Orthodox Christians Are Atheists

[saemo]

And yet that is exactly what you are doing. You are describing Him as NOT having a human image. Even though He has said that you were created in His image. And that is the image that Christ revealed.

I go with what is Revealed in the Bible. Thanks.

God is not created in the image of man, man is created in the image of God.

[KevinG]

God is Spirit. Jesus is God Incarnate.

And yet I as a Mormon do not see fit to define Catholics as atheist. In fact I believe they are (despite differences in our doctrines) an inspired and Christ loving/following people.

How does that fit with Rob's assertion that a classic Mormon belief is that Orthodox Christians are Atheists? (Hint: it doesn't)

[Vance]

I go with what is Revealed in the Bible. Thanks.

I go by what God has reveal. Thanks.

God is not created in the image of man, man is created in the image of God.

So, we are in His image, which makes His image like ours. Thanks.

[saemo]

And yet I as a Mormon do not see fit to define Catholics as atheist. In fact I believe they are (despite differences in our doctrines) an inspired and Christ loving/following people.

How does that fit with Rob's assertion that a classic Mormon belief is that Orthodox Christians are Atheists? (Hint: it doesn't)

I've never come across a Mormon claiming Catholics are atheist, except in the post that Rob Bowman references in the OP.

But it is a very, very old argument. Pagans in Rome called Christians atheist for not believing in the pagan gods. I could view an assertion from Mormonism as the same thing, very easily. No, I don't believe in a false god, I believe in the One True God.

So I think LDS should be careful in what they are claiming. If a Mormon views our beliefs so different as believing in another God (that can't possibly exist), I can't say I'd disagree with the premise, ie, Mormons believing in a different God.

[Flyonthewall]

To me, calling Orthodox Christians as atheist is no better than Orthodox Christians calling LDS non-Christians. Each holds about the same validity.

Like the 5 blind men and the elephant, each describes the elephant in different ways, but fact of the matter is, they all have the same animal in mind.

[Pahoran]

Either way it's a belief in a previous life, like people who believe in reincarnation and imagine themselves as a maharaja. LDS speak in similar terms.

Call for references, please.

No LDS has ever spoken "in similar terms" in my hearing. Frankly, I think your all-pervasive ignorance of LDS life and teaching is showing again.

I mean God transcends what we all are.

The thought of God being a human just plain creeps me out (sorry). Humans fail, quite often. So either God fails, or people think they are God and cannot fail. I cannot accept either.

That's all right. LDS doctrine implies neither.

Not that you would know that, of course.

Regards,

Pahoran

[saemo]

The similarity in language is in the area of a previous life being partially remembered. LDS stories are usually of very young children who haven't quite forgotten everything, yet. Reincarnation are usually stories of people who remember living as someone else. Either way, it is a belief that a previous life was forgotten but sometimes, rarely, can be glimpsed in this life.

When you see in print, or hear these stories being related, they are similar and use similar language.

There are of course major differences, reincarnation is the belief that the same soul is incarnated many times, in many different earthly lives, as any living creature (mammal, bird, fish, insect, etc), the purposes to reincarnation are detachment and becoming. Pre-existence is the belief that a soul is incarnated once to a earthly life, as a human, the purpose to incarnation as a necessary step to becoming a god. (Except in the case of an unborn child who dies before being born, some Mormons holding a belief that spirit is incarnated again.)

By comparison, Christianity holds a belief that only one Person is Incarnate; God, who Incarnated as Man. The purpose of this Incarnation to restore to humanity what was lost through the sin of Adam and Eve. The soul of a human is created with the a person's body, not separate from it.

As to the perfection of humans who become gods, I know what LDS believe. Human nature can transcend that nature and become a god, but God does not transcend human nature. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

Hope that helps.

Edited October 2, 2011 by saemo

[Vance]

Just more assertion sans references.

So, technically the CFR remains open.

[Pahoran]

The similarity in language is in the area of a previous life being partially remembered. LDS stories are usually of very young children who haven't quite forgotten everything, yet. Reincarnation are usually stories of people who remember living as someone else. Either way, it is a belief that a previous life was forgotten but sometimes, rarely, can be glimpsed in this life.

When you see in print, or hear these stories being related, they are similar and use similar language.

No. They do not.

However, I will accept that you see them as similar.

I have observed that people who do not care to actually inform themselves, frequently fail to notice important distinctions when dealing with those they perceive as "other."

There are of course major differences, reincarnation is the belief that the same soul is incarnated many times, in many different earthly lives, as any living creature (mammal, bird, fish, insect, etc), the purposes to reincarnation are detachment and becoming. Pre-existence is the belief that a soul is incarnated once to a earthly life, as a human, the purpose to incarnation as a necessary step to becoming a god. (Except in the case of an unborn child who dies before being born, some Mormons holding a belief that spirit is incarnated again.)

By comparison, Christianity holds a belief that only one Person is Incarnate; God, who Incarnated as Man.

That's a false statement. Since LDS Christianity holds that all of God's mortal children are "incarnate," i.e. embodied in human form, it is therefore not true that there is only one view that "Christianity" takes on the subject.

I remind you again that the question of whether Mormonism is Christian has been definitively settled in our favour. If it is dishonest to pretend that an open controversy has been settled in your favour so that you can smuggle your assumptions into your argument, it is doubly dishonest to make such a pretense when the question is no longer controversial at all, and it is your opponents whose position has been established.

As to the perfection of humans who become gods, I know what LDS believe. Human nature can transcend that nature and become a god, but God does not transcend human nature. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

Of course it doesn't. But then, you worked very hard on your equivocation to make sure it would not. It would be a shame to waste all that effort.

Regards,

Pahoran

[saemo]

Just more assertion sans references.

So, technically the CFR remains open.

Children are experienced spirits who come to us for a reason.

Do you agree with this statement?

Edited October 4, 2011 by saemo

[LeSellers]

Children are experienced spirits who come to us for a reason.

Do you agree with this statement?

Unfortunately, this kind of gotcha question is all too frequent here.

Before I could answer, I'd have to know who said it and under what circumstances. I'd also like to know the most important part of the content: Why do you ask?

Lehi

[saemo]

Unfortunately, this kind of gotcha question is all too frequent here.

Before I could answer, I'd have to know who said it and under what circumstances. I'd also like to know the most important part of the content: Why do you ask?

Lehi

I'm not trying to "get" anyone, just letting Vance provide his own CFR.

I ask because, I did in fact get that quote from a website that explains/promotes reincarnation. The thing is, LDS relate the same kind of stories that believers in reincarnation do. Remembered past lives, describing dead relatives, souls/spirits are pre-existing before birth. Just, LDS and believers in reincarnation explain the reasons for these stories in a different way. Both hold a view that children possess a soul/spirit that is much older than the child is.

I don't have a problem with this at all. I don't have a problem with people who believe in reincarnation, or LDS who believe in a pre-existence. Believe what you will. All I'm saying is, it's "new agey" to me and not something I believe.

[saemo]

I remind you again that the question of whether Mormonism is Christian has been definitively settled in our favour. If it is dishonest to pretend that an open controversy has been settled in your favour so that you can smuggle your assumptions into your argument, it is doubly dishonest to make such a pretense when the question is no longer controversial at all, and it is your opponents whose position has been established.

Pahoran, no doubt, I see that the majority of LDS members seek to follow Christ. However, Mormonism itself is not a Christian religion. It's very foundation is a claim to something other than what has been handed on as Christian belief and understanding.

[Ares]

Pahoran, no doubt, I see that the majority of LDS members seek to follow Christ. However, Mormonism itself is not a Christian religion. It's very foundation is a claim to something other than what has been handed on as Christian belief and understanding.

saemo,

We expect posters here to respect your views as a Catholic and your contributions for explaining Catholic beliefs are valued. Someone making assertions that "Catholics are this, or are not that" would not be allowed.

Please provide some substance to your views. Just proclaiming Mormonism is not a Christian religion is "preaching" not discussing.

[KevinG]

A good summary on the differences between reincarnation and the LDS belief of pre-mortal existance...

Author: Palmer, Spencer J.

Reincarnation refers to a theory that one spirit (life or soul) passes from one material body to another through repeated births and deaths, usually of the same species, often with ethical implications; thus the present life is viewed as only one of many. This theory is rejected by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The idea of repeated return or of a continuing, exacting wheel of rebirth is based on the Eastern doctrine of karma. Karma literally means "deeds" or "actions" and, in a limited sense, may refer to a system of cause and effect. According to this belief, all inequalities of birth, society, race, and economic being are products of one's individual karma created by an accumulation of previous behavior. Karma is also seen as a cosmic law of justice. It is an eternally moving wheel of rebirth. Experience is repeatable. An individual spirit can live again and again in a wide variety of guises and forms in the mortal estate.

In Latter-day Saint doctrine, mankind is on the road to immortality and eternal life. One moves from one type of existence to another along the way. But this teaching is distinguishable from reincarnation on several counts:

1. In Latter-day Saint belief, there is only one physical death for any one person (Heb. 9:27). Amulek, in the Book of Mormon, taught that man can die only once (Alma 11:45). Reincarnation posits many deaths, but in Latter-day Saint thought, the resurrection (incarnation) follows death (cf. D&C 29:24-25).

2. In LDS theology, the physical body is sacred, and its elements are imperishable. The body is prerequisite to becoming like God. In reincarnation, the present physical body is of little or no consequence.

3. In LDS theology, mortality is a time to be tested and proved "to see if [people] will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them" (Abr. 3:25). In reincarnation, there are many future lives, so there is no urgent need to repent now. Reincarnation contradicts Amulek's admonition that "this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God" (Alma 34:32). The Prophet Joseph Smith said that transmigration of souls (spirits) was not a correct principle (TPJS, pp. 104-105).

4. In LDS theology, there is one single, unique historical act of redemption made by Jesus Christ. Through it, Christ becomes the only name under heaven "whereby man can be saved" (D&C 18:23). Reincarnation denies the absolute centrality of Christ's Atonement by affirming the theoretical existence of an abundance of equally miraculous deities, who appear in a variety of forms, born again and again.

Bibliography

Palmer, Spencer J., and Roger R. Keller. Religions of the World: A Latter-day Saint View. Provo, Utah, 1990.

Edited October 4, 2011 by DaddyG

[KevinG]

Some scriptures referring to our premortal existance as spirit children of our Heavenly Father... (I cheated and used the topical guide)

Bible

When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38:4–7

The spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:4–5

We are all his offspring, Acts 17:28

God chose us before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:3–4

We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9

The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, Jude 1:6 (Abr. 3:26).

The Devil and his angels were cast out, Rev. 12:9

Book of Mormon

They were called and prepared from the foundation of the world, Alma 13:3

Doctrine and Covenants (LDS)

Christ looked upon the expanse of eternity and hosts of heaven before the world was made, D&C 38:1

Man was also in the beginning with God, D&C 93:29 (Hel. 14:17; D&C 49:17).

Noble spirits were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church, D&C 138:53–55

Many received their first lessons in the world of spirits, D&C 138:56

Pearl of Great Price

All things were created spiritually before they were on earth, Moses 3:5

I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh, Moses 6:51

Abraham saw the intelligences that were organized before the world was, Abr. 3:21–24The life before earth life. All men and women lived with God as his spirit children before coming to the earth as mortal beings. This is sometimes called the first estate (Abr. 3:26).

[Calm]

Either way it's a belief in a previous life, like people who believe in reincarnation and imagine themselves as a maharaja. LDS speak in similar terms.r.

speaking in similar terms is meaningless unless one means the same thing. Of course you are familiar with the claim that catholicism and cannibalism are similar based on much the same idea. This comparison is of course as meaningless as the one you have made above.

The Vatican site uses the phrase "eating the flesh of Christ". Apparently "eating the flesh of God" or "eating God" would not have been an unusual phrase in the mouth of ban Aztec and today refers to mushroom eating among other pagan practices.

Edited October 4, 2011 by calmoriah

[saemo]

saemo,

We expect posters here to respect your views as a Catholic and your contributions for explaining Catholic beliefs are valued. Someone making assertions that "Catholics are this, or are not that" would not be allowed.

Please provide some substance to your views. Just proclaiming Mormonism is not a Christian religion is "preaching" not discussing.

Hello,

Sure, relative to this thread, which points out we don't believe in the same God. Christians believe in One True God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe there are numerous threads where LDS go through great lengths to show this is a false belief.

If two people do not even believe, or worship the same God, are they of the same religion? Does that mean, as an example, that Hindu's are Christians, because there is but One God, and they just worship and understand God in a different fashion? I have had one LDS person tell me that even atheists who view Jesus Christ in a favorable manner are technically Christian.

Then there are the numerous discussions on Christology. Which aligns to the discussion of the nature of God, but focused in on discussing the nature of the Person of Jesus Christ. LDS, again, refute Christian belief.

There are differences, which fall far beyond differences of practice, and align Mormonism to something that is not the Christian religion.

Certainly, I'm not saying so to create outsiders, as I do believe, we are all united in Christ, Christian and non-Christian alike.

Hope that helps.

[saemo]

speaking in similar terms is meaningless unless one means the same thing. Of course you are familiar with the claim that catholicism and cannibalism are similar based on much the same idea. This comparison is of course as meaningless as the one you have made above.

Indeed, and I understand completely the POV from outside of Catholicism, as I come from there, and did in fact say to a Catholic friend that He must be a vampire. (We were good friends at the time, and he returned the compliment by calling me a heathen, but ironically, me converting to Catholicism ended the friendship. He wanted a heathen friend, not a Catholic one.)

I think people here are taking comparative religious discussion as an insult, which is not my intent. For example, when speaking of the Incarnation of God, there are striking parallels in Hinduism, which I thought someone would point out.

I think this is also relevant to the discussion of Mormonism and Christianity...speaking in similar terms is meaningless. We do speak in similar terms, and at 30,000 feet it all looks the same. Move in closer, and flesh out the meaning of the similar terms, and there isn't much that is similar.

[Calm]

I think this is also relevant to the discussion of Mormonism and Christianity...speaking in similar terms is meaningless. We do speak in similar terms, and at 30,000 feet it all looks the same. Move in closer, and flesh out the meaning of the similar terms, and there isn't much that is similar.

You need to be clearer with your points if you were trying to make the one that similar terms may mean different ideas.

[saemo]

Some scriptures referring to our premortal existance as spirit children of our Heavenly Father... (I cheated and used the topical guide)

Hello, yes, Catholics have been reading the Bible for a long time, we don't ignore these scriptures, we do see them as telling us something different than what Mormons see....

When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38:4–7

This is speaking of angels.

The spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7

God gave us our spirit at birth, this says nothing of a pre-existence.

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:4–5

God is omnipresent. Another example of this is John 1:48.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

We are all his offspring, Acts 17:28

Doesn't say anything about a pre-existence.

God chose us before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:3–4

God is omnipresent, and again, doesn't say anything about a pre-existence.

We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9

Yes, He is the Father of spirits, having Created us and continues to nurture us. Nothing about a pre-existence.

The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, Jude 1:6 (Abr. 3:26).

Speaking of angels again, not humans.

The Devil and his angels were cast out, Rev. 12:9

Speaking of angels again, not humans.

As for the other quotes, I don't believe they are scripture. :-)

Edited October 4, 2011 by saemo

[saemo]

You need to be clearer with your points if you were trying to make the one that similar terms may mean different ideas.

OK.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

. If two people do not even believe, or worship the same God, are they of the same religion? Does that mean, as an example, that Hindu's are Christians, because there is but One God, and they just worship and understand God in a different fashion? I

This does not work. See, LDS believe in Jesus. Just as you believe in Jesus. Do we believe different things about him? Yeah. But he is

Jesus and that makes us both Christians. The reason why your Hindu analogy fails miserably is because Hindu's do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. That excludes them from the title of being Christian. Worship one or more Gods has nothing to do with who is and who is not Christian.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hello, yes, Catholics have been reading the Bible for a long time, we don't ignore these scriptures, we do see them as telling us something different than what Mormons see....

That much is obvious.

When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38:4–7

This is speaking of angels.

This is mere assertion. Thanks for playing. I do not think many scholars agree with you that the "Sons of God" are angles. The text does no use angle either. So try again.

The spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7

God gave us our spirit at birth, this says nothing of a pre-existence.

Tell me, how can you return to a place you have never been? That seems to run counter to your argument that "God gave us our spirit at birth". That is certainly not in the text nor even remotely implied. The fact that we are to return to God implies that we lived with him before we were born.

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:4–5

God is omnipresent. Another example of this is John 1:48.

Or perhaps would should just take this scripture literally. There is a new idea for you I know. God knew Jeremiah before he was born. That is a lot easier to accept then some twisted conpect that God is omnipresent.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

We are all his offspring, Acts 17:28

Doesn't say anything about a pre-existence.

So we are not really his offspring when it uses language to describe us as "His offspring". I guess if you turn a blind eye. You claim to read the bible. Do you understand it? I don't know how you could claim you do. The text is clear. But because it runs counter to your dogma you must twist it.

As for the other quotes, I don't believe they are scripture. :-)

You do not believe the bible is really scripture either. Because all you have done is tried to say what it doesn't say. I remain unconvinced.

And further more we do not care if you don't view them as scripture as this is an LDS discussion forum and we are replying to your asinine assertion that LDS believe in reincarnation. We can use what we believe as scripture to refute your assertion. Surely you see this. The audacity of some people.

[Ares]

That much is obvious.

This is mere assertion. Thanks for playing. I do not think many scholars agree with you that the "Sons of God" are angles. The text does no use angle either. So try again.

Tell me, how can you return to a place you have never been? That seems to run counter to your argument that "God gave us our spirit at birth". That is certainly not in the text nor even remotely implied. The fact that we are to return to God implies that we lived with him before we were born.

Or perhaps would should just take this scripture literally. There is a new idea for you I know. God knew Jeremiah before he was born. That is a lot easier to accept then some twisted conpect that God is omnipresent.

So we are not really his offspring when it uses language to describe us as "His offspring". I guess if you turn a blind eye. You claim to read the bible. Do you understand it? I don't know how you could claim you do. The text is clear. But because it runs counter to your dogma you must twist it.

You do not believe the bible is really scripture either. Because all you have done is tried to say what it doesn't say. I remain unconvinced.

And further more we do not care if you don't view them as scripture as this is an LDS discussion forum and we are replying to your asinine assertion that LDS believe in reincarnation. We can use what we believe as scripture to refute your assertion. Surely you see this. The audacity of some people.

Please try to omit the more confrontational language from your post. I have taken non-LDS to task on this and I expect our LDS posters to be as respectful if not more to non-LDS guests.