Oh No! We'S A Cult!

[Mudcat]

I do plan on getting back to the responses tomorrow.

In the mean time, I do hope you are willing to watch Jeffress actual introduction of Perry.

Make sure to look for words like "Mormon", "Cult" or "Romney" in it and count how many times they appear.

[MatthewG]

I'll save others the time of wasting 3 minutes of their lives. The answer is none, and how this is relevant to the the article this thread is based on? It's not relevant in the slightest. Whatever this video is, it was a different event/occasion.

[Mudcat]

I'll save others the time of wasting 3 minutes of their lives. The answer is none, and how this is relevant to the the article this thread is based on? It's not relevant in the slightest. Whatever this video is, it was a different event/occasion.

Your article was about the Value Voter's Summit. This video is from Jeffress introduction of Perry at the Value Voters Summit, it is actually the same occasion. You are not correct on this point.

Also, I think you are completely wrong in your assumption of irrelevance for the same reason.

edit add.. though I do appreciate you spending the 3 minutes to watch the video and determine that his speech does not reinforce the point of the article

Edited October 8, 2011 by Mudcat

[Zakuska]

Quiet frankly I'd just leave religion out of politics all together. I could careless if Perry is JW, evangelical, Mormon, Catholic or a Jew. It's not important. It's the public bashing and discrediting someone simply because of their religion that I have a problem with. Plus isn't this whole thing so 2 centuries ago? My mind is blown on a daily basis on the ignorance of people. They have such MASSIVE information available to them 24/7 and yet they cling to garbage from the 19th century. "Watch for that guy he's a MORMON, he's going to steal your wife and make her his slave!" or "Watch out for that guy, he's MORMON he's in a devil worshiping cult!!"

It's just utter nonsense.

"Only two things are infinite, The universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -- Albert Einstien

Edited October 8, 2011 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

Your article was about the Value Voter's Summit. This video is from Jeffress introduction of Perry at the Value Voters Summit, it is actually the same occasion. You are not correct on this point.

Also, I think you are completely wrong in your assumption of irrelevance for the same reason.

edit add.. though I do appreciate you spending the 3 minutes to watch the video and determine that his speech does not reinforce the point of the article

On the contrary Mudcat. The video is of the "Introduction". The Jeffress' comments on Mormoism as a cult came after Rick Perry's speach. So it's not the same event.

From the article:

"We understand Mormonism is not Christianity and thus the difference between somebody who's moral and good like Mitt Romney and a true born-again follower of Christ," Jeffress said after Perry's speech, adding that Perry had welcomed his endorsement. "I really think the decision for conservative evangelical Christians right now is going to be, do we prefer somebody who is truly a believer in Jesus Christ, or somebody who is a good moral person but he's a part of a cult."

So MatthewG is exactly correct.

Intresting too is the Governors PR department was quick to disavow Jeffress claim.

From the article:

Jeffress' views, however, do not reflect Perry's, his campaign spokesman told The Ticket.

"The governor does not believe Mormonism is a cult," Perry Communication Director Mark Miner said in an email.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Zakuska

[Calm]

If "cult" only meant "false religion"' in most people's understanding or even had the one additional connotation of "bizarre beliefs", this would be a nonissue in my view; it is the nonreligious aspects such as 'brainwashing' and other extreme or antisocial behaviors that are usually brought to mind by use of the term, associating LDS with much more extreme groups that is troubling to me.

See wiki's entry on cult for a good example of how cult is currently used in popular circles.

Because of this baggage that has attached itself to the term "cult" I see its usage much more problematic than "apostate" though I understand the derogatory flavour of that word as well. It is possible that common occurrence and broad usage of the idea of the Great Apostasy has changed the perception of the word among LDS in comparison to the rest of the world, but since LDS current usage is limited to those who attack their former faiths and does not include those who only convert to another faith, it seems pretty consistent in 'flavour' to me. I am not aware of any connotations of "apostate" that go beyond either rejecting a faith (the worse connotation might be the idea that an apostate is a traitor...but I am not sure if this is a prevalent concept or one just associated with the limited usage of "apostate" as defined as one that requires active work against the former faith which would limit the term's application to a small, but select group of individuals) or belonging to a false faith (though this is an inaccurate definition and not one in current usage of most LDS in my experience), if someone knows of any similar to the connotations of brainwashing associated with "cult" I would be interested to hear them.

Edited October 8, 2011 by calmoriah

[Mudcat]

On the contrary Mudcat. The video is of the "Introduction". The Jeffress' comments on Mormoism as a cult came after Rick Perry's speach. So it's not the same event.

I agree that these comments did not occur in the introduction of Perry. But the article is misleading to that fact, if you'll take the time to read the first couple of paragraphs....

Dr. Robert Jeffress, the influential pastor of a Dallas-based megachurch, offered his formal endorsement of Texas Gov. Rick Perry Friday at the Values Voter Summit in Washington, D.C. Friday, shortly before he explained why Perry's opponent atop the GOP field, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, is a cultist.

Jeffress introduced Perry before he addressed the annual gathering for social conservatives, making a special point to emphasize Perry's Christian faith--as opposed to Romney's, who a Mormon, which Jeffress said was a "cult."

Bold mine. This statement is misleading, incorrect actually. Jeffress made no mention of Romney, "Mormon" or "cult" during his introduction of Perry. Even though the article seems to say this is what happened during the introduction.

Intresting too is the Governors PR department was quick to disavow Jeffress claim.

I don't make any claim to know what Perry's motivations were, but I am glad he drew the distinction between Jeffress view and his own.

[thesometimesaint]

The SBC better be carefull their slip is showing.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/10/07/339299/video-prominent-perry-endorser-robert-jeffress-says-voting-for-romney-would-give-credibility-to-a-cult/

cult

 .

1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2.

an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

3.

the object of such devotion.

4.

a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

5.

Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

Edited October 8, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Lost in Ohio]

The SBC better be carefull their slip is showing.

http://thinkprogress...lity-to-a-cult/

cult

 .

1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2.

an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

3.

the object of such devotion.

4.

a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

5.

Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

Ahhhh, but you forget they get to determine their own definition which is derived more from the supermarket tabloids than any sense of accuracy. If your motive is to conjur visions of mindless, brainwashed damned souls trapped in a web of deceit by the very prince of darkness and to inspire fear based on sensationalism, then why let a little thing like accuracy get in the way? After all the anti-mormon cottage industry wouldn't be very profitable without appealing to the baser emotions and there's nothing like a few good buzz words like "cult" to get the knee-jerk emotional response desired.

[MatthewG]

Your article was about the Value Voter's Summit. This video is from Jeffress introduction of Perry at the Value Voters Summit, it is actually the same occasion. You are not correct on this point.

Also, I think you are completely wrong in your assumption of irrelevance for the same reason.

edit add.. though I do appreciate you spending the 3 minutes to watch the video and determine that his speech does not reinforce the point of the article

Then his comments were made before or after this video in question OR the article is pulling quotes out of thin air and making stuff up.

Edited October 8, 2011 by MatthewG

[MatthewG]

I'd also like to point out this guy is doubly guilty. He did it back 2008: http://www.religionnewsblog.com/22554/mormon-church-cult-of-christianity

[KevinG]

The article in question does not say the comments were made during the introduction to Perry. The comments were made to a CNN reporter by the Pastor who introduced Perry. The Pastor was affirming the SBC stance that Mormons were a cult, then he expounded on what that meant to him as a voter.

Pastor to GOP: Don't vote for Romney because he's Mormon

Robert Jeffress, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Dallas, who's endorsed Texas Gov. Rick Perry and introduced him at the Values Voter Summit in Washington, told CNN Political Correspondent Jim Acosta that the Southern Baptist Convention "has officially labeled Mormonism as a cult"

CNN

5:07 p.m. CDT, October 7, 2011

A pastor of a mega church in Dallas said Friday that Republicans shouldn't vote for White House hopeful Mitt Romney because he's a Mormon and described the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a "cult."

"I think Mitt Romney's a good, moral man, but those of us who are born again followers of Christ should prefer a competent Christian," said Robert Jeffress, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Dallas, which has a congregation of about 10,000.

Jeffress, who's endorsed Texas Gov. Rick Perry and introduced him at the Values Voter Summit in Washington, told CNN Political Correspondent Jim Acosta that the Southern Baptist Convention "has officially labeled Mormonism as a cult"

"That's why I'm enthusiastic about Perry," Jeffress said, later adding: "I again believe that as Christian, we have the duty to select Christians as our leaders…Between a Rick Perry and a Mitt Romney, I believe evangelicals need to go with Rick Perry."

This isn't the first time the Dallas pastor has hit Romney over his religion. During the 2008 campaign, he made similar comments.

But if it came down to a contest between Romney and President Barack Obama, Jeffress said he'd still vote for Romney, although holding his nose at the same time.

"I would rather have a non-Christian who at least supports biblical principles than a professing Christian like Barack Obama who embraces unbiblical positions," he said.

When asked for a comment, Perry's team said it was the event organizers not the campaign–who asked Jeffress to introduce the candidate.

"The governor does not believe Mormonism is a cult," added Mark Miner, Perry's national press secretary.

A spokesman for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who requested not to be identified by name, declined to comment on a statement "made at a political event."

"But those who want to understand the centrality of Christ to our faith can learn more about us and what we believe by going to mormon.org," the spokesman said in a statement.

The Romney campaign said it will not have any comment to the remarks by Jeffress.

[Storm Rider]

Coming from a person who holds to a faith that would declare both Perry and Jeffress are apostates at best, I don't see much of a complaint to be lodged.

I don't understand why you feel an Evangelical Pastor would endorse a non-Evangelical candidate, if there was a good EV candidate in the hole.

Mud, how often do you hear LDS announce that you are an apostate; are that you are not Christian? Do you vote strictly by an individual's religious affiliation? And we wonder why our nation is in the state it is in! We can be much better voters and people....much less Christian.

[LeSellers]

I don't understand why you feel an Evangelical Pastor would endorse a non-Evangelical candidate, if there was a good EV candidate in the hole.

As many of us have made clear in this forum, the candidate's positions on political issues are more critical (at least to us) than his religion, per se.

If we take, say, Perry, ostensibly a "good EV candidate in the hole", why would an evangelical voter choose him over a Saint if the following were true about each candidate:

• Parental Rights
  
  • Saint◄► Supports parents' right to raise their children with little or no governmental interference.
    
  • Perry◄► Mandates little girls be vaccinated with the potentially dangerous Gardasil®
    
  • EV Voter prefers parental rights be respected
    

  [*]Illegal immigrants

  • Saint ◄► Supports deportation and rejects "in-state" tuition for illegal immigrants to state colleges
    
  • Perry◄► Pushes for in-state tuition
    
  • EV Voter rejects amnesty for illegal aliens
    

  [*]Economics

  • Saint◄► Keynesian economics is a proven failure over nearly a century of trials
    
  • Perry◄► Government is a source of "job creation", and wants more government involvement in economics
    
  • EV Voter wants smaller, less intrusive government
    

In a reverse situation, a Saint would choose the candidate who better reflects his values and preferences. Why should an evangelical voter select the candidate who does not represent his values as well, but who shares his religious preference?

Why, in this instance, would a pastor reject outright, based solely on his religion, a man who might be a better fit? (I'm not claiming Romney meets that criterion—I do not believe he does—but, based on the wording of the statement, we can conclude that a "perfect" candidate who is LDS would be condemned on the same grounds.)

People can make any choice they desire. That's the nature of the secret ballot and republics. But it is completely unreasonable for one characteristic (his religion in this case, but his sex or his race might fill the same role) of a candidate to override the totality of the political positions any candidate must, of necessity espouse.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

I am unaware of any quotes from our current leadership instructing our members to not vote for a specific candidate because they're (you're) apostates.

I am unaware of any quotes from your current leadership to vote for anyone period.

That's an significant distinction, isn't it?

By design, we Saints do not have a religious figure telling us how to vote for any political office, while a great many evangelicals at least seem to depend on someone else to make that decision for them.

Even if it were not the case that doing what their pastor says in this matter is the determining factor in their voting, the mere fact of the pastor's (or pastors') arrogance in making such a statement in the first place speaks volumes about how he must view his flock (an' it ain't purty).

Lehi

[Jesterss]

Whatever this evangelical pastor said, it sheds no light on the account of politics.. with that said, as a non-LDS myself, I would and will personally vote for Romney over Perry... It has nothing to do with anyone's religion, that pastor just had a strong conviction to speak out when the spotlight was on him.. That's his issue..

[Sevenbak]

I'll save others the time of wasting 3 minutes of their lives. The answer is none, and how this is relevant to the the article this thread is based on? It's not relevant in the slightest. Whatever this video is, it was a different event/occasion.

The event is the same. RIght after this introduction to Perry, the pastor met with reporters and that's where the "mormonism is cult" language came from. Perry's camp had to publicly distance itself and release a statement that why don't agree with the Pastor that Mormonism is a cult.

[thesometimesaint]

Lehi:

Try to tell me this person wasn't a Saint.

http://www.answers.com/topic/marriner-stoddard-eccles

[Calm]

This statement is misleading, incorrect actually..

I would agree that the article is poorly written and may have been done so to make the pastor look worse than he was. However, he must have known that even if made in a 'private' interview, his words would be on public display.

Apparently he is now saying he was talking in a theological, not sociological sense....whatever that means. The connotations of the term "cult" in the view of the SBC seem clear from the listings of many of the anti cult contigent that align themselves with it. Since he said the same thing in the past and was likely aware of the reaction, I expect he knew exactly what he was doing, but may have been surprised by the lack of support generally speaking.

[TAO]

Honestly guys... do we really need a thread over this?

There are going to be people who call our religion a cult, and we know they are wrong already.

This isn't all too surprising, really... there are many pastors like this... just because this one endorsed Perry doesn't make it any more important.

Furthermore... I heard Perry later distance himself from this guy and his comments. So really... does this have to turn into a debate =P.

Let's just move on... tis not that important to worry about, really =).

EDIT: And stop pointing fingers Mudcat please... we know he doesn't view things this way... nor do all SBC pastors view things the same way, so we should let it rest, that we should.

Edited October 8, 2011 by TAO

[Sevenbak]

Update: Bill Bennett, conservative author and commentator calls out the good Pastor in the same speaking forum, to applause.

"Do not give voice to bigotry. Do not give voice to bigotry. I would say to Pastor Jeffress: You stepped on and obscured the words of Perry and Santorum and Cain and Bachmann and everyone else who has spoken here. You did Rick Perry no good, sir, in what you had to say."

[ERMD]

I have bantered with Evangelicals on other boards who say they cannot vote for a Mormon not due to religious belief per se, but due to the fact that someone must be mentally deficient to believe the things the Church teaches (as they claim to understand the teachings).

I did my undergrad at Baylor, which is the largest Baptist university in the world and is supported by the SBC. The opinions of Mr. Jeffers and his predecessors were most apparent there among a large segment of the student population.

[Calm]

Honestly guys... do we really need a thread over this?

There are going to be people who call our religion a cult, and we know they are wrong already......

Let's just move on... tis not that important to worry about, really =).

EDIT: And stop pointing fingers Mudcat please... we know he doesn't view things this way... nor do all SBC pastors view things the same way, so we should let it rest, that we should.

I agree that Mudcat was only pushing for accuracy in reporting, the same as LDS who are challenging the cult label.

It was quite shocking to many LDS when Romney first ran at how strongly the feelings were against LDS among some groups. While we view ourselves as a "peculiar people" we see this primarily in a religious way and most LDS don't see themselves as outsiders to their communities so it is disorienting to find out there are others who in essence do.

Having gone through this in the previous election (individuals using scare tactics to lower the appeal of LDS candidates), it is interesting to observe the process this time around to see if there have been any changes as well as to explore the reasons for those changes when I see them.

[Sevenbak]

Here's the long version. It's actually really good!

[Gervin]

I have bantered with Evangelicals on other boards who say they cannot vote for a Mormon not due to religious belief per se, but due to the fact that someone must be mentally deficient to believe the things the Church teaches (as they claim to understand the teachings).

I did my undergrad at Baylor, which is the largest Baptist university in the world and is supported by the SBC. The opinions of Mr. Jeffers and his predecessors were most apparent there among a large segment of the student population.

Any Southern Baptist Convention connection is only indirect through the Cooperative Program giving - the SBC has no direct connection with Baylor in the way of funding or electing trustees. This falls to the Baptist General Convention of Texas. (i are an aggie!)

Edited October 8, 2011 by Gervin