Lds Persecution Question.

[Mudcat]

Many religions have suffered persecutions for their beliefs.

Early Christianity suffered at the hands of Rome so did the Jews.

Islam has suffered at the hands of many. Like Islam the Jews have suffered under the hands of many.

Catholics suffered persecution by many including the the hands of Protestants and Protestants have suffered persecution by the Catholics the 30 years war was one of history's most bloody conflicts.

Several million, if not 10's of millions have died under religious persecutions.. and I don't mean to short sell Hinduism or the Eastern religions in this trail of blood. I just don't know much about them.

To the point, I understand that Joseph Smith and his brother were killed by a mob. I would like to know more about the persecutions that the CoJCoLDS have undergone through time.

What do you think, beyond the death of Joseph and Hyrum, were the CoJCoLDS worst episodes of persecution?

edit add.. I typed "LDS" in the title but it came out "Lds" dunno why... If the moderators have the ability, please correct that. Thanks so much.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Mudcat

[Nathair/|\]

From my pov, the worst were the Extermination order, the Utah war/Buchanan's blunder, and the criminalization of polygamy/dis-incorporation of the Church. I think these were the worst because they were systematic and sponsored by the full authority of the state and federal governments. They also came as close as anything to actually succeeding.

From other perspectives, one could argue that those that caused the greatest loss of life or the ones that reduced the number of members and leaders were more significant.

[annewandering]

After the saints left Nauvoo and went to the Salt Lake Valley I would guess the worst persecution came when the government sent in sheriffs to break up polygamous families. They were not content to prevent the practice. They wanted to jail the husbands and leave the wives and children unprotected. Can you imagine how horrible it would be to have to hide your family from sudden raids in the night to protect them? They were told that their wives were not theirs and that their children were illegitimate. Many husbands spent years in jail away from their families because they would not deny them. Not only the husbands but wives were jailed. Sometimes to draw the husbands out so they could be jailed.

Even if you did not agree with their choices how hard a heart did it take to take fathers from their children leaving them destitute?

I do not have any ancestors who were involved in this madness but my heart just breaks at the thought.

Today when I see news stories about polygamous families being rounded up and children ripped from their families it just makes me cringe. It seems so much like a witch hunt to me. Give gay people the right to marry but for heavens sake dont let people have families if its not like the norm.

Edited October 13, 2011 by annewandering

[Mudcat]

From my pov, the worst were the Extermination order, the Utah war/Buchanan's blunder, and the criminalization of polygamy/dis-incorporation of the Church. I think these were the worst because they were systematic and sponsored by the full authority of the state and federal governments. They also came as close as anything to actually succeeding.

From other perspectives, one could argue that those that caused the greatest loss of life or the ones that reduced the number of members and leaders were more significant.

How many were killed? I don't mean to sound gory, but I would like to know.. if you have the information available.

[blackstrap]

Compared to other times and places ,the LDS have seen only a small amount of persecution. As a percentage of the membership the trouble in Missouri and SL valley were considerable. As a religious organization,we have been mostly ignored or mocked.There was nothing like being fed to the lions or crucified enmass. It's really quite fortuitous that we arrived on the scene in the 19th century and not the 7th.

[mapman]

The worst was definitely the Missouri Mormon War. 21 people killed and thousands of people had their property taken and were expelled from the state. The federal government refused to do anything about it because it would have been unpopular.

The Illinois Mormon War and the Utah War and the anti-polygamy stuff done by the government were also pretty bad (I'm not saying that we were perfectly innocent about everything, but I think we were still treated unfairly).

There was also persecution in New York and Ohio.

It was good that the Church was started in the US. Other places probably would have been a lot worse.

Edited October 13, 2011 by mapman

[annewandering]

There are numbers available on how many died in Illinois and on the trek west. I doubt there are numbers on how many have died since from what would be termed hate crimes or by raiding families to arrest polygamous men.

There were many more than 21 who died as a result of the mobs and trek west to escape them. Nearly every family had members who were killed or died.

Edited October 13, 2011 by annewandering

[Nathair/|\]

How many were killed? I don't mean to sound gory, but I would like to know.. if you have the information available.

I don't have numbers ready to hand, and someone else will probably post them before I can get them. From what I think I remember, in the Utah war, a mule was shot and a handful of people had accidents. I could well be wrong on that. But it had the potential to be a blood bath. I rank it as high as I do because the troops were sent by the federal government.

[Storm Rider]

From my pov, the worst were the Extermination order, the Utah war/Buchanan's blunder, and the criminalization of polygamy/dis-incorporation of the Church. I think these were the worst because they were systematic and sponsored by the full authority of the state and federal governments. They also came as close as anything to actually succeeding.

From other perspectives, one could argue that those that caused the greatest loss of life or the ones that reduced the number of members and leaders were more significant.

ditto

[thesometimesaint]

Though not in total numbers killed, but for pure viciousness Haun's Mill leads my choice.

[Storm Rider]

Mudcat, I think that many groups remember specific events that are never forgotten. For the LDS people, the Extermination Order is such an experience. At no other time in the history of the USA has a state actually chosen to exterminate a people except for this single event.

How are LDS supposed to handle polls that indicate the vast majority of Americans would never vote for a Mormon? Is that fact a result of persecution or a mindset of socially acceptable persecution? What type of person so blithely admits to such a position?

Many accuse LDS of having a persecution complex, but I would like someone to explain why they shouldn't have such a complex? If a majority feel they could not vote for a LDS, how many would never hire a LDS? How many would never extend a helping hand if they knew the person was a LDS? How many tell their children not to socialize with the LDS children? These are things that occur dailly in the lives of LDS throughout the nation. It never goes away; it does not stop; it is just something that exists for those who committ to being a LDS.

I think that EVs are so anti-Mormon because it allows them to excuse their actions against LDS and the LDS Church. Of course, it could just be that those that act this way are wovles in sheep's clothing; they know not Chirst and their hearts are far from the Savior.

[thesometimesaint]

Storm Rider:

It is a modern day type of persecution to tell us what we believe. It comes across as arrogant and bigoted.

[Storm Rider]

Storm Rider:

It is a modern day type of persecution to tell us what we believe. It comes across as arrogant and bigoted.

I agree. It is a never-ending, arrogant position that does not seem to stop. Somehow they feel entitled to dictate to us what we believe, what we emphasize in our teachings, while maintiaining a closed position of never hearing they are wrong. Strange set of circumstances LDS are forced to deal with. I suspect it may just be a common problem of the minority-majority positions, but it seems more than that; something visceral.

As a group I dislike EVs; they are the type of people that would be ready to hang Jesus on the cross again without any understanding of their actions. I am reminded of Ionescos' Rhinoceros. I think they run totally on emotion without rational thought and move in large groups mindlessly.

[CQUIRK]

Of course Haun's Mill & the Missouri Extermination Order should be included.

I think we could regard the migration treks to Utah as our own Trail of Tears, since we were forced to move west- hundreds of Saints died from hunger, disease, cold, even fatigue when journeying westward to find a place where they could live in peace.

[Jaybear]

After the saints left Nauvoo and went to the Salt Lake Valley I would guess the worst persecution came when the government sent in sheriffs to break up polygamous families.

This was not persecution but prosecution. Polygamy was illegal. Mormons were breaking the law.

People who break the law, believing they are acting in furtherance of higher calling or principle, always seem to claim persecution when they are brought to justice.

At no other time in the history of the USA has a state actually chosen to exterminate a people except for this single event.

More accurately, after hostilities broke out, the Governor threatened the Mormons with "extermination" or removal. The Mormons choose to leave, bringing an end to the hostilities. Mormons were not actually exterminated, as you seem to imply.

This order bears a striking parallel to the Danite Manifesto, by which Mormon dissenters were threatened with death if they choose not to leave the county.

I also suspect Boggs chose the word "extermination" in response to Rigdon's threat of a war a extermination.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

Incorrect, the second the Saints left the US they were not subject to its laws.

[Storm Rider]

More accurately, after hostilities broke out, the Governor threatened the Mormons with "extermination" or removal. The Mormons choose to leave, bringing an end to the hostilities. Mormons were not actually exterminated, as you seem to imply.

This order bears a striking parallel to the Danite Manifesto, by which Mormon dissenters were threatened with death if they choose not to leave the county.

I also suspect Boggs chose the word "extermination" in response to Rigdon's threat of a war a extermination.

Oh, a typical anti-Mormon response; how novel! First, I did not imply they were exterminated; I said they were threatened with extermination. Your position is a distinction without a differece. You blame the LDS for leaving before they could be exterminated? You think that is not a logical response to the threat from the state to either leave or be exterminated? Here, just a minute I have to heave over my shoes. Tell me, Jay, did the Jews get a notice to leave or be exterminated? It is sad they had any degree of confidence in their gentle government. Mormons just chose to leave; blame them for being stupid I guess.

What in the name of Heaven does it matter what the Danites did? Which of course, the Danites are not the LDS Church; earth to Jay, earth to Jay! Pull the head out and breathe some fresh air the mind is going stale.

Yes, that's right. The Governor was just being spiteful because his feelings got hurt. Get out or I will exterminate you feels just a touch different when a State says it rather than a citizen. Or do you actually think they are equal? Earth to Jay, your tubes working in there or is there a problem on Mars?

Edited October 13, 2011 by Storm Rider

[thesometimesaint]

Zakuska:

James Buchanan was possibly our first homosexual President. We've had plenty of adulterers, philanderers, crooks, and liars, thieves, drunks, and miscreants of all types as Presidents.

[boblloyd91]

No matter how you look at it, innocent people were beaten, shot, and raped in Missouri. How is that not persecution? How can people look at Haun's Mill and not call that persecution? I currently live in Idaho and just recently learned that Mormons were not allowed to vote for a time. I can't think about this subject too long or my blood starts to boil.

[thesometimesaint]

But that's different you see BECAUSE we're Mormons it's OK.

Edited October 13, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Jaybear]

Oh, a typical anti-Mormon response; how novel!

Yeah, okay. I guess if you can't admit you are wrong, you should play that card.

Your first false statement:

First, I did not imply they were exterminated; I said they were threatened with extermination.

Yes you did.

You said: At no other time in the history of the USA has a state actually chosen to exterminate a people except for this single event.

Note you did not say "...chosen to THREATEN TO exterminate."

Your second false statement:

You blame the LDS for leaving before they could be exterminated?

Nothing I said stated or implied that the LDS were to "blame." That is just your imagination getting the better of you.

What in the name of Heaven does it matter what the Danites did? Which of course, the Danites are not the LDS Church; earth to Jay, earth to Jay! Pull the head out and breathe some fresh air the mind is going stale.

Danites were Mormons. The extermination order was directed at Mormons. See the connection.

We live in a different time.

Yes, that's right. The Governor was just being spiteful because his feelings got hurt. Get out or I will exterminate you feels just a touch different when a State says it rather than a man. Or do you actually think they are equal? Earth to Jay, your tubes working in there or is there a problem on Mars?

I didn't say the governor was being spiteful, or that his feelings were hurt. I simply suggested its not a coincidence that employed the same term Rigdon employed. As for RIgdon being merely "a man." Did he not have an official position with the LDS Church?

[Jaybear]

Jaybear:

Incorrect, the second the Saints left the US they were not subject to its laws.

Treaty of Guadalupe Hildaldgo, 1848.

Section 132 aptopted by LDS Church 1857.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Jaybear

[Calm]

How are LDS supposed to handle polls that indicate the vast majority of Americans would never vote for a Mormon?

CFR please. I do not remember polls of either a vast majority (which I would put at a min. Of 75%) or even a majority, though I do remember we are the second highest, just under Muslims.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

Mormons left in 1846.

[Mudcat]

@ All, thanks for your responses. My initial search for information on the topic, yielded little, thus the impetus for me to open a thread on it.

Especially appreciative of the links. Based on what I have read so far, I am in agreement with some the posters like Storm Rider, in that this Extermination order It would appear to be something that would be unforgettable.

However, in terms of physical suffering, loss of life and that sort of thing it sounds like the exodus of LDS to the West was the highest. Though I suppose such an event is directly tied to the Extermination order.

If anyone is aware of more specific documentation on the Westward traverse of LDS, please post a link.

How are LDS supposed to handle polls that indicate the vast majority of Americans would never vote for a Mormon? Is that fact a result of persecution or a mindset of socially acceptable persecution? What type of person so blithely admits to such a position?

While I do think opting not to vote for someone on religious grounds is prejudicial, I don't see such a thing as persecution. I don't think the polls actually indicate the vast majority of Americans hold such a prejudice. I was thinking it was around the 25% mark.

Many accuse LDS of having a persecution complex, but I would like someone to explain why they shouldn't have such a complex? If a majority feel they could not vote for a LDS, how many would never hire a LDS? How many would never extend a helping hand if they knew the person was a LDS? How many tell their children not to socialize with the LDS children? These are things that occur dailly in the lives of LDS throughout the nation. It never goes away; it does not stop; it is just something that exists for those who committ to being a LDS.

I think if you feel that because a non-LDS person feels uncomfortable voting for an LDS is an act of persecution, then IMO you do have a bit of a complex.

As far as hiring practices, I don't imagine LDS are underemployed in comparison to other religions. So you may be making a faulty parallel. I think the same could be said for charitable action.

The decision to not socialize children, would be prejudicial for sure. But I don't think if such were the case, the parental intent would be to persecute LDS either. Also, if these circumstances exist.. it is possible that their inverse exists where heavy concentrations of LDS are prevalent in comparison to other religious views.

I think that EVs are so anti-Mormon because it allows them to excuse their actions against LDS and the LDS Church. Of course, it could just be that those that act this way are wovles in sheep's clothing; they know not Chirst and their hearts are far from the Savior.

Based on this statment

As a group I dislike EVs; they are the type of people that would be ready to hang Jesus on the cross again without any understanding of their actions. I am reminded of Ionescos' Rhinoceros. I think they run totally on emotion without rational thought and move in large groups mindlessly.

and this one

It is apparent you have a low opinion of EV's. Makes one wonder if you would vote for one, hire one, let your kids play with them, lend them a helping hand... that sort of thing;)

Edited October 13, 2011 by Mudcat