Orthodox Christians Are Atheists

[Jesterss]

Actually no it does not.

All this verse says is that it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body. Nothing in here about a natural body first or that we did not live as spirits before this earth.

Oh really? perhaps you missed this one: ⁴⁶ The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

Anyway context of this chapter is all about the resurrection. So our physical body a natural body it will die, the next body will be alive by the spirit and will not die.

There is nothing in these verses talking about a preexistence or the lack there of. Consider Eccl 12:7

We should look at the preceeding verses of scripture too.

Context dictates Paul is specifically talking about the resurrection of the dead. Nothing else.

And verse 47 seals the deal.

I would say that verse 47 sums up verse 44 more accurately.

Ecclesiastes just tells us that our spirit will return to God who gives it. We are taught that the spirit becomes in us once we receive the Holy Spirit. That Jesus is the light and the life. Whoever drinks his water shall never die.

Of course it is the resurrection of the dead. Because the people asked what Body will we have? And he tells them that we have a natural body first and then we will receive our spiritual body. So therefore, the natural/flesh is first, the spirit is second.

[Jesterss]

Then I will tell you we can overcome our spiritual death through the atonement of Jesus Christ, and through obedience to the principles and ordinances of His gospel. At babtism we are reborn to a new person, and through continual obedience to the teachings of the gospel we overcome spiritual death. We receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost and take upon us His name, and He promises that we may have His spirit to be with us if we follow Him and repent of our sins.

But spiritual death is to be cut off from God. No return. We are told that anyone who comes to God and believes in Jesus is with God and is not dead but alive. We also are told that anyone who knows God and believes in Jesus the savior and son of God , but then turns away from them, cannot come back to the light or way of life.

This sums it up:

Our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord. …

Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death” Alma 42:7, 9

I think this would be a descent understanding of the bible if it weren't for Jesus' death. Jesus died so we weren't separated from God anymore.

Actually, being in the presence of God before we were born comes from Abraham 3:

Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast before thou wast born.

Right, I can understand where you get your belief from a mormon perspective but not biblically.

[Flyonthewall]

But spiritual death is to be cut off from God. No return. We are told that anyone who comes to God and believes in Jesus is with God and is not dead but alive. We also are told that anyone who knows God and believes in Jesus the savior and son of God , but then turns away from them, cannot come back to the light or way of life.

And it would have been so from the fall of Adam for all mankind...unless there was a Redeemer... a Savior. It would have been un-just to condemn all of mankind because of the actions of 2 people. The Atonement reclaims us from Spiritual death, if we follow Christ.

I think this would be a descent understanding of the bible if it weren't for Jesus' death. Jesus died so we weren't separated from God anymore.

Exactly... The spiritual death brought on by Adam is overcome by the Atonement. It is a temporary state. We will all stand before God to be judged so we will get back to the presence of God at least for that, but the judgement will determine if we stay there or not.

Right, I can understand where you get your belief from a mormon perspective but not biblically.

There are biblical scriptures that point to it but are misunderstood by mainstream Christianity.

[Jesterss]

And it would have been so from the fall of Adam for all mankind...unless there was a Redeemer... a Savior. It would have been un-just to condemn all of mankind because of the actions of 2 people. The Atonement reclaims us from Spiritual death, if we follow Christ.

Right, and we agree that there was a redeemer. Abraham and Moses both walked with God too though, before Christs actual crucifixion. They were not spiritually dead. or separated as you point out dead to mean.

Exactly... The spiritual death brought on by Adam is overcome by the Atonement. It is a temporary state. We will all stand before God to be judged so we will get back to the presence of God at least for that, but the judgement will determine if we stay there or not.

I don't disagree with this. I only disagree that we are spiritually dead right now. That I completely disagree with.

There are biblical scriptures that point to it but are misunderstood by mainstream Christianity.

Well fortunately I'm not part of any mainstream, so I'm willing to listen to the right answer. But the connection has to be made.

[altersteve]

I don't disagree with this. I only disagree that we are spiritually dead right now. That I completely disagree with.

We are only spiritually dead until we have faith in Jesus Christ, repent, get baptized for the remission of our sins, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and strive to keep His commandments. When we commit to that, we are born again, but we can sin and withdraw ourselves from God, thus becoming spiritually dead once more. Thankfully, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can become born again and again and again, each time drawing closer to our Heavenly Father than we were before. And in addition to the Atonement, which is most important, God has given us other things such as the scriptures, His prophets, and a means of communication with Him (prayer) to help us in our mortal journey towards Him.

Edited October 14, 2011 by altersteve

[Flyonthewall]

Right, and we agree that there was a redeemer. Abraham and Moses both walked with God too though, before Christs actual crucifixion. They were not spiritually dead. or separated as you point out dead to mean.

Do you believe the Atonement to be eternal? or only effective for those who lived during and after Jesus' mortal ministry? I believe the effects of the Atonement reach back to Adam, and thru the end of this world.

If you thought it through, you would realize that Abraham and Moses were follwoing Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ was the Great I AM...The Great Jehova. It is thru obedience to the gospel of Christ that makes us spiritually alive.

I don't disagree with this. I only disagree that we are spiritually dead right now. That I completely disagree with.

As has been stated before, we are spiritually dead until we are re-born a new person and follow the principles and ordinances of the the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Well fortunately I'm not part of any mainstream, so I'm willing to listen to the right answer. But the connection has to be made.

Here is a list of biblical scriptures that point to our existance as spirits, but as I stated before most of Christianity do not interpret them as such:

• God of the spirits of all flesh, Num. 16:22 (Num. 27:16).
  
• all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38:7
  
• the spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7
  
• Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:5
  
• Lord … formeth the spirit of man within him, Zech. 12:1
  
• who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind, John 9:2
  
• poets have said, For we are also his offspring, Acts 17:28
  
• For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate, Rom. 8:29
  
• chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:4
  
• subjection unto the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9
  
• angels which kept not their first estate, Jude 1:6
  
• Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, Rev. 12:7