Does God Really Change?

[mfbukowski]

The more God changes, the more he remains the same. Has the Mississippi river changed in the last 100 years?

Ever noticed how when someone gets a new calling, it is often introduced by the phrase "There is nothing as constant as change"?

[altersteve]

gdog, as for R-rated movies goes, I'm not aware that any Church leader has told us to completely avoid every single R-rated movie. They have, rather, counseled us to be careful about our movie selections. For example, I feel that every person, especially Latter-day Saints and other Christians, need to see the Mel Gibson film The Passion of the Christ, which is rated R for the extremely graphic crucifixion scenes that it portrays. It's definitely NOT for children, but it's a beautiful film that makes one realize exactly what Christ went through. Roman crucifixions were not pretty, and this film accurately portrays that. It's graphic, brutal, sometimes frightening, and often hard to watch, but it makes you realize, "He did this for me." And I feel like every person needs to see it at one point or another in their lives.

The point is that we are to judge for ourselves what is good for us in instances like this. If we feel the Spirit and the approval of the Lord, then we may watch it. With coffee and other things that will keep us from the temple, that's a no-no. But movies and music are different. We are to decide for ourselves with the accompanying influence of the Holy Ghost. It's really that simple.

[gdog]

So should we start banning overweight people from attending the temple now? That seems to be what you are saying. At what point should overweight people stop coming to the temple – at 10 pounds overweight? 50 pounds? 100 pounds? Morbidly obese? Should we start monitoring people’s intake of candy, ice cream, cake, processed foods, red meat, and soda pop? Should we keep track of how often people get physical exercise? Do you realize how ridicules you are sounding yet?

The Church is not Weight Watchers. It can’t police everything. The Word of Wisdom teaches correct principles, but how we put it into practice in our lives is largely up to us (beyond just going without coffee, tea, alcohol, or tobacco). God gave us our brains and the gift of the Holy Ghost for a reason. If you know something is unhealthy to put into your body, then don’t eat it. But don’t judge the rest of the membership of the Church because some of them happen to be overweight or don’t always eat the right foods.

But the church does in fact judge people who drink tea and coffee don't they? It's a commandment. For heck sakes... If you continue to do so you can't enter into the Celestial Kingdom let alone not attend the Temple. BUT you can get into the CK being obese? I would guess that is tougher than we think.

At what point should a coffee drinker not be allowed to go to the temple? Half a cup? 1 cup a day? Oh wait, You can drink 6 Pepsis a day (246 grams of sugar) and get into the temple. That is much healthier than coffee right.What does more damage to the body and spirit? Coffee or Pepsi? Both? Come on people, are you blind? Maybe you’re condoning eating poorly?

Look, I am not saying people overweight are going to hell. What I am saying is the Church should concentrate more on discussing eating healthy and saving lives along with the spirituality side of things. I get the importance of both.

How bout tithing and the temple? Is it 10%? Is it 6.5% to get in?

[gdog]

Overeating and heart disease due to poor eating habits and lack of exercise is an NATIONAL EPIDEMIC in the USA. Coffee drinking is not. And let’s face it, how much spiritual potential can you have when addicted to food, sugar and being overweight compared to one who is physically fit? No different than being addicted to coffee except that coffee actually has some health benefits. My mission President was asked why he jogged 8 miles every morning. He replied, “So I can serve the Lord better”

Here is a stat for you. 1 out of every 4 kids in America under the age of 5 today will develop diabetes’s by the time they are 25 . Is that not eye opening enough for you? We are screwing over our children and creating massive health problems in this country but hey, we have freedom of choice. Oh, but the church will only worry so much about that Epidemic.

The church talks about Pornography constantly. Last time I checked, Porn wasn’t killing people but I don’t condone it either. How much should the church condone porn viewing? Once a week? Twice every year? 5 times daily? Where do you draw the line there?

Can you give me a good reason/reasons why the church warns SO BOLDLY and so frequently about Pornography? We here it in General Conference all the time. I don’t hear much about bad eating in Conference even though it’s worse than Porn. Is a member gonna stand up and say….Hey, don’t judge me just because I watch porn. It’s easy to chastise those who watch porn and why does the church care so much about it?

[gdog]

gdog, as for R-rated movies goes, I'm not aware that any Church leader has told us to completely avoid every single R-rated movie. They have, rather, counseled us to be careful about our movie selections. For example, I feel that every person, especially Latter-day Saints and other Christians, need to see the Mel Gibson film The Passion of the Christ, which is rated R for the extremely graphic crucifixion scenes that it portrays. It's definitely NOT for children, but it's a beautiful film that makes one realize exactly what Christ went through. Roman crucifixions were not pretty, and this film accurately portrays that. It's graphic, brutal, sometimes frightening, and often hard to watch, but it makes you realize, "He did this for me." And I feel like every person needs to see it at one point or another in their lives.

The point is that we are to judge for ourselves what is good for us in instances like this. If we feel the Spirit and the approval of the Lord, then we may watch it. With coffee and other things that will keep us from the temple, that's a no-no. But movies and music are different. We are to decide for ourselves with the accompanying influence of the Holy Ghost. It's really that simple.

I agree on your rated R explanation and I have never said that all rated R is bad in my opinion. We don't drink coffee because we are told not to. We watch inappropriate films and shows because we are not told not to. We justify. It’s that simple. We can’t justify coffee as easily but even thought we know there is bad stuff out there to be viewed and can affect our spirits even worse than a cup of coffee we come up with tons of reasons why it is "ok". Can’t do that with coffee in the church but I can look at the TV show Californication weekly on Showtime and still go to the temple? That make ZERO sense and we all know it but are afraid to admit because it just makes to much dang sense. Common sense is lost on these issues. It’s like saying…. The church can judge me concerning coffee but not me consuming sexually riddled shows. That is personnel and my choice and nobody will judge me but God. If we are to decide and go by the spirit on such things then why would the spirit tell one person it's ok to be eat whatever you want and the other not to? I know for a fact, Holy Ghost or not that eating too much sugar and fats can potentially end your life. Do we really need the spirit for that? All that is required is brains.

[Sky]

D&C 58: 26 -

For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

[Calm]

It's nice to know you call freely call people liars. You are a true Christian and you should be proud of yourself.

Here is as an article about 5 years ago.The report I saw about the 10 pounds was on channel 2 news in Utah and that was about 6-8 months ago. I will try to find more info on that but let's say I was lying about 10 pounds. You do have to admit.... Mormons are fatter than non-Mormons.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11355738/ns/health-fitness/t/byu-study-finds-mormons-weigh-more/#.TqhwCM3R2ks.

It's from BYU so I assume you will not call the 5 pounds a FACT.

I am not the least bit surprised, LDS women on average have more children than nonLDS, LDS men tend to devote a lot of leisure time to the church instead the gym, etc. What this study does not address though is utah overall is the 2nd lowest obesity rate in the US, given the differences in the study, it doesn't look like that is all credited to the nonLDS Utahans.

[TAO]

gdog, just so you know, people who exercise more tend to be heavier as well - muscle has mass.

I would check the exercise ratings in Utah then, because your 'heavier' study could just mean they exercise more =).

Or it might mean the opposite too.

You'll have to check.

Edited October 27, 2011 by TAO

[TAO]

Overeating and heart disease due to poor eating habits and lack of exercise is an NATIONAL EPIDEMIC in the USA. Coffee drinking is not. And let’s face it, how much spiritual potential can you have when addicted to food, sugar and being overweight compared to one who is physically fit? No different than being addicted to coffee except that coffee actually has some health benefits. My mission President was asked why he jogged 8 miles every morning. He replied, “So I can serve the Lord better”

Here is a stat for you. 1 out of every 4 kids in America under the age of 5 today will develop diabetes’s by the time they are 25 . Is that not eye opening enough for you? We are screwing over our children and creating massive health problems in this country but hey, we have freedom of choice. Oh, but the church will only worry so much about that Epidemic.

The church talks about Pornography constantly. Last time I checked, Porn wasn’t killing people but I don’t condone it either. How much should the church condone porn viewing? Once a week? Twice every year? 5 times daily? Where do you draw the line there?

Can you give me a good reason/reasons why the church warns SO BOLDLY and so frequently about Pornography? We here it in General Conference all the time. I don’t hear much about bad eating in Conference even though it’s worse than Porn. Is a member gonna stand up and say….Hey, don’t judge me just because I watch porn. It’s easy to chastise those who watch porn and why does the church care so much about it?

gdog, the abstinence from coffee is a covenant, so regardless, we are going to get blessed because of it. It isn't solely through the natural laws.

In addition, addictions can be worse slavery than physical slavery... so it doesn't matter that porn isn't killing people. In fact, in some ways, it's worse... because... it's not only destroying their life, but it's also keeping them alive to regret it later for a very very long time.

As for diabetes, I'm sure the church has taken notice of it... or at least the problem of being overweight ... I just suspect it hasn't hit any big news =P.

Edited October 27, 2011 by TAO

[mfbukowski]

Overeating and heart disease due to poor eating habits and lack of exercise is an NATIONAL EPIDEMIC in the USA. Coffee drinking is not. And let’s face it, how much spiritual potential can you have when addicted to food, sugar and being overweight compared to one who is physically fit? No different than being addicted to coffee except that coffee actually has some health benefits. My mission President was asked why he jogged 8 miles every morning. He replied, “So I can serve the Lord better”

Here is a stat for you. 1 out of every 4 kids in America under the age of 5 today will develop diabetes’s by the time they are 25 . Is that not eye opening enough for you? We are screwing over our children and creating massive health problems in this country but hey, we have freedom of choice. Oh, but the church will only worry so much about that Epidemic.

The church talks about Pornography constantly. Last time I checked, Porn wasn’t killing people but I don’t condone it either. How much should the church condone porn viewing? Once a week? Twice every year? 5 times daily? Where do you draw the line there?

Can you give me a good reason/reasons why the church warns SO BOLDLY and so frequently about Pornography? We here it in General Conference all the time. I don’t hear much about bad eating in Conference even though it’s worse than Porn. Is a member gonna stand up and say….Hey, don’t judge me just because I watch porn. It’s easy to chastise those who watch porn and why does the church care so much about it?

It destroys marriage. Period.

I have personally experienced trying to council 3 couples in one ward who's marriages are falling apart due to pornography. It sets up false expectations and encourages treating ones spouse as an object instead of having loving relationships, and becoming "one flesh" with your spouse. Pornography underlines the idea of TWO objects objectifying each other. That is not the gospel.

Go ahead. Watch it all you like. Have your fun. Hope your marriage is wonderful when you are 65 and your wife no longer looks like a porn queen.

I teach my family what I know to be true.

Overeating is bad, and you can MAYBE make a case that it will affect you in the eternities, but if porn destroys your marriage, it WILL affect your eternity.

Have fun!

I avoid it like the plague it is.

Edited October 27, 2011 by mfbukowski

[LeSellers]

[Porn] destroys marriage. Period.

..

Go ahead. Watch it all you like. Have your fun. Hope your marriage is wonderful when you are 65 and your wife no longer looks like a porn queen.

...

I avoid it like the plague it is.

I just read an article from Britain where they found that porn makes men impotent. (I overstated their case a bit, but only a bit.)

Lehi

[gdog]

gdog, the abstinence from coffee is a covenant, so regardless, we are going to get blessed because of it. It isn't solely through the natural laws.

In addition, addictions can be worse slavery than physical slavery... so it doesn't matter that porn isn't killing people. In fact, in some ways, it's worse... because... it's not only destroying their life, but it's also keeping them alive to regret it later for a very very long time.

As for diabetes, I'm sure the church has taken notice of it... or at least the problem of being overweight ... I just suspect it hasn't hit any big news =P.

Starvation in itself is much worse in this world than the issue of Pornography. Every day, almost 16,000 children die from hunger-related causes. That's one child every five seconds. Instead of concentrating on Porn and building temples all over the world let’s fight world hunger and poverty. Let’s not spend approximately 1.5 billion on downtown Slat Lake projects and let’s put it towards trying to cure terrible diseases and medical research. I know Heavenly Father would spend money on a mall in downtown Salt Lake rather than disperse that money towards humanitarian efforts and when you really break that down it’s absurd to even think the church would put that much money toward beautifying a town.

Here is really the bottom line. The church cannot address certain subjects because it will offend too many people. You will not offend a whole lot of people about Porn because most people try to hide this and it is possible to do that and anything sexual has ALWAYS been taboo in religion. It’s nothing new. Overeating and health problems are being noticed much more in the last 20 years or so especially today with the science and knowledge we have obtained. You can’t hide fat. You can’t hide diabetes and heart problems. If the church held campaigns on these types of problems there would be a literal uproar. Members would be saying... leave me alone, I can choose what I want to eat. But it’s interesting because you don't hear active members saying that with coffee. The church can go out on a full attack with Porn because it is very easy to do and the church needs to set up these crusades much like a politician does in there own campaigning. Pick a topic and sticking with it shows strength and leadership. The church is not the only organization doing this with Porn.

What if coffee just came out as a forbidden drink and was not included in the original WOW. How would that go over in the church? It would be impossible to come out with such a revelation today but that would be a great test of faith. But the coffee doctrine has always been so it’s easy to uphold. It was much easier 200 years ago to come out with policy and doctrine and members and times were of course different back then.

I am not saying the church should not warn of anything detrimental to our lives. We all know porn has bad affects but again, it’s easy to pound your fists with porn and that is exactly why it is done. The more ground you try to hold the more affect you have on membership.

All I hear is that the spirit will let us know what is appropriate and what is not. Many members claim the spirit prompts them in many ways but I have never heard in church the spirit prompting a person to start treating there bodies the way they should. It’s never a prompting about physical well being. Why is the spirit not working like it should when it comes to abusing your body with food and laziness? It's not the spirits lack of communication it's the individuals lack of caring. We know we have a body given to us from Heavenly Father but we make excuses. That’s all it comes down to.

[altersteve]

Starvation is absolutely NOT a worse issue than pornography. Starvation results in physical death, but pornography results in spiritual death (i.e., separation from God), which is much, much worse.

[gdog]

It destroys marriage. Period. I have personally experienced trying to council 3 couples in one ward who's marriages are falling apart due to pornography. It sets up false expectations and encourages treating ones spouse as an object instead of having loving relationships, and becoming "one flesh" with your spouse. Pornography underlines the idea of TWO objects objectifying each other. That is not the gospel. Go ahead. Watch it all you like. Have your fun. Hope your marriage is wonderful when you are 65 and your wife no longer looks like a porn queen. I teach my family what I know to be true. Overeating is bad, and you can MAYBE make a case that it will affect you in the eternities, but if porn destroys your marriage, it WILL affect your eternity. Have fun! I avoid it like the plague it is.

I don't disagree with that.

[Sky]

Starvation in itself is much worse in this world than the issue of Pornography. Every day, almost 16,000 children die from hunger-related causes. That's one child every five seconds. Instead of concentrating on Porn and building temples all over the world let’s fight world hunger and poverty. Let’s not spend approximately 1.5 billion on downtown Slat Lake projects and let’s put it towards trying to cure terrible diseases and medical research. I know Heavenly Father would spend money on a mall in downtown Salt Lake rather than disperse that money towards humanitarian efforts and when you really break that down it’s absurd to even think the church would put that much money toward beautifying a town.

The Church does plenty of humanitarian work. Ever visited Welfare Square? Remember everything the Church did to help after Hurricane Katrina? To find out more, visit here.

Porn is evil and destroys marriages. Building temples brings the blessings of the restored gospel to God's children on both sides of the veil. These things are important to the Lord, and that is why the Lord's prophets concentrate on them.

And I trust that you won't be shopping at the City Creek Center when it opens. Would you rather there be a slum surrounding Temple Square?

What if coffee just came out as a forbidden drink and was not included in the original WOW. How would that go over in the church? It would be impossible to come out with such a revelation today but that would be a great test of faith. But the coffee doctrine has always been so it’s easy to uphold. It was much easier 200 years ago to come out with policy and doctrine and members and times were of course different back then.

It always amazes me how many people need coffee to wake up in the morning. It is an addiction. But that is not a problem for people who obey the Word of Wisdom. What our bodies really need in the morning is a nutritious breakfast. I can attest that it really works.

[gdog]

Starvation is absolutely NOT a worse issue than pornography. Starvation results in physical death, but pornography results in spiritual death (i.e., separation from God), which is much, much worse.

LOL, your thinking is truly Celestial.

[gdog]

The Church does plenty of humanitarian work. Ever visited Welfare Square? Remember everything the Church did to help after Hurricane Katrina? To find out more, visit here.

Porn is evil and destroys marriages. Building temples brings the blessings of the restored gospel to God's children on both sides of the veil. These things are important to the Lord, and that is why the Lord's prophets concentrate on them.

And I trust that you won't be shopping at the City Creek Center when it opens. Would you rather there be a slum surrounding Temple Square?

If I had to choose, I would take 1.5 Billion and use it on cancer research rather than build a really nice downtown. You? It was a business decision. Nothing else.

[gdog]

Starvation is absolutely NOT a worse issue than pornography. Starvation results in physical death, but pornography results in spiritual death (i.e., separation from God), which is much, much worse.

Let's say you came across a group of people somewhere in the world and they were experiencing starvation and having issues with pornography. Would your efforts first be to cure the porn or feed them?

[gdog]

It always amazes me how many people need coffee to wake up in the morning. It is an addiction. But that is not a problem for people who obey the Word of Wisdom. What our bodies really need in the morning is a nutritious breakfast. I can attest that it really works.

Easy solution.... Decaf, but that is still against the WOW. Maybe because it is too hot?

[LeSellers]

If I had to choose, I would take 1.5 Billion and use it on cancer research rather than build a really nice downtown. You? It was a business decision. Nothing else.

Wrong yet again.

It may have been a business decision (and your implication that there is something wrong with that is duly noted, and trashed as it should have been), but it was far more than that.

It was a missionary decision, it was a public safety decision, it was an enhance-the-Temple-area decision, too. And, from my perspective, it was these far more than it was your option.

Temple Square is Utah's most popular tourist attraction, More missionary referrals come from Temple Square than any other place on earth. No one would deny that a typical inner-city look would not make that venue as enticing to non-LDS tourists.

Other inner-cities (including Rome, near Vatican City) have become crime-riddled and extremely dangerous. This also impacts on tourism, but people who work in the Church Office building deserve to be safe as they commute. The many people the Joseph Smith Memorial Building serves as chapels deserve their peace of mind as they go to and from church meetings.

The Temple provides a resort from the world and it's cares. Panhandlers, drunks, and other distractions abutting the Temple entrances already make getting into the proper frame of mind and spirit more difficult than it should be. By making the area more inviting to legitimate passers by, the City Creek project will make the experience of Temple worshipers more impactful and inspiring.

Cancer research is nice, but as others have said, physical life is not all there is to life.

Lehi

[gdog]

Wrong yet again.

It may have been a business decision (and your implication that there is something wrong with that is duly noted, and trashed as it should have been), but it was far more than that.

It was a missionary decision, it was a public safety decision, it was an enhance-the-Temple-area decision, too. And, from my perspective, it was these far more than it was your option.

Temple Square is Utah's most popular tourist attraction, More missionary referrals come from Temple Square than any other place on earth. No one would deny that a typical inner-city look would not make that venue as enticing to non-LDS tourists.

Other inner-cities (including Rome, near Vatican City) have become crime-riddled and extremely dangerous. This also impacts on tourism, but people who work in the Church Office building deserve to be safe as they commute. The many people the Joseph Smith Memorial Building serves as chapels deserve their peace of mind as they go to and from church meetings.

The Temple provides a resort from the world and it's cares. Panhandlers, drunks, and other distractions abutting the Temple entrances already make getting into the proper frame of mind and spirit more difficult than it should be. By making the area more inviting to legitimate passers by, the City Creek project will make the experience of Temple worshipers more impactful and inspiring.

Cancer research is nice, but as others have said, physical life is not all there is to life.

Lehi

Have you had somebody in your immediate family die of cancer? Hits a lot closer to home.

Edited October 27, 2011 by gdog

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Have you had somebody in your immediate family die of cancer? Hits a lot closer to home.

Sure have and what of it?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

"

Does God Really Change"

Yes, he does. Now we must ask, "In what ways does God change".

[gdog]

"

Does God Really Change"

Yes, he does. Now we must ask, "In what ways does God change".

He must change. He instructed some men in the early church to marry more than one women and then he said not to and is now currently deplored in the family centered church. But it will be back in the Celestial Glories. He also changes because wickedness does not literally change one's skin color in modern times like it did in the ancient Americas.

[gdog]

Sure have and what of it?

So I assume you thought...."I am glad we don't concentrate too much on saving lives on this earth because it's just a probationary time anyway".

If you had a chid with a rare disease I assume you would think its best to throw 1.5 Billion into a downtown project and not the disease that is affecting the child that you dealry love. If the spirt of the Lord is truly in your heart a beautifull downtown doesnt mean much and if it means more than life itself then we are different. Whats the point of anything we do here on earth if it's just a blink of an eye anyway? We will have plenty of time after this life to "get things right". Why do we go to doctors and why do we try to live longer? Why not just belong to one of those faith healing churches? If it's your time it's your time. This life doesnt mean that much anyway when we compare it to the eternities.

Take a look at this video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiC_9RHTvsA

This is a man has it right. Me and most of us can't hold a candle to such giving. Or maybe he should work as a construction guy on the downtown project because that is giving more to the real purpose of life rather than feeding those who have less than us. The true core spirit of Christ is just this. Not a cool Mall and nicer temple grounds. It's all in the New Testament.

Edited October 27, 2011 by gdog