Coming To A Town Near You (Slc); “Compassionate Boldness”.

[california boy]

While it may surprise, I can't imagine that roster of speakers doing anything beyond what they have done in the past. Absent evidence to the contrary, it seems safe to assume this will be another in the ongoing series.

Lehi

Since others seem to have jumped on your comment equating it to dog vomit and leopard strips, can you tell me what the worst thing this group has said about Mormons? I am just not familiar with the group and it seems like there is a lot of animosity towards them for what has been said in the past and what will be said at the conference. Personally I didn't find anything too tragic on their proposed speaker agenda. It all seemed like a discussion about the difference between evangelic beliefs and Mormon beliefs. And that after all is what the conference is about.

[california boy]

It's not free, as all LDS functions are. I believe it's $50 to attend.

See post #1 in this topic for the advertisement and pricing.

Oh, and it's not for you anyway, it's for those who are trying to destroy The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Lehi

You act as if every LDS function is free. They are not. Educaton Week, Especially for Youth conference, Girls Camp to name a few. This point just seems petty.

[hthalljr]

Yeah well. I have been told by Mormons that I am going to hell as well under the guise of compassionate boldness . . . .

My standard answer when someone tells me I am going to hell is, "Why, thank you, I'm planning on it!" If my "compassionately bold" friend happens to ask why, I might tell him. (D&C 138:57 http://bit.ly/iAE18u )

Tracy Hall Jr

hthalljr'gmail'com

[selek1]

You act as if every LDS function is free. They are not. Educaton Week, Especially for Youth conference, Girls Camp to name a few. This point just seems petty.

And yet none of the functions you just cited are designed and operated to brief people on how to undermine testimonies, tear down faith, or demolish the religion of other people.

The events you listed are all uplifting events designed to bolster rather than destroy.

In the case of the COmpassionate Boldness crowd, they are paying to be inculcated into a venture with a specific mission involved.

If you really want to compare the Compassionate Boldness program to something with parallels in Mormon culture, I suggest you use an Amway or other MLM demonstration.

[california boy]

So is it about the money or is it about the subject of the conference. If it is about the money, then sometimes LDS events have an entry fee. If it is about the subject matter, then you should address that point and leave the money issue out of the discussion.

[selek1]

So is it about the money or is it about the subject of the conference.

You offer a false dichotomy here. It need not be one or the other, as a reasonable person can object to both.

In this instance, the organizers are charging money to teach people to destroy the faith of others and to deliberately dehumanize them in the name of sectarian boundary maintenance.

While one could argue that this is no different than charging 49ers fans admission to a Green Bay Packers game, there are demonstrable differences.

All in all, charging people to teach them to destroy the faith of others goes beyond reasonable and delves into the mercenary.

Like the IRR, Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson, these people make their bread-and-butter off stirring up contention, trading in half-truths and falsehoods, and perpetuating misunderstanding.

They are lining thier pockets on the misery and contention of others- and have a vested interest in perpetuating the alleged "rift".

If it is about the money, then sometimes LDS events have an entry fee.

But LDS events are NEVER about tearing down or destroying the faith of others. We charge to cover expenses for specific venues, not to line the pockets of those making the presentations.

If it is about the subject matter, then you should address that point and leave the money issue out of the discussion.

In your opinion. Others can and will disagree.

[california boy]

You offer a false dichotomy here. It need not be one or the other, as a reasonable person can object to both.

In this instance, the organizers are charging money to teach people to destroy the faith of others and to deliberately dehumanize them in the name of sectarian boundary maintenance.

While one could argue that this is no different than charging 49ers fans admission to a Green Bay Packers game, there are demonstrable differences.

All in all, charging people to teach them to destroy the faith of others goes beyond reasonable and delves into the mercenary.

Like the IRR, Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson, these people make their bread-and-butter off stirring up contention, trading in half-truths and falsehoods, and perpetuating misunderstanding.

They are lining thier pockets on the misery and contention of others- and have a vested interest in perpetuating the alleged "rift".

But LDS events are NEVER about tearing down or destroying the faith of others. We charge to cover expenses for specific venues, not to line the pockets of those making the presentations.

In your opinion. Others can and will disagree.

Oh brother, arent you being a bit over dramatic? Just tell me what this compassionate boldness conference is doing that is going to " destroy the faith of others and to deliberately dehumanize them in the name of sectarian boundary maintenance." And are you trying to say if the conference was free you wouldn't have any problem with it?

[hthalljr]

Since others seem to have jumped on your comment equating it to dog vomit and leopard strips, can you tell me what the worst thing this group has said about Mormons? . . . .

A web search on the name of almost any of the presenters should provide a sufficient sample. They do indeed say unkind things about my religion.

Nevertheless, after reviewing Mormon's standard for judging that which is good (invite and entice to do good, and to love God, and to serve him) and judging that which is evil (persuade men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God), I hesitate to make the call. (Moroni 7:12-20 http://bit.ly/o49FIB) If nothing else, they strengthen us through opposition. Maybe that's even their divinely-appointed calling.

For all I know, one or more of them could be a Saul-of-Tarsus-in-waiting. And if I believe them to be my enemies, I have all the more reason to love them, bless them, do good to them, and pray for them. ( Matthew 5:44-45 http://bit.ly/ojb3uA , 3 Nephi 12:44-45 http://bit.ly/qnfEVN )

Tracy Hall Jr

hthalljr'gmail'com

[california boy]

A web search on the name of almost any of the presenters should provide a sufficient sample. They do indeed say unkind things about my religion.

Nevertheless, after reviewing Mormon's standard for judging that which is good (invite and entice to do good, and to love God, and to serve him) and judging that which is evil (persuade men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God), I hesitate to make the call. (Moroni 7:12-20 http://bit.ly/o49FIB) If nothing else, they strengthen us through opposition. Maybe that's even their divinely-appointed calling.

For all I know, one or more of them could be a Saul-of-Tarsus-in-waiting. And if I believe them to be my enemies, I have all the more reason to love them, bless them, do good to them, and pray for them. ( Matthew 5:44-45 http://bit.ly/ojb3uA , 3 Nephi 12:44-45 http://bit.ly/qnfEVN )

Tracy Hall Jr

hthalljr'gmail'com

There, see, isn't that better than comparing their conference to dog vomit.

[selek1]

There, see, isn't that better than comparing their conference to dog vomit.

Perhaps if you were more familiar with the Scriptures, you might recognize the Scriptural references involved.

I can understand why your delicate sensibilities might be offended by the references, they nonetheless remain a perfectly acceptable simile for the conference and its organizers.

Oh brother, arent you being a bit over dramatic? Just tell me what this compassionate boldness conference is doing that is going to " destroy the faith of others and to deliberately dehumanize them in the name of sectarian boundary maintenance."

Perhaps, in your opinion, I am.

But then again, its not your ox being gored.

And are you trying to say if the conference was free you wouldn't have any problem with it?

Were it free, they might at least have the courage of their convictions.

As it stands, they're little more than mercenaries, stirring up contention and controversy simply to line thier own pockets.

[california boy]

Perhaps if you were more familiar with the Scriptures, you might recognize the Scriptural references involved.

I can understand why your delicate sensibilities might be offended by the references, they nonetheless remain a perfectly acceptable simile for the conference and its organizers.

What makes you think I am not familiar with the scriptures. I taught seminary for 6 years. I also once went through the Book of Mormon verse by verse, thought about what each verse said and wrote what I thought the meaning of each verse was about. I am not saying I know everything about the scriptures, but I would be hard pressed for anyone to say I was unfamiliar with the scriptures.

Perhaps, in your opinion, I am.

But then again, its not your ox being gored.

What makes

Were it free, they might at least have the courage of their convictions.

As it stands, they're little more than mercenaries, stirring up contention and controversy simply to line thier own pockets.

I hear a lot of accusations, I have yet to hear you say what they are doing to stir up contention and controversy. It would be really helpful here if you could tell me specifically what you think they will say that will fulfill any of the accusations you have made against them.

A simple question. What are they teaching that makes you feel they are:

charging people to teach them to destroy the faith of others

stir up contention and controversy

If you are just spouting these things out and have no actual reason for saying such inflammatory statements, then fine. Flame away.

A simple question. What are they teaching that makes you feel they are

[selek1]

What makes you think I am not familiar with the scriptures.

Well, the fact that you apparently didn't get the "dog returning to its vomit" and "leopard changing its spots" references seems pretty straightforward....but I yield to your claim on this one.

I am not saying I know everything about the scriptures, but I would be hard pressed for anyone to say I was unfamiliar with the scriptures.

Since someone has already suggested it, you can't be all that hard pressed for anyone to say it.

I hear a lot of accusations, I have yet to hear you say what they are doing to stir up contention and controversy.

Perhaps you should look at the extensive history both on this board elsewhere between these individuals and the facts.

Rather than demanding that we teach you all the world's wisdom while standing on one foot, you might discover for yourself that these individuals have a long and ignoble history of attempting to undermine and destroy the Mormon faith.

A simple question. What are they teaching that makes you feel they are:

charging people to teach them to destroy the faith of others

The fact that these symposiums are not free automagically means that they are charging people to hear their message.

As to their message, their own statements and antics stand in ample testimony against them.

From their own website:

The Compassionate Boldness Symposium, sponsored by MRM, is a four-hour learning experience that will help you understand the differences that have separated Mormonism from Christianity.

Note the verbiage here: "separated Mormons from Christianity". They might instead be honest and say "separted Mormonism from our particular interpretation of Christianity"- instead, they choose to go for the insulting, inflammatory, and bigoted.

Come learn how to use this information in a practical and Christ-honoring way to tell your Mormon friends about the hope that is within you — the hope that can be theirs as well.

In other words, Mormons- by virtue of their membership in teh Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints- cannot possibly honor Christ or have the same truth/hope that they do; and so the Mormons must be changed.

This is an antagonistic, us-versus-them, and confrontational posture in which Mormon faith must be undermined and replaced with MRM's dogma. They are attempting to teach others to undermine testimony of their Mormon neighbors, destroy their faith, and replace it with a dogma that they find more palatable- whether or not it is true or historically or logically tenable.

MRM- the Mormon Research Ministry- are the sponsors of these symposiums, and are an organization dedicated to the destruction f the Mormon faith. Not to understanding, nor to compassion, not to bridging the gaps, but to "educating" Mormons out of the LDS faith and into their own particular dogmatic sect.

The MRM has been called out many times- both by LDS and non-LDS scholars and organizations for the hateful and hysterical rhetoric and falsehoods they teach about the Mormon faith.

And yet they stubbornly persist in attacking and defaming the Mormon faith and those who practice it.

Again, from the Compassionate Boldness website:

I appreciate that you were able to use their own doctrine to unravel and speak the 'untruth.'

Note that they're not talking about bridging differences or clearing up misunderstandings. The aim is to unravel and expose the "untruths" of the Mormon faith. Their aim and intent is both combatative and hostile.

Plenary Speakers

• Rob Bowman
  
• Sandra Tanner
  
• Bill McKeever

These are their key note speakers- and every one is an avowed, practicing detractor and hater of the Mormon faith who's aim is the destruction of hte Mormon Church. All three have participated in previous seminars, publicity stunts, and shock-and-dispmay campaigns aimed at stirring up hatred and contention between the LDS and their neightbors.

How suspicious would you be of a conference on "Engaging the Homosexual Culture wth Compassionate Boldness" if the key note speakers were Aaron McKinney, Fred Phelps, and Jerry Falwell?

The list doesn't pass the snicker test: two of the three have been publically called out on numerous occasions for the radical liberties they've taken with the truth, and all three have been caught manipulating facts to support thier presuppositions.

All three have steadfastly held to their mischaracterizations of the Mormon doctrine- even when confronted with clear and unambiguous proof that their distortions were blatant falsehoods- but their ideological agendas trump mere facts. Two of the three (if not all three) make thier living solely from these seminars and the publishing of anti-Mormon dogma.

Here are their secondary speakers:

• Cory Anderson
  
• Ross Anderson
  
• Marv Cowan
  
• Mike Ghiglia
  
• Doris Hanson
  
• Rauni and Dennis Higley
  
• Bryan Hurlbutt
  
• Eric Johnson
  
• Loren Pankratz
  
• Aaron Shafovaloff
  
• Chip Thompson

At least one of these individuals is a foaming-at-the-mouth zealot who's literally spat on members of this board in his zeal to denounce the Mormon faith and the people who practice it. This same individual has been caught posting blatant falsehoods and "telling tales out of class" in order to foment derision of Mormons and division amongst Mormons and their neighbors.

These are the same bands of zealots and hate-mongers who protest Mormon pageants and events, stage sit-ins, block access to public venues and then cry and wail loud and long about how their civil rights are being violated while they terrorize innocent men, women, and children.

We KNOW these people, CaliBoy, and we distrust them for the same reasons you'd reject Phelps, Falwell, and McKinney.

We've dealt with them for decades.

We are admonished in Scripture that "by their fruits" we shall know them.

We've seen the bitter fruit of their bigotry and zealotry before- and we are still not impressed.

[Vance]

There, see, isn't that better than comparing their conference to dog vomit.

You seem to be unaware as to the source of the "dog" and "vomit" comment.

May I suggest you look here,

Prov. 26: 11 2 Pet. 2: 22 3 Ne. 7: 8

[cdowis]

What makes you think I am not familiar with the scriptures. I taught seminary for 6 years. I also once went through the Book of Mormon verse by verse, thought about what each verse said and wrote what I thought the meaning of each verse was about.

Interesting. This is off-topic, but which BOM prophet was a polygamist? It would take a very detailed analysis to get that one.

[Rob Bowman]

selek,

You wrote:

These are their key note speakers- and every one is an avowed, practicing detractor and hater of the Mormon faith who's aim is the destruction of hte Mormon Church. All three have participated in previous seminars, publicity stunts, and shock-and-dispmay campaigns aimed at stirring up hatred and contention between the LDS and their neightbors.

Since I'm on your list as one of the plenary speakers, I'll just speak for myself and ask you for evidence to back up this characterization of me.

[california boy]

Well, the fact that you apparently didn't get the "dog returning to its vomit" and "leopard changing its spots" references seems pretty straightforward....but I yield to your claim on this one.

Since someone has already suggested it, you can't be all that hard pressed for anyone to say it.

Perhaps you should look at the extensive history both on this board elsewhere between these individuals and the facts.

Rather than demanding that we teach you all the world's wisdom while standing on one foot, you might discover for yourself that these individuals have a long and ignoble history of attempting to undermine and destroy the Mormon faith.

The fact that these symposiums are not free automagically means that they are charging people to hear their message.

As to their message, their own statements and antics stand in ample testimony against them.

From their own website:

Note the verbiage here: "separated Mormons from Christianity". They might instead be honest and say "separted Mormonism from our particular interpretation of Christianity"- instead, they choose to go for the insulting, inflammatory, and bigoted.

In other words, Mormons- by virtue of their membership in teh Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints- cannot possibly honor Christ or have the same truth/hope that they do; and so the Mormons must be changed.

This is an antagonistic, us-versus-them, and confrontational posture in which Mormon faith must be undermined and replaced with MRM's dogma. They are attempting to teach others to undermine testimony of their Mormon neighbors, destroy their faith, and replace it with a dogma that they find more palatable- whether or not it is true or historically or logically tenable.

MRM- the Mormon Research Ministry- are the sponsors of these symposiums, and are an organization dedicated to the destruction f the Mormon faith. Not to understanding, nor to compassion, not to bridging the gaps, but to "educating" Mormons out of the LDS faith and into their own particular dogmatic sect.

The MRM has been called out many times- both by LDS and non-LDS scholars and organizations for the hateful and hysterical rhetoric and falsehoods they teach about the Mormon faith.

And yet they stubbornly persist in attacking and defaming the Mormon faith and those who practice it.

Again, from the Compassionate Boldness website:

Note that they're not talking about bridging differences or clearing up misunderstandings. The aim is to unravel and expose the "untruths" of the Mormon faith. Their aim and intent is both combatative and hostile.

These are their key note speakers- and every one is an avowed, practicing detractor and hater of the Mormon faith who's aim is the destruction of hte Mormon Church. All three have participated in previous seminars, publicity stunts, and shock-and-dispmay campaigns aimed at stirring up hatred and contention between the LDS and their neightbors.

How suspicious would you be of a conference on "Engaging the Homosexual Culture wth Compassionate Boldness" if the key note speakers were Aaron McKinney, Fred Phelps, and Jerry Falwell?

The list doesn't pass the snicker test: two of the three have been publically called out on numerous occasions for the radical liberties they've taken with the truth, and all three have been caught manipulating facts to support thier presuppositions.

All three have steadfastly held to their mischaracterizations of the Mormon doctrine- even when confronted with clear and unambiguous proof that their distortions were blatant falsehoods- but their ideological agendas trump mere facts. Two of the three (if not all three) make thier living solely from these seminars and the publishing of anti-Mormon dogma.

Here are their secondary speakers:

At least one of these individuals is a foaming-at-the-mouth zealot who's literally spat on members of this board in his zeal to denounce the Mormon faith and the people who practice it. This same individual has been caught posting blatant falsehoods and "telling tales out of class" in order to foment derision of Mormons and division amongst Mormons and their neighbors.

These are the same bands of zealots and hate-mongers who protest Mormon pageants and events, stage sit-ins, block access to public venues and then cry and wail loud and long about how their civil rights are being violated while they terrorize innocent men, women, and children.

We KNOW these people, CaliBoy, and we distrust them for the same reasons you'd reject Phelps, Falwell, and McKinney.

We've dealt with them for decades.

We are admonished in Scripture that "by their fruits" we shall know them.

We've seen the bitter fruit of their bigotry and zealotry before- and we are still not impressed.

Thanks for your answer. Let me just address the couple of things you commented on from their program.

Yes, they consider Mormons beliefs in who Christ was as different from theirs. Evangelics preach against this difference. Nothing new here. To some extent Mormons also preach against the evalgelic view of Christ. I certainly have been taught lessons on what the christian view of the Godhead and what the Mormon view of the Trinity. And personally their view does not make any sense to me at all. But I certainly don't get upset if they teach their beliefs and show the differences in those beliefs. I think some people listening to how Mormons view Christ might very well say, hey wait a minute, the Mormons view makes a lot more sense and certainly fits the scriptures better.

Your second point about honoring Christ is well inflamatory, maybe a little. But you got to read in a bit to take that stance. Not that big of deal to me. Of course this is an us verses them conference. But whenever a Mormon says something like We beleive in baptism for the dead, other churches do not make Mormon doctrine an us vs them situation. This shouldn't surprise you. Of course the Mormon church beleives things contrary to other christian churches. That is why the gospel was restored. I personally would like to see a person who is being attacked by evangelics stand up boldly and say YOU ARE RIGHT. While we worship Christ, He is our salvation, He is our Savior, We don't believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ, his only begotten son is the same person. So yes we have a different understanding of who Christ was. That seems like a much better way to confront this issue rather than whining that other churches don't consider them christian.

How suspicious would you be of a conference on "Engaging the Homosexual Culture wth Compassionate Boldness" if the key note speakers were Aaron McKinney, Fred Phelps, and Jerry Falwell?

I am not familiar with the speakers, but if you say they are like Aaron McKinney, Fred Phelps, and Jerry Falwell, then I will take your word for that. I totally understand your being upset about speakers that have a reputation to hate Mormons. Hey there is almost daily rallies, articles and news stories that completely distort gay issues as well. We hear things like kintergardeners will be taught about gay sex in the classrooms, or if gays are allowed to marry it will destroy the familes of America. These groups have been labled as hate groups as well. But they still get on national tv and spout their hate and lies. You gotta just live with it. You can't change these people. In the end, truth will win out. People will see through their lies and distortions. Educate the public and expose the lies. Explain the truths. Time will change peoples attitudes. Being upset every time these speakers peach against the church will make you crazy. You gotta move on.

[Vance]

Since I'm on your list as one of the plenary speakers, I'll just speak for myself and ask you for evidence to back up this characterization of me.

Your website is clear evidence to "back up this characterization". I would post a link, but, thankfully, it is forbidden.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Vance

[KevinG]

To some extent Mormons also preach against the evalgelic view of Christ. I certainly have been taught lessons on what the christian view of the Godhead and what the Mormon view of the Trinity.

CFR please. I'd like to see how those LDS lessons about protestantism contrast with the preaching of IRR, Saints Alive, Utah Lighthouse Ministry and other materials of their type.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

You were under no obligation to answer my question to selek, but having made the assertion while excusing yourself from providing any evidence, I'm going to call you on it. Selek claimed that I am an "avowed, practicing detractor and hater of the Mormon faith" and that I have participated in "seminars, publicity stunts, and shock-and-dispmay campaigns aimed at stirring up hatred and contention between the LDS and their neightbors." If true, you should be able to document such activity without reference to IRR's website.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Vance,

You were under no obligation to answer my question to selek, but having made the assertion while excusing yourself from providing any evidence, I'm going to call you on it. Selek claimed that I am an "avowed, practicing detractor and hater of the Mormon faith" and that I have participated in "seminars, publicity stunts, and shock-and-dispmay campaigns aimed at stirring up hatred and contention between the LDS and their neightbors." If true, you should be able to document such activity without reference to IRR's website.

The only person I am aware, that has done that on the list that Salek has provided, is Aaron (the Shaff) Shafovaloff.

I would be interested in seeing any evidence, for this, for Mr Bowman.

This would be a CFR.

Note :This is a CFR for Vance or Salek.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[KevinG]

Be sure to include Rob's activities with CRI and Dr. Walter Martin in your expose...

http://www.equip.org...earch-institute

Mr. Bowman's mischaracterization of LDS doctrines and prophets demonstrated on this site alone is enough to characterize him as anti-mormon. He is certainly no lover of Mormons who retain their faith.

While he is certainly well spoken and polite to a fault (except when he sneaks in phrses like "supposed prophet") he still denies others the courtesy of defining and explaining their own beliefs. Politeness without respect is a mere pretty veneer over ugly hatred.

As has been said before you will find no equivelent to Rob's counter-cult ministry in LDS circles. We may fail to be polite when someone attacks our sacred beliefs but we don't systematically disrespect and attack others beliefs.

Edited October 14, 2011 by DaddyG

[mfbukowski]

You website is clear evidence to "back up this characterization". I would post a link, but, thankfully, it is forbidden.

Agreed. No further reference is needed. It's as clear as day.

[mfbukowski]

Be sure to include Rob's activities with CRI and Dr. Walter Martin in your expose...

http://www.equip.org...earch-institute

Mr. Bowman's mischaracterization of LDS doctrines and prophets demonstrated on this site alone is enough to characterize him as anti-mormon. He is certainly no lover of Mormons who retain their faith.

While he is certainly well spoken and polite to a fault (except when he sneaks in phrses like "supposed prophet") he still denies others the courtesy of defining and explaining their own beliefs. Politeness without respect is a mere pretty veneer over ugly hatred.

As has been said before you will find no equivelent to Rob's counter-cult ministry in LDS circles. We may fail to be polite when someone attacks our sacred beliefs but we don't systematically disrespect and attack others beliefs.

An extremely interesting quote.

Looks like there is quite a bit of in-fighting among these guys, all interested in making some kind of power grab. There must be serious bucks involved.

So much for "one faith, one baptism". That is not the way true disciples of Christ would handle their church.

The very message of an anti-Mormon seminar in SLC is evidence of trying to divide "neighbor against neighbor", and in this case it sounds like the antis themselves just revel in this sort of division and power hunger.

Edited October 14, 2011 by mfbukowski

[Vance]

Vance,

You were under no obligation to answer my question to selek, but having made the assertion while excusing yourself from providing any evidence, I'm going to call you on it. Selek claimed that I am an "avowed, practicing detractor and hater of the Mormon faith" and that I have participated in "seminars, publicity stunts, and shock-and-dispmay campaigns aimed at stirring up hatred and contention between the LDS and their neightbors." If true, you should be able to document such activity without reference to IRR's website.

As I said, your web site shows it all. No further evidence is needed.

Can we assume that you are capable of finding your own website?

[Vance]

The only person I am aware, that has done that on the list that Salek has provided, is Aaron (the Shaff) Shafovaloff.

I would be interested in seeing any evidence, for this, for Mr Bowman.

This would be a CFR.

Note :This is a CFR for Vance or Salek.

Mola,

Your naivity and guilelessness are indeed lovable.