Orthodox Christians Are Atheists

[Ahab]

The Nicene Creed states that Christ is of ONE SUBSTANCE with the FATHER." The Substance of Spirit is outside the realm of physical existence. It is "other." Spirit is not visible - for God is Spirit, and God is Invisible. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same substance as the Father, and none else are. A man cannot share their substance, other than to partake of God's energies. For instance, were you to take a metal rod and put it into a blazing furnace (the furnace being God, the rod being man), the rod will turn firey red and hot. It has partaken of the energies of God, but it is not the furnace, nor is it the fire. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the furnace, they are the firey substance, and they alone are God. Men cannot become gods, they are creatures. They will always be creatures.

Ugh. I need a break, but before I go I'll say this, again:

Man is already the same kind of being God is, although not necessarily as perfect as our Father in heaven.

Have a good weekend folks. I'm blowing this popsicle stand.

[Zakuska]

The Nicene Creed states that Christ is of ONE SUBSTANCE with the FATHER." The Substance of Spirit is outside the realm of physical existence. It is "other." Spirit is not visible - for God is Spirit, and God is Invisible. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same substance as the Father, and none else are. A man cannot share their substance, other than to partake of God's energies. For instance, were you to take a metal rod and put it into a blazing furnace (the furnace being God, the rod being man), the rod will turn firey red and hot. It has partaken of the energies of God, but it is not the furnace, nor is it the fire. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the furnace, they are the firey substance, and they alone are God. Men cannot become gods, they are creatures. They will always be creatures.

And yet the Septuagint calls Christ a creature, and yet he still is God.

Man is also called a spirit and he isn't invisible.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Zakuska

[Calm]

Where do people come up with all of these crazy ideas?!?

Not a math major, were you?

[Calm]

Uh. Hello!

What makes you think infinite space can get bigger? It's already infinite. Do you know how big infinite is? It is endless, and you can't get more endless than endless.

I wish I could see the look on your face when you eventually realize how wrong you are now.

Ahab, I would love to see you take a few physics and astronomy classes. I think you might have a lot of fun. It really does make sense, it's just harder to visualize....but that doesn't mean it's not real.

There have been some TV programs on space and such that have managed to make some decent visual analogies, you might try going to look at them and see if you still disagree. It really is cool how it works out.

[etana]

Theres the problem with that. how can infinity get any bigger? That would mean theres an edge to space some where and possibly when one goes beyond that they reach Tartarus?

infinity +1?

[Franktalk]

I had a question enter my head the other night while studying the Book of Daniel. Daniel is tremendously exciting to study - especially inasmuch as it is written partially to the Jews (in Hebrew), and partially written to the Gentiles (in Aramaic). Of course, the end times prophesies are awesome, it contains the interrupted prayer which teaches us about how powerful the dominions and principalities of darkness really are,etc., and King Nebuchadnezzar himself wrote the fourth chapter... Anyway, it got me thinking about how Jesus is Jewish. He is the God of Abraham; thus the God who covenanted with Abraham long before Jesus was ever born in the flesh. So, here is my question to Trinitarians. Is the Trinity Jewish? I am not being light hearted here; I seriously wonder if those who believe in the Trinity have ever thought this through. If Father, Son and Holy Ghost are, indeed, of the same substance (and/or essence), wouldn't they also all be Jewish? Also, then, how would this look to those who believe in Replacement Theology? Does this mean that converted Gentiles (not forgetting, btw, that Jesus was also called Rabbi) believe in a Jewish God? Somehow, wouldn't this also make God a respector of persons? This opens a huge box of questions.

Best regards,

jo

This is a good question. Was Christ Jewish before He came in the flesh or was He born Jewish? In a trinitarian view does this mean the Father and the Holy Ghost due to their essence connection also become Jewish? Or does essence have limits? I mean Jesus does not know the day and the hour but Father does. So it appears that essence has limits. Also the Holy Ghost only speaks what the Father tells Him to. Is this yet another limit of essence? So if they are one except and except and except where does it stop?

Oy vey

[HeatherAnn]

I don't believe Orthadox Christians are Atheists. Actually, I don't believe Atheists are really Atheists. Yes, they don't believe in the God we believe in - yet they do believe in & actively pursue love (which is GOD).

Mormons believe in the Santa Clause version of God. That's ok, but if we believe God is not limited, but omnipotent & like dark (invisible) energy that permeates 95% of the universe, including us... then he/she could not be limited to a body like us. We made God into our own image - or maybe the image of our grandpas.

Still, for most, it's much easier to resonate with someone, rather than an abstract concept... easier to relate to Santa than the "Spirit of Christmas."

Edited September 24, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Storm Rider]

The Nicene Creed states that Christ is of ONE SUBSTANCE with the FATHER." The Substance of Spirit is outside the realm of physical existence. It is "other." Spirit is not visible - for God is Spirit, and God is Invisible. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same substance as the Father, and none else are. A man cannot share their substance, other than to partake of God's energies. For instance, were you to take a metal rod and put it into a blazing furnace (the furnace being God, the rod being man), the rod will turn firey red and hot. It has partaken of the energies of God, but it is not the furnace, nor is it the fire. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the furnace, they are the firey substance, and they alone are God. Men cannot become gods, they are creatures. They will always be creatures.

Are you saying that if it was God's intent to make us gods he could not do it? How would God be prevented from this? This position always confuses me when I hear or read it; the fundamental acceptance that God can do everything, but make man like him. As if it was too difficult or impossible for the God the universe to do. It is no a logical position.

[Ahab]

The "primeval atom" idea (invented by a Catholic priest, by the way) is not the current understanding of the big bang. Under current theory, there was no initial hot "atom." Rather, the universe started as a cold state of extremely low entropy. Matter and energy came later, as a natural consequence of the expansion of space.

Alright. Cough it up. What is your definition or understanding of "space"? You know, that black stuff out there which surrounds planets and all of the other matter out there in the infinite universe.

I consider it to be the "nothingness" which contains all of the matter there is. How do you make nothing bigger? I can see how planets can move apart more to create more distance between planets, but that doesn't add or subtract from all of the space that there is, because space itself is infinite.

Please explain your idea so that even a child could understand it, otherwise I'll still consider it to be just a bunch of hoopla which exists only in the imaginations of so-called "smart" people.

[jo1952]

I don't believe Orthadox Christians are Atheists. Actually, I don't believe Atheists are really Atheists. Yes, they don't believe in the God we believe in - yet they do believe in & actively pursue love (which is GOD).

Mormons believe in the Santa Clause version of God. That's ok, but if we believe God is not limited, but omnipotent & like dark (invisible) energy that permeates 95% of the universe, including us... then he/she could not be limited to a body like us. We made God into our own image - or maybe the image of our grandpas.

Still, for most, it's much easier to resonate with someone, rather than an abstract concept... easier to relate to Santa than the "Spirit of Christmas."

Hi HeatherAnn,

I think it is interesting how mankind necessarily finds labels to describe circumstances. Our language is limited to what we can relate to, including our ideas and thoughts. I would like to offer an observation that even the Bible does not have a category for an atheist or his fate in the end times. The worst fate for a man appears to be that of a Son of Perdition. Even the Son of Perdition will be someone who believes in God - because he will have been given undeniable and irrefutable proof that Christ exists and is our Savior. What will make a person a Son of Perdition is his rejection of Christ's Atonement; he will be someone who refuses to accept Christ. This is very different and distinct from not believing in God.

Also, I think you are on to something; i.e., that any belief in or pursuit of love done by someone we label as atheist IS of God. So, there are no "true" atheists - this is just a label man uses to make distinctions. I would even offer that there are many "atheists" who manifest love much more purely and abundantly than some who have professed their belief in God or in Christ.

Best regards,

jo

[Ahab]

infinity +1?

The problem with mathematics is that some people think if they can write something down in a formula that means that it can really exist, as if "theoretical" physics corresponds to reality.

[Ahab]

Ahab, I would love to see you take a few physics and astronomy classes. I think you might have a lot of fun. It really does make sense, it's just harder to visualize....but that doesn't mean it's not real.

There have been some TV programs on space and such that have managed to make some decent visual analogies, you might try going to look at them and see if you still disagree. It really is cool how it works out.

I have and I still do have a lot of fun while learning about physics and astronomy.

To get the best results you need to have a really good teacher, though, otherwise you can easily get a so-called smart guy who is just being silly.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Ahab

[Calm]

I have and I still do have a lot of fun while learning about physics and astronomy.

To get the best results you need to have a really good teacher, though, otherwise you can easily get a so-called smart guy who is just being silly.

Some subjects can get by without a good teacher, I would agree that physics and astronomy are not one of them. Too many things are counterintuitive.

Edited September 24, 2011 by calmoriah

[etana]

I don't believe Orthadox Christians are Atheists. Actually, I don't believe Atheists are really Atheists. Yes, they don't believe in the God we believe in - yet they do believe in & actively pursue love (which is GOD).

Mormons believe in the Santa Clause version of God. That's ok, but if we believe God is not limited, but omnipotent & like dark (invisible) energy that permeates 95% of the universe, including us... then he/she could not be limited to a body like us. We made God into our own image - or maybe the image of our grandpas.

Still, for most, it's much easier to resonate with someone, rather than an abstract concept... easier to relate to Santa than the "Spirit of Christmas."

i like the way you said this.

[etana]

Please explain your idea so that even a child could understand it, otherwise I'll still consider it to be just a bunch of hoopla which exists only in the imaginations of so-called "smart" people.

We are all children in some sense and there are some things that children cannot understand.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

[ERayR]

Rob Bowman you said: "In recent posts on the Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board, two Mormons have asserted that orthodox Christians, who believe that God is an immaterial being existing in three persons, are actually atheists:"

You seem to think this is an inacurate and unfair assessment of your beliefs, even maybe a disingenuious characterization. I would submit that they are only voicing their understanding of your doctrine as seen from an LDS viewpoint.

You have been told many times that your characterizations of Mormon beliefs and internal discussions are inacurate projections of your own biasis and yet you continue to ignore the protestations and continue in your inacurate characterizations from your own biasis.

I for one will take you at your word and believe that you are not an athiest but really do have a sincere belief in God, no matter how inaccurate I think your description of him is. Perhaps it is time for you to extend the same courtesy to the Church I love and it members.

[zerinus]

Alright. Cough it up. What is your definition or understanding of "space"? You know, that black stuff out there which surrounds planets and all of the other matter out there in the infinite universe.

I consider it to be the "nothingness" which contains all of the matter there is. How do you make nothing bigger? I can see how planets can move apart more to create more distance between planets, but that doesn't add or subtract from all of the space that there is, because space itself is infinite.

Please explain your idea so that even a child could understand it, otherwise I'll still consider it to be just a bunch of hoopla which exists only in the imaginations of so-called "smart" people.

I am not an expert in these areas, but like to dip my toes in them just for the fun of it. The way I understand it is that space is not just nothing; it is something; and it has certain physical properties or attributes. For example, according to General Relativity, space-time is curved by the presence of a gravitational field. The observed phenomena can best be explained in terms of the curvature of space. If that is true, it would suggest that space is something; it is not just nothing. Here is a quote and a reference:

.

This demonstrates in a (relatively) simple way that when we consider the laws of physics in a gravitational field, we will need to consider them in a curved space. One of the basic principles of classical physics is that light travels in straight lines, but in a gravitational field it follows a curved path. This is good evidence that a flat geometry will not be adequate for describing the passage of light or other electromagnetic waves in a gravitational field. In other words, our familiar "flat" space-time will need to be replaced by a curved space time.

.

Note that strictly this argument only demonstrates the curvature of the spatial part of space-time–the temporal part is curved too, but I think you will agree that this is a much more difficult concept to envisage, and as such is best left to the experts!

Link

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[HeatherAnn]

Hi HeatherAnn,

I think it is interesting how mankind necessarily finds labels to describe circumstances. Our language is limited to what we can relate to, including our ideas and thoughts. I would like to offer an observation that even the Bible does not have a category for an atheist or his fate in the end times. The worst fate for a man appears to be that of a Son of Perdition. Even the Son of Perdition will be someone who believes in God - because he will have been given undeniable and irrefutable proof that Christ exists and is our Savior. What will make a person a Son of Perdition is his rejection of Christ's Atonement; he will be someone who refuses to accept Christ. This is very different and distinct from not believing in God.

Also, I think you are on to something; i.e., that any belief in or pursuit of love done by someone we label as atheist IS of God. So, there are no "true" atheists - this is just a label man uses to make distinctions. I would even offer that there are many "atheists" who manifest love much more purely and abundantly than some who have professed their belief in God or in Christ.

Best regards,

jo

Thanks for your comments, Jo, & again, I really appreciate how kindly you express yourself.

Yeah, labels are helpful in simplifying life so we can pretend we understand (ha ha) & to communicate...

Yet, they are so limiting too. I know we've been taught that if you don't profess the name of Jesus, then you won't be saved.

To me, that doesn't make sense & seems to be rooted in the political power that greatly influenced compiling biblical canon.

As Elder William Shakespeare & GAs have said... words aren't as important as the meaning they represent & the spirit they stir.

That's so true about how well we love is a better indicator of our true belief in God than anything else.

It's not so much what is said, but sometimes how it's said... or written.

[HeatherAnn]

i like the way you said this.

Thanks, Etana.

[jo1952]

Thanks for your comments, Jo, & again, I really appreciate how kindly you express yourself.

Yeah, labels are helpful in simplifying life so we can pretend we understand (ha ha) & to communicate...

Yet, they are so limiting too. I know we've been taught that if you don't profess the name of Jesus, then you won't be saved.

To me, that doesn't make sense & seems to be rooted in the political power that greatly influenced compiling biblical canon.

As Elder William Shakespeare & GAs have said... words aren't as important as the meaning they represent & the spirit they stir.

William Shakespeare was a master at eliciting meaning and stirring the spirit!!!

That's so true about how well we love is a better indicator of our true belief in God than anything else.

It's not so much what is said, but sometimes how it's said... or written.

I am greatly comforted with the knowledge Christ can see the intent of our hearts and will be able to see past all the negative influences we have experienced in our journey (as He has also experienced them; thus understands them). Also, the fruit of our actions truly speak louder than words. God IS love; and it is through love we become one.

Thank you, HeatherAnn.

Love,

jo

[Tarski]

In recent posts on the Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board, two Mormons have asserted that orthodox Christians, who believe that God is an immaterial being existing in three persons, are actually atheists:

“The more I think about it, the more I come to realize that trinitarians are closet atheists because God doesn't exist in any real way for them. It's just an abstraction.” BCSpace, Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board, 5 Aug. 2011.

“An ‘immaterial’ non-existant God who doesn’t have a body is the very definition of Athieism.” Zakuska, Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board, 22 Sept. 2011.

Well, if the orthodox Christian God is the same one whose existence theologians attempt to prove using modal logic (say Godel or Plantinga) then I can see the point. What kind of God is that??

By the way, do you have a version of the trinity doctrine that some other Christian (a theologian say) will not reject as "mere modalism" or some other heresy? It seems to me that any version that isn't a flat contradiction just isn't mysterious enough to be the right version.

[Cobalt-70]

Ack! Think about what you're saying, man! Get a grip on reality!

Space is the dark empty... uh, "space"... out there in the universe, and if you were to take all of the matter out of it all you would be left with is the nothing it is. You can't make "nothing" bigger.than it is, as if you can expand the borders of nothing. Nothing has no borders, because it is in fact nothing, so the only stuff out there is the stuff that is in it, with the rest of being the "space" between all of it.

Where do people come up with all of these crazy ideas?!?

This is standard modern physics, and it is mathematically consistent. Space is more than just nothing. If you take out all the matter, you are still left with space. Space has dimensions, such as length, width, and height. Empty space is also teeming with invisible "virtual" particles that pop in and out of existence, so there is a residual energy left over in empty space even if all matter is removed.

You can think of the space in the universe as the surface of a balloon. If you want, you can put little points on the balloon with a marker to represent particles of matter, but the if you don't include these points of matter, the balloon still exists. If you expand the balloon, it gets bigger, and if there are points of matter present, they get further away from each other. Also, the balloon doesn't have any borders (at least in the second dimension). The analogy isn't perfect, but it's basically what's happening.

[Cobalt-70]

Uh. Hello!

What makes you think infinite space can get bigger? It's already infinite. Do you know how big infinite is? It is endless, and you can't get more endless than endless.

I wish I could see the look on your face when you eventually realize how wrong you are now.

The total volume of space doesn't change. It is still infinite. However, the spaces between things can still expand. It can be mathematically proven. But in any event, we don't know whether space is actually infinite, or just extremely large.

[dougtheavenger]

I dissaprove of this kind of name calling. It smacks too much of those anti-Mormons who claim Mormons are not Christians because they differ slightly on details about Jesus. Furthermore Mormons are trinitarians. We bleieve in a trinity of three divine persons; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, who are one in purpose. Roman Catholics and many other Christian denominations believe in a trinity of three divine persons; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, who are one in substance. It is in the "substance" versus "purpose" part that we differ, not the trinity itself.

Edited September 25, 2011 by dougtheavenger

[HeatherAnn]

William Shakespeare was a master at eliciting meaning and stirring the spirit!!!

Indeed! If we intellectually & spiritually explored each of our definitions of God, even within the church, we'd get all kinds of interpretations... Yet, as Shakespeare said...

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose...By any other name would smell as sweet."

I am greatly comforted with the knowledge Christ can see the intent of our hearts and will be able to see past all the negative influences we have experienced in our journey (as He has also experienced them; thus understands them). Also, the fruit of our actions truly speak louder than words. God IS love; and it is through love we become one.

Thank you, HeatherAnn.

Love,

jo

Thank you! You're awesome, Jo!