Know Ye Not That Ye Are Gods?

[Nathair/|\]

Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate, but that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, handsome, talented, and fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We were born to make manifest the glory of God within us. It is not just in some; it is in everyone. And, as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear, our presence automatically liberates others.—Marianne Williamson (sometimes mis-attributed to Nelson Mandela)

If the above quote is true, then I think it is one of the most fundamental problems in the world today. Actually, as an LDS Druid, I’m a bit of a panentheist. I see the numinous in virtually everything. Today, though, I want to focus on humanity, what we are capable of, what we really are.

In The Druidry Handbook, John Michael Greer uses the legend of King Arthur to represent the potential within each human soul. He writes that our words King and Queen derive from the Anglo-Saxon cyning (he of the kin) and cwen (woman). Hence, the king and queen had the responsibility of embodying the full measure of what it means to be a man or a woman.

Moses famously said, “Would God all the Lord’s people were Prophets.” (Numbers 11:29) Joseph Smith taught that everything he knew would be revealed to the Saints “as fast as [they are] able to bear them.” Finally, Jesus taught that his faithful would do even greater things than he did. So, we learn that our potential is even greater than mere royalty. The reason for this is simple, as St. Paul writes, we are the offspring of the God of the Universe. (Acts 17-28-9)

So what does it mean to be the offspring of God? From two ancient Near East temple hymns, we get the following:

For thou hast made [man] a little lower than the gods (elohim) and hast crowned him with glory and honour. (Psalms 8:5)

Ye are gods and all of you are children of the most high (Psalms 82:6)

Shakespeare’s Prospero provides a beautiful example of a human fulfilling his mortal potential. When the play begins, he is well on his way, but it isn’t until the climax that he finds the final transformation into pure gold.

Speaking of pure gold brings us to the art of alchemy and Hermes Trismegistus’ aphorism, “Know ye not that ye are gods?” The goal of alchemy is the spiritual, psychological and emotional development of the practitioner.

[Nathair/|\]

The above is as much as I have been able to get done on the essay. If anyone can criticize what I have and give me ideas on where to go from here, I'd appreciate it.

[thesometimesaint]

Good thoughts. Also we have Jesus saying "Ye ARE Gods".

[wenglund]

I like some of the principle being espoused. However, it isn't clear to me whether your essay is intended to be descriptive or proscriptive or otherwise. Perhaps it would help if you formulated a thesis statement from which to build your essay--if you haven't already.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Nathair/|\]

What I am trying to do is to get people to look at themselves as glorious, divine beings, and then realize they are surrounded by other such beings. I suspect that such a perspective will go a long way towards transforming how we treat each other and towards our ability to act on faith rather than fear.

[KevinG]

What I am trying to do is to get people to look at themselves as glorious, divine beings, and then realize they are surrounded by other such beings. I suspect that such a perspective will go a long way towards transforming how we treat each other and towards our ability to act on faith rather than fear.

Just as long as they don't start smiting each other.

(Seriously) I do like that quote. It gave a lot of hope to one of my daughters when she was a teenager seeking her identity.

Edited October 7, 2011 by DaddyG

[orion88]

Good thoughts. Also we have Jesus saying "Ye ARE Gods".

Those identified as “gods” in this passage are the people in the Old

Testament who received God’s law. They were human judges whose

wickedness was explained and denounced in the psalm. The "ye" of

verse 2 are the same people ("ye") of verse 6.

Note that they "are" (present tense) gods, they would not "become"

(future tense) "gods."

Both Moses and Satan were referred to as “gods” (Exo. 7:1; 2 Cor. 4:4),

but they were not deities.

Thanks,

Tony

[thesometimesaint]

orion88:

Incorrect See John 17.

Edited October 7, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Good thoughts. Also we have Jesus saying "Ye ARE Gods".

Were it not for D&C 132, I think that scripture would go almost unnoticed in the apologetic world. Instead “because” of Joseph it has launched a million threads.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Those identified as “gods” in this passage are the people in the Old

Testament who received God’s law. They were human judges whose

wickedness was explained and denounced in the psalm. The "ye" of

verse 2 are the same people ("ye") of verse 6.

Note that they "are" (present tense) gods, they would not "become"

(future tense) "gods."

Both Moses and Satan were referred to as “gods” (Exo. 7:1; 2 Cor. 4:4),

but they were not deities.

Thanks,

Tony

Were it not for D&C 132, I think that scripture would go almost unnoticed in the apologetic world. Instead “because” of Joseph it has launched a million threads.

As I just answered another thread.

[Nathair/|\]

Thanks to Orion's post, I realized I should include Abraham 3, where we learn that we (humanity) are the members of the Divine council, and participated in the creation of the world.

[orion88]

orion88:

Incorrect See John 17.

Hello thesometimesaint.

Would you elaborate? How does John 17 (or chapter 10) shows that the

points I made earlier are incorrect in your opinion?

Thanks,

Tony

[volgadon]

Those identified as “gods” in this passage are the people in the Old

Testament who received God’s law. They were human judges whose

wickedness was explained and denounced in the psalm. The "ye" of

verse 2 are the same people ("ye") of verse 6.

Note that they "are" (present tense) gods, they would not "become"

(future tense) "gods."

Ah yes, the good old "judges" nonsense. There are a couple of reasons why gods were translated as judges in Aramaic. The first is that God was considered the ideal of what an earthly judge should be, and the psalm set forth what was expected of earthly judges.

The other reason for translating as judges was in order to distance the Bible from the idea that fallen angels had intercourse with human women. Even then judges was an ambiguousterm, also refering to the heavenly courts.

This being said, the usual Jewish interpretation of Ps. 82 is that God made Adam & Eve/the children of Israel holy and deathless, the two qualities interpreted as being in the image of God. When they sinned they lost this status.

[orion88]

Ah yes, the good old "judges" nonsense. There are a couple of reasons why gods were translated as judges in Aramaic. The first is that God was considered the ideal of what an earthly judge should be, and the psalm set forth what was expected of earthly judges.

Why you consider the biblical passage and the LDS use of this passage

(to infer their teaching) as nonsense?

Also, how were Moses and Satan considered gods (Exo. 7:1; 2 Cor. 4:4) -

in light of a teaching that Heavenly Father is a god ("All good things come

from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become

like him—a god" Gospel Principles, 1997, chapter 1, page 9)?

Tony

[thesometimesaint]

orion88:

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

orion88:

Edited October 9, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[volgadon]

Why you consider the biblical passage and the LDS use of this passage

(to infer their teaching) as nonsense?

I don't. I consider the notion that gods = earthly magistrates is nonsense. It appears only in a certain narrow context and is far from the usual interpretation.

Also, how were Moses and Satan considered gods (Exo. 7:1; 2 Cor. 4:4) -

in light of a teaching that Heavenly Father is a god ("All good things come

from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become

like him—a god" Gospel Principles, 1997, chapter 1, page 9)?

Tony

That there is a good divine being who is more powerful than others doesn't rule out bad divine beings with lesser power. As for Moses, the passage refers to Moses telling Aaron what to say and Aaron acting as his mouthpiece.

[orion88]

I don't. I consider the notion that gods = earthly magistrates is nonsense. It appears only in a certain narrow context and is far from the usual interpretation.

In light of the biblical passages that I quoted, what does the use of "god"

to describe Moses and Satan mean since they were not "deities?"

i.e. what is the notion of "god" for them?

Also, in the 1997 Gospel Principles passage I quoted, why is Heavenly

Father referred to as a 'god?' What is the notion of "god" for HF?

It seems to me that the use of the word "god" or "gods" can have

several meanings. One means an actual deity and the other means some

form of ruler (but a non-deity).

What is your opinion?

Tony

[volgadon]

In light of the biblical passages that I quoted, what does the use of "god"

to describe Moses and Satan mean since they were not "deities?"

i.e. what is the notion of "god" for them?

Satan was considered a deity and I've already explained Moses.

[Damien the Leper]

Hey Maklelan,

If you're reading this thread...can you provide any information on the etymology of Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34?

Or anyone who has studied etymology?

Thanks.

[volgadon]

Hey Maklelan,

If you're reading this thread...can you provide any information on the etymology of Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34?

Or anyone who has studied etymology?

Thanks.

He has several posts on it. http://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/2009/12/02/psalm-82-2/

Bot the Hebrew and the Greek mean a divine being.

[orion88]

Satan was considered a deity and I've already explained Moses.

Who considered Satan a deity? And did this person also consider

Heavenly Father a deity?

Tony

[Storm Rider]

If the above quote is true, then I think it is one of the most fundamental problems in the world today. Actually, as an LDS Druid, I’m a bit of a panentheist. I see the numinous in virtually everything. Today, though, I want to focus on humanity, what we are capable of, what we really are.

In The Druidry Handbook, John Michael Greer uses the legend of King Arthur to represent the potential within each human soul. He writes that our words King and Queen derive from the Anglo-Saxon cyning (he of the kin) and cwen (woman). Hence, the king and queen had the responsibility of embodying the full measure of what it means to be a man or a woman.

Moses famously said, “Would God all the Lord’s people were Prophets.” (Numbers 11:29) Joseph Smith taught that everything he knew would be revealed to the Saints “as fast as [they are] able to bear them.” Finally, Jesus taught that his faithful would do even greater things than he did. So, we learn that our potential is even greater than mere royalty. The reason for this is simple, as St. Paul writes, we are the offspring of the God of the Universe. (Acts 17-28-9)

So what does it mean to be the offspring of God? From two ancient Near East temple hymns, we get the following:

For thou hast made [man] a little lower than the gods (elohim) and hast crowned him with glory and honour. (Psalms 8:5)

Ye are gods and all of you are children of the most high (Psalms 82:6)

Shakespeare’s Prospero provides a beautiful example of a human fulfilling his mortal potential. When the play begins, he is well on his way, but it isn’t until the climax that he finds the final transformation into pure gold.

Speaking of pure gold brings us to the art of alchemy and Hermes Trismegistus’ aphorism, “Know ye not that ye are gods?” The goal of alchemy is the spiritual, psychological and emotional development of the practitioner.

Nathair, I do not mean to offend, but I cringe everytime you bring up being LDS and being a druid. I view it as an impossibility; they conflict from beginning to end. They are based on a wholly different understanding of who God is and his purpose for us. I almost wish there was a disclaimer that you are a very strange (as in unique) individual among the LDS Church and its members.

I expect that there might be a few situations similar among other churches, but I have never heard of it. Obviously you do not see the conflict and I am left to struggle as to why and how? Of course, the other side could be that I am very **** and dislike blantant incongruities and feel compelled to correct and should just look the other way.

[Nathair/|\]

Nathair, I do not mean to offend, but I cringe everytime you bring up being LDS and being a druid. I view it as an impossibility; they conflict from beginning to end. They are based on a wholly different understanding of who God is and his purpose for us. I almost wish there was a disclaimer that you are a very strange (as in unique) individual among the LDS Church and its members.

I expect that there might be a few situations similar among other churches, but I have never heard of it. Obviously you do not see the conflict and I am left to struggle as to why and how? Of course, the other side could be that I am very **** and dislike blantant incongruities and feel compelled to correct and should just look the other way.

I'd be interested to know what incongruities you see, ie. what beliefs do you think are fundamental to druidry that conflict with what beliefs you see as fundamental to being LDS?

One thing that I think should be said is that I am a very weird individual in any company. I don't think I truly fit in anywhere.

However, where I see a conflict, I prioritize the scriptures over anything else in my cosmology.

[volgadon]

Who considered Satan a deity? And did this person also consider

Heavenly Father a deity?

Tony

The author of 2 Corinthians.

[Nathair/|\]

Another quote I recently found that I'd like to work in:

"There's no such thing as an ordinary human." The (tenth) Doctor.