image, which, is an additional investment which isn't calculated into the equation.

Investments can help us do more later. I don't see why you are so intense on this issue.

If you are worried about the church not helping the poor enough, take a look into what they donate to various organizations that help with that sort of stuff - it is quite a bit, actually.

Here is really the bottom line. The church cannot address certain subjects because it will offend too many people.

I see the church addressing gay mairrage. It offended tons of people, but they still address it.

I also remember hearing about the church addressing the 'equal rights bill' movement. It also offended tons of people, but they still addressed it.

You will not offend a whole lot of people about Porn because most people try to hide this and it is possible to do that and anything sexual has ALWAYS been taboo in religion. It’s nothing new.

It's been taboo in the counter-culture, yes. But in culture, believe it or not, porn is a rather commonplace thing. I have spoken against porn in certain conversations at my college, and I could tell it made a few people a bit uncomfortable. And the church speaks against it with it's PR far more than I have mentioned my opinion to others. So I don't think your conclusion about the church is quite correct; the church seems very willing to talk controversial issues with people - they just tend to take a moderate route in touchy issues, which is a rather practical thing to do, wouldn't you say?

You can’t hide fat.

I introduce you to the lap-band surgery, popular here in California. There are people who still think they can hide the fat, my friend, which has made that surgery a somewhat (perhaps even very) popular way of losing weight.

In addition, fat people don't always have over-eating problems =P. And sometimes it's skinny people who have them. I would probably classify as one of those.

If the church held campaigns on these types of problems there would be a literal uproar. Members would be saying... leave me alone, I can choose what I want to eat.

http://lds.org/churc...ery=eat+healthy

http://lds.org/manua...ery=eat+healthy

http://lds.org/ensig...ery=eat+healthy

http://lds.org/manua...ery=eat+healthy

http://lds.org/ensig...ery=eat+healthy

I even see a site about when getting your child immunized among other things: http://lds.org/searc...ery=eat+healthy

The church has said something on the issue, and I don't see people complaining. Rather, I actually see them taking it rather well. They know the church has words of wisdom when it speaks

*Broken into two seperate posts because it is too long* =P

Edited October 28, 2011 by TAO

[TAO]

*Broken into two seperate posts because it is too long* =P

The church can go out on a full attack with Porn because it is very easy to do and the church needs to set up these crusades much like a politician does in there own campaigning.

Just because something is easy doesn't mean it doesn't need to be done. I'd rather nip it now while I can.

In addition, I don't think it's quite as easy as you think it is. The church has specifically set up a program for addiction recovery (ARP), and the only reason they would do that is if there was a need for it. I think there's more people who need it then you think, my friend... and I'm happy the church is doing something about it. The bishops are there to help the people who need them.

Pick a topic and sticking with it shows strength and leadership. The church is not the only organization doing this with Porn.

That's fine, it doesn't particularly matter if they aren't the only organization. One of the things the church is great at is working to cooperate with people, and I have heard that this differs from some other religious organizations. I think it's a good thing =).

What if coffee just came out as a forbidden drink and was not included in the original WOW.

What do you think the talk over caffeine is? Modern revelation may not be written in the D&C, but it is still quite important, that it is =).

How would that go over in the church? It would be impossible to come out with such a revelation today but that would be a great test of faith.

Or it'd just come and go fine, like things did with the Priesthood. Nah, I don't think the reaction would be quite as intense as you think it would be. It'd be more of a 'huh?' probably. Of course, I do not think a revelation saying that would occur anyways.

But the coffee doctrine has always been so it’s easy to uphold. It was much easier 200 years ago to come out with policy and doctrine and members and times were of course different back then.

The priesthood issue shows this isn't the case. It wasn't a change in doctrine, it was a change in policy. And yet it went through church just fine.

I am not saying the church should not warn of anything detrimental to our lives. We all know porn has bad affects but again, it’s easy to pound your fists with porn and that is exactly why it is done. The more ground you try to hold the more affect you have on membership.

Again, it isn't easy, and even if it was, it is important enough to do it anyways.

The church already tries to hold alot of ground with the membership. They do a good job with it too, and we trust them.

All I hear is that the spirit will let us know what is appropriate and what is not.

Because you cannot sense what another senses, in order to recieve a witness of the truth, you must do it yourself.

Most of us instinctively desire a witness of the truth.

So we trust in the spirit, as he is our link.

Many members claim the spirit prompts them in many ways but I have never heard in church the spirit prompting a person to start treating there bodies the way they should. It’s never a prompting about physical well being.

My friend, you can't expect God to act precisely the same way to every individual; we all have different needs. We all do have one need though, and that is to be saved from our sins, and in that sense, we can be taught the same things. But there are also things which apply to one individual more than then apply to another. Either is fine imho.

Why is the spirit not working like it should when it comes to abusing your body with food and laziness?

It does work. Sometimes people just have a hard time listening =P. He can be hard to hear at times.

It's not the spirits lack of communication it's the individuals lack of caring. We know we have a body given to us from Heavenly Father but we make excuses. That’s all it comes down to.

Mmmm... to a degree. I won't lay the blame on them quite that hard. Though again, sometimes we don't listen quite as carefully as we should... me included.

Best Wishes,

TAO

Edited October 28, 2011 by TAO

[altersteve]

Why is the spirit not working like it should when it comes to abusing your body with food and laziness?

He absolutely is. I credit my decision to start eating healthy and working out everyday to the Spirit. Without that spiritual prompting I felt, I wouldn't have six pack abs right now.

[Calm]

I know of several people who attribute their turnabout attitude towards their health to the Spirit.

The Spirit revealed to me my daughter had diabetes. I sat down one day to take a short breather the day before we left on our yearly visit to relatives in the States and the thought appeared full fleshed in my mind without any lead up or prior analysis "she has diabetes". There was no reason for it to occur, there in no history of diabetes (type 1) in the family and I was not aware that she was constantly eating and drinking recently and her clothes hid her weight loss. I called up my husband and insisted he stop by the pharmacy to pick up sugar testing strips, she was off the charts, we hit the hospital in the next half hour, she was admitted immediately. When I told the receptionist we had tested her prior to coming down, she was amazed, said it was the first time she had heard it happening. In most cases with children there is a crisis before they figured out something is wrong. We calculated that it is likely she would have crashed when we were in the middle of Idaho, on the road and possibly far from a hospital. Probably wouldn't have been life threatened, but what could have been a horrible experience for all concerned as well as a costly one ended up being very positive even for my daughter with her severe social anxiety. She was admitted the night before her birthday and instead of being miserable in a strange place with no family or friends around her, she said that except for the whole feeling sick stuff it was her best birthday ever. Even if we had made it to Utah Valley, the quality of care she received was much better due to having a fantastic children's hospital where we lived and the only thing that cost us was eating at the hospital cafeteria.

The Spirit has definitely guided me in many different ways to find answers to my own health issues after working with doctors for years being misdiagnosed and mistreated.

I have a sister in law who believes the spirit guided her in helping her son heal from cancer through nutrition, he had a remarkable recovery and is cancer free after having almost died after being sent home by a doctor who somehow missed the huge mass invading his abdomen. She's been able to turn her own health issues around even to the point of the colouring coming back into her grey hair. She sees the spirit taking her step by step, sometimes kicking and screaming. I've got two other friends who see the spirit working in their lives the same way. They've manage to lose weight and accomplish great healing in their lives. My mother was told she would likely have to have some major treatment on her heart (her dad had died of heart disease when he was quite young and tests showed she was heading that way even though she was a very healthy eater and exerciser). 6 months later after engaging in an alternative treatment she believes the Spirit led her too, the doctor retested her, told her she had the heart of a 20 year old (she was 65ish), her tests were all perfect so he told her not to come back for a couple of years and she's had no problem in that area since.

I think that your claim that the spirit isn't working in people's lives in this area is more likely based on a lack of knowledge than what is actuallynhappening.

Edited October 28, 2011 by calmoriah