Orthodox Christians Are Atheists

[Jesterss]

If God is omnipotent as you say, and can destroy anything at His will, then it is by His will that Satan and his followers exist....otherwise He would have rid the universe of him long ago.

Furthermore, if, as I have heard others say, the wicked will spend an eternity in Hell full of pain and suffering, instead of simply being winked out of existance...what kind of picture is this painting?

I never claimed to believe that there will be eternal suffering for human non-believers as I slightly hinted at earlier actually.. My view is that those who don't believe, will not exist, and will be simply annihilated from existence rather than suffer any pain.. The true sufferers will be those with much greater knowledge of God such as Satan and his following angels, I do believe they will eternally torment... That's why I said earlier those who don't believe would not receive immortality.. and it is only by his gift and blessing that those who do believe will receive immortality.. Our logic seems to agree..

edit: on the note that saying it was God's will that satan and his followers exist, it is true that he created them and that they do exist, but he didn't make him evil, he only gave him the knowledge to know the two, and satan chose to become evil and defy God on his own free will. God did give us free will.

edit 2: to not believe in the concept of free will, would simply deny the concept of us even having the struggle of finding God and Jesus on our own, it would be predetermined and it really wouldn't matter what we thought logically, it would just happen the way it was all planned anyway... and I don't make claims for how God is, but I find it highly impossible that such a loving God would create individuals that are simply doomed from the beginning, or the fact that temptations even exist. temptations from the devil would simply be a ridiculous and preposterous notion.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Jesterss

[Jesterss]

You should expect LDS references and assumptions on the "Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board".

That's why I said it's fine. Obviously that's why he has the beliefs that he has, and I respect that.. and it's good to know where he gets it from.. Just isn't going to be a convincing point to me so we were going to disagree in our logic.. that's all I was getting at.

[Pahoran]

I think it is very clear that I offend you just by existing, so it is what is Pahoran. I certainly am not out to please you and I'm not going out of my way to offend you. *shrug*

Not at all. You do not offend me "just by existing." But it is arrogant for you to rely upon your silly "Mormons ain't Christians" mantra when it has been so thoroughly refuted.

I haven't robbed you of anything. Your birthright is the same as everyone's. Christ died for all.

You seem to want to diminish the belief I have, what I see, that Mormons seek Christ. I don't see this as something less, something lost, or something undesirable. I see it as Good, as a gift from God.

It is not politeness that I seek, but charity, and it would not be charitable for me to say to you, "you have what God desires for you", when you don't.

If you could just bring yourself to take a marginally less arrogant view of the matter, you would realise that that's not for you to say.

Truth is much more important than that. Seeking Jesus Christ is seeking Truth itself, so it is, Mormons are on the same journey as all Christians. I believe that God judges us, and will judge many non-Christians to be in Heaven with Him. That is the inheritance you should seek, not the approval of anyone, including myself.

I assure you that in proclaiming that we are Christians, we are seeking no approval of anyone, least of all those who erroneously imagine that they have any say in the matter.

This is something you and the rest of the naysayers don't seem to get: Christianity is not your "club." We are not coming to you, cap in hand, asking for admittance. We are telling you that we are Christians, for the very good and sufficient reason that we are.

And that's the case whether you like it or not.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Flyonthewall]

I never claimed to believe that there will be eternal suffering for human non-believers as I slightly hinted at earlier actually.. My view is that those who don't believe, will not exist, and will be simply annihilated from existence rather than suffer any pain.. The true sufferers will be those with much greater knowledge of God such as Satan and his following angels, I do believe they will eternally torment... That's why I said earlier those who don't believe would not receive immortality.. and it is only by his gift and blessing that those who do believe will receive immortality.. Our logic seems to agree..

I would be interested to see what you base this on. When I read the scriptures I don't get that from them or come to the same conclusion...so what is it that tells you that unbelievers will cease to exist?

edit: on the note that saying it was God's will that satan and his followers exist, it is true that he created them and that they do exist, but he didn't make him evil, he only gave him the knowledge to know the two, and satan chose to become evil and defy God on his own free will. God did give us free will.

edit 2: to not believe in the concept of free will, would simply deny the concept of us even having the struggle of finding God and Jesus on our own, it would be predetermined and it really wouldn't matter what we thought logically, it would just happen the way it was all planned anyway... and I don't make claims for how God is, but I find it highly impossible that such a loving God would create individuals that are simply doomed from the beginning, or the fact that temptations even exist. temptations from the devil would simply be a ridiculous and preposterous notion.

[Jesterss]

I would be interested to see what you base this on. When I read the scriptures I don't get that from them or come to the same conclusion...so what is it that tells you that unbelievers will cease to exist?

Well, I have a few scriptures in mind. Share your thoughts as well.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

¹³ Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. ¹⁴ For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. ¹⁵ According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. ¹⁸ Therefore encourage one another with these words.

²⁵ Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; ²⁶and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?

The last two references do not speak of annihilation or its relation, but of death, and how death will not surpass those who believe in Christ. So it can be understood that those who die without believing will not receive life. There's a lot of times throughout scripture like this last reference on John 11 that Jesus speaks about death and life through him...

Edit: It fits in line with the idea of Conditional Immortality... So I don't expect it to be an accepted concept here, just my opinion on my exegesis.. but there are quite a few early theologians who held the conditional immortality view.. Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Arnobius..

Edited October 7, 2011 by Jesterss

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In recent posts on the Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board, two Mormons have asserted that orthodox Christians, who believe that God is an immaterial being existing in three persons, are actually atheists:

“The more I think about it, the more I come to realize that trinitarians are closet atheists because God doesn't exist in any real way for them. It's just an abstraction.” BCSpace, Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board, 5 Aug. 2011.

“An ‘immaterial’ non-existant God who doesn’t have a body is the very definition of Athieism.” Zakuska, Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board, 22 Sept. 2011.

Are these opinions isolated to a couple of extremists, or are they representative of a significant tradition of Mormon criticism of orthodox Christianity? The latter is in fact the case.

Since when has anyone of different faith’s not disagreed on “who” are “what” God is; the Christian definition of God is the minority one among the earth’s religions. Jews do not believe as you; Muslims, Buddhists, etc. The two people you cite as extremists are merely Mormons expressing their opinions. I have never known either to hold extremist views about anything.

[Flyonthewall]

Well, I have a few scriptures in mind. Share your thoughts as well.

As you may well know, we view death simply as separation...physical death is the separation of the spirit and the body. Spiritiual death is separation from God.

The scripture that comes to mind that teaches that all will be resurrected is 1 Corinthians 15:22

"22 For as in ^aAdam all ^bdie, even so in ^cChrist shall all be made ^dalive.". There is nothing in there that says only believers, no qualifiers at all. Because of Christ, ALL will be made alive.

The last two references do not speak of annihilation or its relation, but of death, and how death will not surpass those who believe in Christ. So it can be understood that those who die without believing will not receive life. There's a lot of times throughout scripture like this last reference on John 11 that Jesus speaks about death and life through him...

Edit: It fits in line with the idea of Conditional Immortality... So I don't expect it to be an accepted concept here, just my opinion on my exegesis.. but there are quite a few early theologians who held the conditional immortality view.. Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Arnobius..

The only reference that could be understood to be annihilation is Matthew 28:10. But there are other scriptures that contradict it, such as 1 Corinthians.

Revelations 21 speaks to the unbelievers:

" 8 But the fearful, and ^aunbelieving, and the abominable, and ^bmurderers, and ^cwhoremongers, and ^dsorcerers, and idolaters, and all ^eliars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the ^fsecond ^gdeath."

The second death is not said to be annihilation but that they will have a part, albeit an undesireable part.

As has been stated before, immortality is not the same as Eternal Life. Immortality is simply living forever, which can be in or out of the presence of God. Eternal Life is immortality in the presence of God.

[altersteve]

Immortality = power over physical death

Eternal life = power over spiritual death

[Jesterss]

As you may well know, we view death simply as separation...physical death is the separation of the spirit and the body. Spiritiual death is separation from God.

The scripture that comes to mind that teaches that all will be resurrected is 1 Corinthians 15:22

"22 For as in ^aAdam all ^bdie, even so in ^cChrist shall all be made ^dalive.". There is nothing in there that says only believers, no qualifiers at all. Because of Christ, ALL will be made alive.

Look at the comparison here. We are all in Adam correct? I think we can both agree on this first one, so of course, we all die a physical bodily death. But are we all of/in Christ? Not at all. It is up to us to accept Christ and be one with him and in him. If we do not have christ, we will not be made alive. Romans 8 makes this distinction very clear.

⁵ Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. ⁶ The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. ⁷ The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. ⁸ Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

⁹ You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. ¹⁰ But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life^[d] because of righteousness. ¹¹ And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of^[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

We are not all of Christ unless we make that effort to accept and believe in him.

The only reference that could be understood to be annihilation is Matthew 28:10. But there are other scriptures that contradict it, such as 1 Corinthians.

Revelations 21 speaks to the unbelievers:

"unbelieving, and the abominable, and ^bmurderers, and ^cwhoremongers, and ^dsorcerers, and idolaters, and all ^eliars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the ^fsecond ^gdeath."

The second death is not said to be annihilation but that they will have a part, albeit an undesireable part.

But it never says they will be given a second chance from here. It says they will undergo a second death. What is death? Clearly it is not life.

As has been stated before, immortality is not the same as Eternal Life. Immortality is simply living forever, which can be in or out of the presence of God. Eternal Life is immortality in the presence of God.

Without the presence of God and Jesus, we do not have the gift of life though. So I may agree with your definition, but not to say that we will have immortality without God's presence.. the bible does not indicate this.

[Jesterss]

Immortality = power over physical death

Eternal life = power over spiritual death

³ Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

That is eternal life. To know God and Jesus Christ.

[wenglund]

That is eternal life. To know God and Jesus Christ.

...which knowledge entails, in part, salvific power over spiritual death caused by sin:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:21)

""Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:54)

"That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:7)

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it." (1 John 5:16)

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12)

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." (Romans 8:6)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jesterss]

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:21)

""Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:54)

"That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:7)

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it." (1 John 5:16)

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12)

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." (Romans 8:6)

Thanks for all the references. I thought of posting them all as well but figured it wasn't as needed.. As the reference I posted was directly from Jesus..

...which knowledge entails, in part, salvific power over spiritual death caused by sin:

Point being? How does this change that sin is death, and God and Jesus are eternal life? Without them is obviously staying in sin and not coming to the light, so therefore you remain in the darkness of sin, which again, is death..

[Flyonthewall]

Thanks for all the references. I thought of posting them all as well but figured it wasn't as needed.. As the reference I posted was directly from Jesus..

Point being? How does this change that sin is death, and God and Jesus are eternal life? Without them is obviously staying in sin and not coming to the light, so therefore you remain in the darkness of sin, which again, is death..

Death is separation...not annihilation. Physical death is when our spirit is separated from our phisical body. Spiritual death is separation from the presence of God.

[altersteve]

That is eternal life. To know God and Jesus Christ.

Which is not the same thing as immortality (i.e., living forever). The verse you cited supports what I said about eternal life being power over spiritual death, and is actually one of the verses from which I learned this principle:

The work and the glory of God is to bring to pass man's immortality and eternal life (Moses 1:39); that is, to save man from physical and spiritual death. Power over physical death (immortality/resurrection) is guaranteed to everyone; eternal life is only for those who have overcome spiritual death through Jesus Christ. And the only way to overcome spiritual death is to "know God and Jesus Christ," a knowledge which allows us to mend the separation between us and God (like Flyonthewall said previously, death is separation). This knowledge, however, comes to us gradually, and does not happen immediately. Several verses in the Book of Mormon also teach this principle, but I'm not going to list them all.

Edited October 9, 2011 by altersteve

[altersteve]

Without the presence of God and Jesus, we do not have the gift of life though. So I may agree with your definition, but not to say that we will have immortality without God's presence.. the bible does not indicate this.

I hope you realize that, even if this is true, this isn't a problem for LDS.

Edited October 9, 2011 by altersteve

[Jesterss]

Death is separation...not annihilation. Physical death is when our spirit is separated from our phisical body. Spiritual death is separation from the presence of God.

But then you at least agree that there is a spiritual death. It's just a matter of what happens upon spiritual death that we have our differences. So it appears.

What is your belief of those who have spiritual death/separation from God?

[wenglund]

Thanks for all the references. I thought of posting them all as well but figured it wasn't as needed.. As the reference I posted was directly from Jesus..

Point being? How does this change that sin is death, and God and Jesus are eternal life? Without them is obviously staying in sin and not coming to the light, so therefore you remain in the darkness of sin, which again, is death..

Who said it changed anything? I was simply underscoring the point that eternal life = power over spiritual death.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jesterss]

Who said it changed anything? I was simply underscoring the point that eternal life = power over spiritual death.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Sorry, with the difference of opinions from others, I thought you were trying to state something that I may have missed. Since you directed those at me.. Point taken, and agreed, but only in the precept of knowing what it is that brings forth eternal life...

Edited October 10, 2011 by Jesterss

[Flyonthewall]

But then you at least agree that there is a spiritual death. It's just a matter of what happens upon spiritual death that we have our differences. So it appears.

What is your belief of those who have spiritual death/separation from God?

We are currently in a state of spiritual death as we are not currenlty in the presence of God. This was a by-product of the fall of Adam. The atonement saves us all from this spiritial death.

The other spiritual death is/will be by our own actions. If we do not repent from our sins, we will not be in the presence of God.

The Celestial Kingdom is the presence of God, those outside of it will not be in His presence. There are the Telestial and Terestial kingdoms that are not in the presence of God, but even so, are still kingdoms of glory.

[HeatherAnn]

We are currently in a state of spiritual death as we are not currenlty in the presence of God.

Because we'll never reach "perfection" in this life... we will always have a degree of spiritual death.

Some times I'm very healthy, in mind & body... which is related to spiritual health... other times, I struggle.

Yet, I think as we strive to do God's will (what's best in the big picture) - we are more alive in spirit & body.

RE: this topic...

We are commanded not to have other God's before God... & to not make graven images for purposes of worship.

Yet, I understand that it's easier to resonate to a personification of spirituality than the abstract, "I AM THAT I AM."

Still... those commandements were trying to teach us that we can only look within for spirituality, not externally.

"The kingdom of God cometh NOT with observation... the kingdom of God is within you." - Luke 17

[Jesterss]

We are currently in a state of spiritual death as we are not currenlty in the presence of God. This was a by-product of the fall of Adam.

To me, the fall of adam did not bring about spiritual death, rather it brought about a physical death, that the earth would be superior to us. From the dust we were made, to the dust we shall return. That's what God said when adam sinned. The body changed at that moment on. Spiritual death to me is to be eternally cut off from God. There are two separate deaths indicated in the bible. There is a physical and a spiritual. That much we know. And we also know that the physical is first, and spiritual is second. If we are spiritually cut off from God here on earth, how would we have a chance of even knowing God? That would be a recipe for disaster.

The atonement saves us all from this spiritial death.

I agree.

The other spiritual death is/will be by our own actions. If we do not repent from our sins, we will not be in the presence of God.

The Celestial Kingdom is the presence of God, those outside of it will not be in His presence. There are the Telestial and Terestial kingdoms that are not in the presence of God, but even so, are still kingdoms of glory.

This I have a hard time understanding. It conflicts with what I know. Where is it ever spoken of that there will be 2 spiritual deaths? If we do not accept God, that is our spiritual death. I think that much we agree upon. But then you believe that we've already experienced spiritual death because of Adam, yet we can experience it again. See, revelation 21:8 tells us that those who don't believe in God, will be tossed into the lake of fire, and this is the second death.

[Flyonthewall]

To me, the fall of adam did not bring about spiritual death, rather it brought about a physical death, that the earth would be superior to us. From the dust we were made, to the dust we shall return. That's what God said when adam sinned. The body changed at that moment on. Spiritual death to me is to be eternally cut off from God. There are two separate deaths indicated in the bible. There is a physical and a spiritual. That much we know. And we also know that the physical is first, and spiritual is second. If we are spiritually cut off from God here on earth, how would we have a chance of even knowing God? That would be a recipe for disaster.

The fall did indeed bring about physical death, but also brought about spritual death. Using the definition of death that I use, death is simply a separation, then you can see or at least understand why I would say we are in a state of spiritual death during our time on earth. But, this was never supposed to be permanent. Remember, Jesus was fore ordainded from before the foundation of the world to redeem us from the fall. What this does is remove any consequences that are out of our control...we are not punished for Adam's transgression...and in the end, the judgement we receive is according to our own actions.

God did not leave us with no way to get to know Him, He has always has always prepared prophets and teachings...AND a Savior.

I agree.

This I have a hard time understanding. It conflicts with what I know. Where is it ever spoken of that there will be 2 spiritual deaths? If we do not accept God, that is our spiritual death. I think that much we agree upon. But then you believe that we've already experienced spiritual death because of Adam, yet we can experience it again. See, revelation 21:8 tells us that those who don't believe in God, will be tossed into the lake of fire, and this is the second death.

I'm sure you do have a hard time understanding and it most likely does conflict as this is part of the differences in our beliefs. The bulk of the teaching is from modern day revelation and extra biblical scriptures. I would dare say it is a uniquely LDS teaching, because we believe we came from the presence of God, where most, if not all of the rest of Christianity does not.

Our current spiritual death is not due to our lack of belief, so does not conflict with Revelations.

[Jesterss]

The fall did indeed bring about physical death, but also brought about spritual death. Using the definition of death that I use, death is simply a separation, then you can see or at least understand why I would say we are in a state of spiritual death during our time on earth. But, this was never supposed to be permanent. Remember, Jesus was fore ordainded from before the foundation of the world to redeem us from the fall. What this does is remove any consequences that are out of our control...we are not punished for Adam's transgression...and in the end, the judgement we receive is according to our own actions.

God did not leave us with no way to get to know Him, He has always has always prepared prophets and teachings...AND a Savior.

So are there two spiritual life giving moments? You saying we are spiritually separated still tells me that you believe we cannot understand or have Gods spirit with us here on earth. I understand your definition of death and how it's one of separation, but that doesn't equate with spiritual death and being in it now. Being a believer, I do not believe I am spiritually dead from God. I believe in Him and Jesus so I believe that I have them with me. The Holy Ghost would be upon me as a believer. To know Jesus is to live. He even tells us this. We are not dead if we know Him. Our physical body is the only separation, that we still have the devil trying to deceive our humanly bodies and desires.

I'm sure you do have a hard time understanding and it most likely does conflict as this is part of the differences in our beliefs. The bulk of the teaching is from modern day revelation and extra biblical scriptures. I would dare say it is a uniquely LDS teaching, because we believe we came from the presence of God, where most, if not all of the rest of Christianity does not.

Our current spiritual death is not due to our lack of belief, so does not conflict with Revelations.

Based on some (little bit I have) knowledge of your faith, I'm assuming by coming from the presence of God, you are referring to the being of being spiritual children first? 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that the natural is first, then the spiritual.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Based on some (little bit I have) knowledge of your faith, I'm assuming by coming from the presence of God, you are referring to the being of being spiritual children first? 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that the natural is first, then the spiritual.

Actually no it does not.

44 It is sown a ^anatural body; it is raised a ^bspiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

All this verse says is that it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body. Nothing in here about a natural body first or that we did not live as spirits before this earth.

Anyway context of this chapter is all about the resurrection. So our physical body a natural body it will die, the next body will be alive by the spirit and will not die.

There is nothing in these verses talking about a preexistence or the lack there of. Consider Eccl 12:7

We should look at the preceeding verses of scripture too.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in ^acorruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in ^aglory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Context dictates Paul is specifically talking about the resurrection of the dead. Nothing else.

And verse 47 seals the deal.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

I would say that verse 47 sums up verse 44 more accurately.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Flyonthewall]

So are there two spiritual life giving moments? You saying we are spiritually separated still tells me that you believe we cannot understand or have Gods spirit with us here on earth.

Then I will tell you we can overcome our spiritual death through the atonement of Jesus Christ, and through obedience to the principles and ordinances of His gospel. At babtism we are reborn to a new person, and through continual obedience to the teachings of the gospel we overcome spiritual death. We receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost and take upon us His name, and He promises that we may have His spirit to be with us if we follow Him and repent of our sins.

This sums it up:

Our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord. …

Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death” Alma 42:7, 9

I understand your definition of death and how it's one of separation, but that doesn't equate with spiritual death and being in it now. Being a believer, I do not believe I am spiritually dead from God. I believe in Him and Jesus so I believe that I have them with me. The Holy Ghost would be upon me as a believer. To know Jesus is to live. He even tells us this. We are not dead if we know Him. Our physical body is the only separation, that we still have the devil trying to deceive our humanly bodies and desires. Based on some (little bit I have) knowledge of your faith, I'm assuming by coming from the presence of God, you are referring to the being of being spiritual children first? 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that the natural is first, then the spiritual.

Actually, being in the presence of God before we were born comes from Abraham 3:

Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast before thou wast born.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Flyonthewall