Oh No! We'S A Cult!

[Mike Reed]

Yes I see that in his writing because he says that some people are baptized not having faith (ie the word) and so their baptism is a bath-keepers baptism. But in his eyes it takes both Water and Spirit at the Baptism.

Yep.

[cdowis]

Here is a good article on the "Great Apostasy" .

http://en.wikipedia..../Great_Apostasy

We search in vain in this article where LDS believe that every individual outside the church is an "apostate".

Edited October 9, 2011 by cdowis

[MatthewG]

Just to be clear, I have no problem with the idea of voting for someone you see as having similar beliefs, whether it's political or religious or cultural or something else. If there was no difference between candidates in all other ways, why not choose someone who is the same religion as you are. My issue is that instead of promoting the man who is like him, he is attacking someone who is not.

This is one of the major problems I have with what this guy did. He claims to be a "Christian" a representative of Christ and instead he tears down and attacks.

[HeatherAnn]

Mormons don't go around calling people "Apostates", especially people that have never even been Mormon. IF we ever use the term, it's in reference to actual apostates, those who leave the Faith, not other Christians.

We call other Christians "Christians"..... Get your facts strait!

Facts?

Yes, you're right, Mormons ONLY go around calling anyone who doesn't accept the entire Mormon belief package - "APOSTATE." (How healthy can this belief package be, considering UT is #1 in the nation for use of anti-depressants?)

Many Mormons prevent their children & especially teenagers from associating with or dating anyone who is not Mormon.

In fact, Mormons have a history of only doing business with each-other.

Mormons are ostracized if they question any church doctrine publically - even ex-communicated.

Mormons are taught at a young age, "To follow the prophet... or else" - & the true mark of a cult... is to follow it's leader unquestioning... Mormons believe God would not allow their prophet to ever lead them astray.

Mormons are only allowed to "receive saving ordinances of the temple" if they pay up 10% of their income (which is spent in pursuits not mentioned in scriptures about tithing), & must report regularly to promise this. If they do not, they are not allowed to witness family's or friends' weddings inside of the temple.

How in the world, could Mormons be considered a cult?

Edited October 9, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[MatthewG]

Facts?

1. Yes, you're right, Mormons ONLY go around calling anyone who doesn't accept the entire Mormon belief package - "APOSTATE." (How healthy can this belief package be, considering UT is #1 in the nation for use of anti-depressants?)

2. Many Mormons prevent their children & especially teenagers from associating with or dating anyone who is not Mormon.

3. In fact, Mormons have a history of only doing business with each-other.

4. Mormons are ostracized if they question any church doctrine publically - even ex-communicated.

5. Mormons are taught at a young age, "To follow the prophet... or else" - & the true mark of a cult... is to follow it's leader unquestioning... Mormons believe God would not allow their prophet to ever lead them astray.

6. Mormons are only allowed to "receive saving ordinances of the temple" if they pay up 10% of their income (which is spent in pursuits not mentioned in scriptures about tithing), & must report regularly to promise this. If they do not, they are not allowed to witness family's or friends' weddings inside of the temple.

How in the world, could Mormons be considered a cult?

Okay lets rip the troll baby apart:

1. That is false and has been discussed at length in this thread. Apostates are people who choose to openly reject the teachings of Jesus Christ and his Church. They are living in Apostasy. Your mention of Anti-depressants has nothing do with this thread discussion and probably more related to social pressures.

2. That is totally false. While in some very conservative closeminded circles in Utah this may be true, it is certainly false outside of "the bubble".

3. This is hilariously false and not related to the thread.

4. The Church has channels for doctrine questions. If you're using a public platform to question doctrine and cause a public scene, then you're more than on your way out of the Church anyway. Nobody is excommunicated for having difficultly accepting a doctrine.

5. This is true in any organize religion. Just substitute Bible in your sentence.

6. This is only a fraction true. Tithing is only 1 of a dozen qualifications to enter the temple.

Begone troll.

[LeSellers]

Would you vote for an a Satanist who is better qualified than all other candidates? I would wager you would not, you would use something as unreasonable as "religion" to not vote for the best candidate.

You'd lose your bet.

I have voted for agnostics and atheists. I don't recall anyone's announcing himself a Satanist, but, if someone did, and if he were the best candidate on the issues (primarily freedom, personal responsibility, and individual rights), I'd have no problem voting for him.

As far as I can tell, however, most Satanists would not take those stands, so I don't foresee any serious conflicts on the horizon.

Also, "Saints" do not have someone telling them what they must believe on any particular issue, your post concerning "Saint" "Perry" and "Ev" is offensive and I say counter to the Gospel and the position of the Church on neutrality.

I believe I have already said that we Saints do not have, need, or want any of the Brethren telling us how to vote on the candidates. I have said that the fact that Evangelical pastors arrogate this power unto themselves says a great deal about those pastors' views of their congregants.

Finally, please note it was wholly hypothetical. Except for Perry's stands (which I believe I correctly stated), I chose positions for the "EV Voter" and the "Saint" (candidate) so they matched. No LDS presidential candidate has taken all the positions I portrayed. Further, please note that the few issues I did list were so few that anyone who made a choice based solely on them would be woefully ignorant of the complexities of USmerican presidential power and politics.

Anyone who is so thin-skinned as to take offense at a hypothetical illustration has given me enormous power over his mind. While I might be flattered at such a gift, it appalls me that these kinds of people can vote in elections that affect me and my family.

I'd just alert you to the fact that you seem to have a need to attack others without understanding their positions. It gets a bit tiresome to have to correct you every time you post a response to one of my messages, and I'd guess others feel the same. Sit back, breathe deeply, have a cup of cocoa, and think about the thing that caused you to get hyper before writing anything. It goes a long way towards genteel conversation.

Lehi

[Calm]

Facts?

......

How in the world, could Mormons be considered a cult?

It is so not helpful to perpetuate the stereotypes.

What is so strange is to claim that LDS follow their leaders unquestioningly as a cultlike behaviour and then give a list of other cultlike behaviours that are contrary to the teachings of the Church....doesn't make much sense.

[LeSellers]

I find this to be very offensive. Please substitute your name for saint because those are YOUR political stances not the Church's or all LDS people for that matter. Even saying that all EV voters have those stands is not fair. Put a name to EV voter not a generic. No wonder the world thinks we all march lockstep when people like this poster do this so regularly. Its just not right or correct either.

The positions I hypothesized for the "Saint" are not necessarily any I hold, personally. There were, in fact a couple of them that go against my own political beliefs. It appears your interpretation of my message was in error.

Please note it was wholly hypothetical. Except for Perry's stands (which I believe I correctly stated), I chose positions for the "EV Voter" and the "Saint" (candidate) so they matched. No LDS presidential candidate has taken all the positions I portrayed. Further, please note that the few issues I did list were so few that anyone who made a choice based solely on them would be woefully ignorant of the complexities of USmerican presidential power and politics.

Anyone who is so thin-skinned as to take offense at a hypothetical illustration has given me enormous power over his mind. While I might be flattered at such a gift, it appalls me that these kinds of people can vote in elections that affect me and my family.

When I start get offended, I recall the words of Brigham Young: "He who takes offense when none is intended is a fool. He who takes offense when an offense is intended is a bigger fool." This usually cures me of the affliction.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

I read Lehi's comment not to mean that those were the commonly held Saints' position or the commonly held EV position, but rather each was an individual Saint or EV that held those positions, as in if there was a Saint who held these positions and the EV held similar positions, it would make more sense for that EV to vote for that Saint....though it seems strange that he would need to go into such detail. Perhaps he created a likely scenario and wasn't thinking in absolute terms....

If I am wrong and it was meant to represent standard positions, I would agree with your criticism.

Lehi can clarify what he meant.

No need to (although I did before seeing your excellent analysis).

Lehi

[Calm]

Facts?

Yes, let's get a few up here......

How healthy can this belief package be, considering UT is #1 in the nation for use of anti-depressants?

Life expectancy was 77.3 for LDS males, 70.0 for non-LDS males, 82.2 for LDS females, and 76.4 for non-LDS females......Higher life expectancy experienced among LDS not explained by tobacco-related deaths may be due to factors associated with religious activity in general, such as better physical health, better social support, and healthier lifestyle behaviors.

http://www.demograph...olumes/vol10/3/,

Analysis of the data indicates that Latter-day Saints who live their lives consistent with their religious beliefs experience greater general well-being and marital and family stability, and less delinquency, depression, anxiety, and substance abuse than those who do not. This review of research also concludes that there is very little support for the assertion made by some that religious belief, practice, or affiliation is antithetical to mental health

Also for problems with claiming antidepressants directly related to unhappiness or stress.....

http://en.fairmormon...antidepressants

Suicide rates in LDS patients went down as their religious involvement went up.^[9] Inactive LDS males experience a suicide rate roughly four times that of active LDS males. Non-LDS males experience a suicide rate roughly six times that of active LDS males.

http://en.fairmormon...e_among_Mormons

Apparently pretty healthy, contrary to some individual's unfounded and unfactual allegations....

Many Mormons prevent their children & especially teenagers from associating with......anyone who is not Mormon.

Any LDS who do this, do it contrary to LDS teachings....

A holier-than-thou attitude is not becoming to us. I am in receipt of a letter from a man in our community who is not a member of the Church. In it he says that his little daughter has been ostracized by her schoolmates who are Latter-day Saints. He sets forth another instance of a child who, it is alleged, had a religious medal ripped from his neck by an LDS child. I hope this is not true. If it is, I apologize to those who have been offended.

Let us rise above all such conduct and teach our children to do likewise. Let us be true disciples of the Christ, observing the Golden Rule, doing unto others as we would have them do unto us. Let us strengthen our own faith and that of our children while being gracious to those who are not of our faith. Love and respect will overcome every element of animosity. Our kindness may be the most persuasive argument for that which we believe.

http://lds.org/gener...query=ostracize

A few years ago I spoke by assignment to a chamber of commerce group in Salt Lake City. During a question-answer period, I listened to a fine woman who was not of our faith. She spoke movingly of the pain her children had experienced when they were shunned by LDS youth in school and social activities. More recently, a Utah convert to the Church has written of his concern at the way some non-LDS adults with good basic values come to Utah with high expectations for a life among good neighbors and then, as he wrote, “find themselves excluded at best and ostracized at worst.”

Of course, there will be differences in the personal standards and social activities of faithful Latter-day Saints and members of other groups. But these differences are no excuse for ostracism, arrogance, or unkindness by LDS people. As my convert friend wrote, “I personally believe that Satan is as active among the Saints in turning them away from their neighbors as he is in turning disaffected persons against the Church.”

As we covenant that we will always remember our Savior, we must not forget Jehovah’s command to Israel:

“But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself” (Lev. 19:34; see Ex. 22:21; Deut. 10:19).

We should always remember how Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves. He illustrated that great teaching with the example of the Good Samaritan, who crossed the social barriers of his day to perform acts of kindness and mercy. Then the Savior said, “Go, and do thou likewise” (Luke 10:37).

A decade ago President Spencer W. Kimball said, “Let us fellowship the students from all nations as they come to our land, so that we, above all other people, treat them as brothers and sisters in true friendship, whether or not they are interested in the gospel” (Regional Representatives’ seminar, 29 Sept. 1978).

That prophetic instruction should guide our relationships with all of our neighbors.

http://lds.org/general-conference/1988/04/always-remember-him?lang=eng&query=ostracize

In fact, Mormons have a history of only doing business with each-other.

CFR, this is nonsense and likely impossible from what I've seen even in Utah and would be completely contrary to LDS teachings if an individual chose to try and do so. That official direction to purchase goods only from LDS owned businesses in Utah might have taken place once upon a time due to Brigham Young's efforts to keep money among the Saints in Utah in order to meet their extreme financial needs at the time is hardly cultlike behaviour, but a good business practice for the finanicially strapped LDS at the time. Since it was not applicable to Saints outside of the LDS territory, it cannot be used to claim cultlike behaviour even for that time period.

And IIRC, the success of BY's instructions was less than stellar....if so, this hardly demonstrates what you claim it does....again.

Mormons are ostracized if they question any church doctrine publically - even ex-communicated.

Any doctrine? Just for "questioning" publicly? Please show how those who challenge the idea of a global flood (cinepro's favourite "official" church doctrine) publicly have been excommunicated. And CFR on "ostracized" which would directly contradict leaders' instructions about how to treat those who are in doubt or even publicly attack the Gospel.

Mormons are taught at a young age, "To follow the prophet... or else" - & the true mark of a cult... is to follow it's leader unquestioning... Mormons believe God would not allow their prophet to ever lead them astray.

CFR for the "or else". And how is having as a fundamental teaching that every member needs to receive a personal witness of the Spirit to confirm what is taught by the prophet and other leaders "unquestioning"? CFR that "lead astray" is meant on a personal level and implies that there is no chance of error so one should not ever question anything a leader says.....

Mormons are only allowed to "receive saving ordinances of the temple" if they pay up 10% of their income (which is spent in pursuits not mentioned in scriptures about tithing), & must report regularly to promise this. If they do not, they are not allowed to witness family's or friends' weddings inside of the temple.

And yet that tithing may not only amount to zero dollars, but the member may receive much more from the Church than he gives monetarily and this will not keep him from the temple. Tithing was used in the scriptures to support the work of the Church, how is this different from what is done today. It seems rather naive to expect that all the expenses would be identical between two cultures 2000 year apart in development.

And bishops do no more than ask if someone is a full tithe payer, they do not delve into details and they leave it up to the individual to determine how to evaluate this....

How in the world, could Mormons be considered a cult?

For "cult" in the way you are defining it.....

Usually only by those uneducated in how the Church actually functions or intent on misrepresenting the reality of the Faith and its people. Got to wonder what category you fall into....

Edited October 9, 2011 by calmoriah

[HeatherAnn]

Okay lets rip the troll baby apart:

1. That is false and has been discussed at length in this thread. Apostates are people who choose to openly reject the teachings of Jesus Christ and his Church. They are living in Apostasy. Your mention of Anti-depressants has nothing do with this thread discussion and probably more related to social pressures.

2. That is totally false. While in some very conservative closeminded circles in Utah this may be true, it is certainly false outside of "the bubble".

3. This is hilariously false and not related to the thread.

4. The Church has channels for doctrine questions. If you're using a public platform to question doctrine and cause a public scene, then you're more than on your way out of the Church anyway. Nobody is excommunicated for having difficultly accepting a doctrine.

5. This is true in any organize religion. Just substitute Bible in your sentence.

6. This is only a fraction true. Tithing is only 1 of a dozen qualifications to enter the temple.

Begone troll.

So, you still like to call names? How old are you?

It seems, to you, a "Troll" or "Apostate" is anybody who doesn't post what's agreeable to you, even if it is true.

Here are some articles that might help you realize the truth of what I mentioned...

http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon64.html

http://realdoctorstu.com/2011/03/29/new-study-asks-can-religion-help-you-fight-serious-illness/

It is not just "close - minded circles in UT" that teach only to date members, unless you consider General Authorities to be that way...

"It is natural to date. Every right-thinking young person has a native desire to become acquainted with the opposite sex, looking eventually to pairing off in honorable marriage" (Petersen, p. 37). ("Honorable meaning temple-marriage only for members). "Dating has become the accepted form of social recreation for the purpose of getting acquainted before young people can safely have a serious interest in each other. Because the selection of a mate in life is so extremely important, we should intelligently seek the experiences which will help us to make that great decision" (Howard W. Hunter, Youth of the Noble Birthright, 1960, pp. 101-102). Again, the only decisions considered "great" is one who can marry us in an LDS temple.

"Fear of being overwhelmed politically, socially, culturally, economically by Mormon immigration was what fueled anti-Mormonism wherever the Latter-day Saints settled during Joseph Smith's lifetime. Religious belief, as non-Mormons understood it, had little to do with anti-Mormonism. On the other hand, by the mid-1830s Mormons embraced a religion that shaped their politics, economics and society. Conflict was inevitable" (p.91).

http://www.mrm.org/violence-in-early-mormonism

In the broadest sense, many groups could be considered cults... fan clubs, university loyalty etc... But those who take such measures to make another's life hell (by ostrasizing them which can affect them socially & even financially/career)... that's when I consider it a harmful cult. If we were not allowed to put down the name of politicians, how do you think that would go over, considering "freedom of speach" rights?

An LDS leader taught, I don't know a worse prison than to not be able to speak one's mind.

Tithing may be only one of many... but without paying up, you don't enter the temple. Like club dues which are not used for "feeding & clothing & fatherless & widows" as instructed in the scriptures.

[MorningStar]

HeatherAnn, I think most religions encourage people to marry within their faith. When you date outside of your faith, you can fall in love with that person and face a very difficult situation. We are encouraged to be friends with anyone not of our faith, but that they should have similar values. I had many good friends who were Catholic, Evangelical, Lutheran, Baptist, etc.

The Bible says it's robbing God not to pay tithes and offerings. To enter the temple, we are expected to live many laws in order to make covenants involving those laws. The way we view tithing is that that money wasn't ours to begin with. It belongs to Heavenly Father who gave us everything we have. I believe it's more about the attitude we have towards our Father in Heaven than anything. It's not a "club due".

[Calm]

There is a huge difference between the claim that LDS teach their children not to associate with nonLDS and the teaching not to date nonLDS. The first is directly contrary to the teachings of the Church as I've demonstrated above. The second is in line with teachings of the Church, but is based on solid sociological understanding considering the high divorce rate among interfaith marriages as well as the additional hardships of staying active in one's faith when one's spouse is not of the same faith. It is hardly "cultlike" to encourage people to act sensibly as well as romantically when considering their lifelong marriage partner, especially in a faith that considers marriage to be an eternal relationship, only second to our relationship with God in our lives.

[Calm]

So, you still like to call names? How old are you?

It seems, to you, a "Troll" or "Apostate" is anybody who doesn't post what's agreeable to you, even if it is true.

And how is implying that the LDS faith is a cult ("true mark of a cult") not name calling? It's okay to call an organization of over 14 million a name, but not an individual by your standards?

Corrected due to having missed the end remark before...

According to wiki:

in Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community

A "troll" message would therefore be an inflammatory, extraneous or off topic message....which yours was to a great degree in all three areas so I think he was accurate in defining your message as a "troll baby".

And I think he demonstrated as I did as well that most of your claims or at least the conclusions you drew from them were not true.

And he did not call you an "apostate" so where did that come from? It was certainly inflammatory and extraneous.....hmmm.....

Edited October 9, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

HeatherAnn, I think most religions encourage people to marry within their faith. When you date outside of your faith, you can fall in love with that person and face a very difficult situation. We are encouraged to be friends with anyone not of our faith, but that they should have similar values..... The way we view tithing is that that money wasn't ours to begin with. It belongs to Heavenly Father who gave us everything we have. I believe it's more about the attitude we have towards our Father in Heaven than anything. It's not a "club due".

Well said.

In as far as we follow Christ in faith and obedience, I am not ashamed and if someone wants to call obedience to the Lord cult behaviour, then that is their burden not mine to carry.

I have never understood why some individuals seem compelled to manufacture complaints against the Church. It's not like there are no valid criticisms out there...why not stick with these, one might actually accomplish something of value.

Edited October 9, 2011 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

HeatherAnn:

The saving Principles are faith, and repentance. The saving Ordinances are baptism, and receipt of the Holy Ghost. NONE of which require a Temple Recommend.

Get your "facts" right, before you start telling me what I believe.

[Calm]

Get your "facts" right, before you start telling me what I believe.

It is always interesting when people are forced to depend on nonLDS sites like mrm.org to tell us what LDS really believe or what we are like. You would think that if something was really so embedded in our doctrine or culture they could find it on LDS.org or at least an LDS friendly site.

Edited October 9, 2011 by calmoriah

[Mudcat]

You should be, you said something that was utterly false.

That's the problem. It's not an "academic fact". It is a complete and utter anti-mormon lie.

Hi ldsfaqs,

For clarity's sake I'll repost my statement you are leveling the accusation of falsehood upon.

Coming from a person who holds to a faith that would declare both Perry and Jeffress are apostates at best, I don't see much of a complaint to be lodged.

You feel I am wrong here and have said something misleading. I don't know that I agree with you yet. But if you wish to explain the error in my logic on my statement, I will be happy to listen.

So here is my thinking on it. The CoJCoLDS does seem to teach that it is the Restored Church. IIRC LDS claims are that, prior to the LDS Restoration, the Church suffered from "The Great Apostasy".

JS when praying about what church to join claimed that God answered him with the following.

and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those ^bprofessors were all ^ccorrupt; that: “they ^ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ^ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the ^fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the ^gpower thereof.

LDS claims seem to be suggesting that all Christian faiths at that point were apostatized in some sense. JS believed God told him that the professors of those faiths were corrupt. I think it would stand to good reason that if I am a member of what you believe is an apostatized faith, then I would be considered an apostate. What am I missing here?

Only anti-mormons use that term.

I disagree with you here.

LDS poster Ahab has used the termhttp://www.mormondia...__p__1209050164

LDS poster Zerinus used the term http://www.mormondia...__p__1209031069

and here http://www.mormondia...__p__1208899114

The term is used back and forth between two LDS poster (Lightbearer and Consiglieri) here http://www.mormondia...__p__1208575963

Going back a bit

BCSpace here http://www.mormondia...__p__1208302206

Even further back

cdowis here http://www.mormondia...__p__1208080258

I was searching for "apostate Christians" in the above links. All usage of the term was by LDS, not anti-Mormons.

Just looking for inferences on "apostate"

Vance levels one at Bowman here http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/55785-new-testament-christian/page__view__findpost__p__1209049917

Robert F Smith has a nice one here http://www.mormondia...__p__1209048726

Lehi here on "apostate religion" http://www.mormondia...__p__1209048099

Ahab talking about apostate Trinitarians here http://www.mormondia...__p__1209047545

Zerinus again http://www.mormondia...__p__1209046307

Not saying obviously it's never been said by a mormon, especially in history. But, it's so non-existent, that it's completely bearing false witness.

Yes... well somehow I remain unconvinced for some peculiar reason.

So you're actually going to sit there and tell us that all the mormons you know go around calling non-LDS "apostates"?

I think you are misunderstanding what I wrote "faith declares" was meant to address a belief that teaches a principle. I do believe LDS doctrine implies that other Christian faiths are apostate on some level, it wouldn't make sense for a Restoration if such weren't part of your beleifs, I wouldn't think.

Though there are certainly some references to LDS using the term, in the above links.

Well, all I know, is I'm a mormon every day, and have lived all over knowing 100,000's of mormons, and I've almost never heard the word used in that manner. And I certainly pay attention. If it is used, it's used completely differently. Not in the anti-mormon perverted way. But as I said, I've seen the word in that manner used by anti-mormons over and over again, in their misrepresenting portrayal of mormons.

The thing I don't quite understand is why you think I am anti-Mormon or something, because I also seem to think that LDS view other Christians as members of apostatized faiths, ergo apostate?

But what he said, while critical, and obviously not representative of "all" SBC's, it's certainly the truth about a great majority, and a SERIOUS problem with Evangelicals.

I agree that there are quite a number of Evangelicals, including SBC members that do think the CoJCoLDS is a cult. I also think this is a view that has changed over the years, as people from the general membership of these groups come to understand a bit more about LDS.

Mudcat

Edited October 9, 2011 by Mudcat

[coolrok7]

From Yahoo a comment concerning the Mitt Romney and his faith as a Mormon and the comments made concerning that faith as a cult:

A different Michael stated:

“. . .only an ‘authentic’ Christian should be president”? This coming from a man who worships idols, believes in human sacrifice (Jesus the man sacrificed himself for your sins—if he was God, how could he die?), and believes in more than one god. Isn’t any one of those beliefs the definition of a pagan?

Idols—Ex. 20:4 “You shall not make yourself a carved image nor any likeness of that which is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the water beneath the earth.”—Jesus on the cross.

Human sacrifice—Ex. 20:13 “You shall not kill.”

More than one god—Ex. 20:3 “You shall not recognize the gods of others in My presence.”—Christianity recognizes that a devil exists; this entity (which is not in the Old Testament) is all-powerful and is immortal, the definition of a god.

So, all you Christians giving this comment a thumbs down are disingenuous.

I commented to him:

Hi Michael, a few points. Its not disengenuous to make corrections to some of what you wrote. Your quotes from the Old Testament are miscontreud in how you applied them.

Its true that ones is not to make an idol of God. In Jesus' case though, He is actually God in the flesh (in Christianity) which in this case is not an idol. God as a spiritual being is not to be made as an image which is one of the Ten Commandments.

It is also true that there is ony one God (in Christianity there is still only one God as Father, Son, Holy Spirit as revealed in the New Testament) in that Jesus quoted from the Hebrew Schema:

Jesus answered, . . .“HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD” (Mark 12:29)"

In the flesh Jesus died on the cross to rescue those of faith (both Jews and Gentiles) from sin and eternal punishment. This is the essence of the Christian faith and prophesied about in the Old Testament.

The Mormonism of Mitt Romney, the focus of the article, has a different teaching concerning Christianity which makes them not Christian based on their redefinitions of Biblical terminology.

Those in the know would not agree with Mitt Romney being a Christian as a Mormon (ones personal faith does become a part of the landscape). Mormonism in fact claims to be the only true church and the rest false. We are only defending against the false charges in the realm of religious belief. In the political realm he has every right to run if he so chooses.

Also in the political realm of which the article is about, it does become a part of the political landscape as it is a part of the individuals view of things. This would not prevent me though of voting for him if he does become the party representative against Obama. He would not be my first choice though.

Edited October 9, 2011 by coolrok7

[thesometimesaint]

1 Corithians 8:5

[Mike Reed]

LDSFAQS,

Chill out man. People misunderstand Mormonism... sure... but your aggressive apologetic reflex is counterproductive to bridging the gap. Spend more time understanding other people's perspectives. Choose your battles, be less contentious and more tactful/nuanced, and I think you will have far better results. You may even come to realize that mudcat is a friend, rather than a foe.

--Mike

[coolrok7]

Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him. As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:1-6)

I quoted a few more verses here for context as the verses aren't saying there is more than one God. The fact is that people do worship them as if they existed as such but in reality do not. The gods many and lords many are the idols not the true deity of God Himself.

Mormons are fond of usually quoting the "gods many"/"lords many" as in this case.

[HeatherAnn]

HeatherAnn, I think most religions encourage people to marry within their faith. When you date outside of your faith, you can fall in love with that person and face a very difficult situation. We are encouraged to be friends with anyone not of our faith, but that they should have similar values. I had many good friends who were Catholic, Evangelical, Lutheran, Baptist, etc.

It makes sense that a potential father & mother should be on the same page about some things, so they can better parent kids.

Yet, as you mentioned, there are many good people in all religious faiths. One being LDS does not make one a more suitable marriage partner or parent than the other... especially considering chauvinistic tendencies among LDS men.

The Bible says it's robbing God not to pay tithes and offerings. To enter the temple, we are expected to live many laws in order to make covenants involving those laws. The way we view tithing is that that money wasn't ours to begin with. It belongs to Heavenly Father who gave us everything we have. I believe it's more about the attitude we have towards our Father in Heaven than anything. It's not a "club due".

I agree that God knows our hearts... & our intent is most important. I also believe we should do all things in wisdom, including finacial expenditures.

If you read more in the scriptures... you'll see how the tithing is to help the poor. Then if you read on LDS donation slips, there are separate donation sections for humanitarian, fast offerings & tithing. You also might notice that church officials are careful to hide how they spend money.

[cdowis]

LDSFAQS,

Chill out man. People misunderstand Mormonism... sure... but your aggressive apologetic reflex is counterproductive to bridging the gap. Spend more time understanding other people's perspectives. Choose your battles, be less contentious and more tactful/nuanced, and I think you will have far better results. You may even come to realize that mudcat is a friend, rather than a foe.

--Mike

Let me give you a couple of suggestions.

1. Click on the "report" button and let the moderator know that you are unhappy with my comments, 2. put me on ignore.

In this forum, the participants should hold my religion in respect and not make misleading statements -- telling me what I "believe". My response to such statements in this forum will be direct, and blunt.

In this case the poster was making a pathetic defense of a hate-monger, with a statement that was inaccurate.

Edited October 9, 2011 by cdowis

[HeatherAnn]

HeatherAnn:

The saving Principles are faith, and repentance. The saving Ordinances are baptism, and receipt of the Holy Ghost. NONE of which require a Temple Recommend.

Get your "facts" right, before you start telling me what I believe.

I apologize for assuming the fact that you believed as most Mormons believed...

"The temple endowment blessings are as essential for each of us as was our baptism. For this reason we are to prepare ourselves that we may be clean to enter the temple of God." -Robert D. Hales, Oct. 2009 Liahona

If you don't believe this, then please explain what do you believe?