The Sabbath Day

[LeSellers]

Elsewhere we read:

the longer I'm in the church the more disturbed I get by differing interpretation on what constitutes Sabbath breaking and what doesn't. I think some of the most extremist examples of Mormon worship revolve around this. Some people are borderline sociopathic on what they'll do to avoid breaking the sabbath to the point of squeezing every bit of common sense and joy out of the day. Others are super strict about some things while doing other activities that aren't much different. How do these types of folklore and legends end up being so widely believed and accepted?

The Sabbath is an interesting issue though... I'm not sure what others expect of it... I would just do my best to live up to what God expects of you on it =). Ask him, and he just may tell you something about it.

I suspect the issue Auteur has is not with what God expects us to do, but what we perceive as what God expects us to do.

Aside from attending our Church meetings, we are expected to do ... what?

Obviously, anything we would not do any other day of the week, things that are forbidden anyway, we wouldn't do on the Sabbath, either. Some things we do those other days are completely acceptable on the Sabbath, as well.

29 And the inhabitants of Zion shall also observe the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

Let's not quibble about whether it is only the people in "Zion" who must observe the Sabbath day. If we stand in holy places, we are in Zion. Temples, even stake centers, are holy places. 'Nuf sed.

9 And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day; 10 For verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High; 11 Nevertheless thy vows shall be offered up in righteousness on all days and at all times; 12 But remember that on this, the Lord's day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, confessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord. 13 And on this day thou shalt do none other thing, only let thy food be prepared with singleness of heart that thy fasting may be perfect, or, in other words, that thy joy may be full.

14 Verily, this is fasting and prayer, or in other words, rejoicing and prayer.

15 And inasmuch as ye do these things with thanksgiving, with cheerful hearts and countenances, not with much laughter, for this is sin, but with a glad heart and a cheerful countenance—16 Verily I say, that inasmuch as ye do this, the fulness of the earth is yours, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which climbeth upon the trees and walketh upon the earth; 17 Yea, and the herb, and the good things which come of the earth, whether for food or for raiment, or for houses, or for barns, or for orchards, or for gardens, or for vineyards; 18 Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart; 19 Yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul.

So aside from preparing our food (an interesting comment when coupled with "thy fasting be made perfect")—which I believe is do the things necessary to maintain life—we are to observe the stricture in v. 13: "And on this day thou shalt do none other thing". Is there another way to read it? So, what was the thing other-than-which we are to do nothing (food, etc., aside)?

• Go to the house of prayer (v. 9)
• Offer up sacraments — partake of the sacraments (having offered the required sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit. (vv. 8, 9, 12)
• Rest from our labors (v. 10)
• Pay devotions to Most High (v. 10)
• Offer oblations to the Most High (v. 12)
• confess sins to brethren and before the Lord (v. 12)
• Prepare food with singleness of heart

That's it. We are to do nothing else on His holy day, i.e., the Sabbath, i.e., Sunday (in most places around the world).
What are the benefits? The list is quite long.

• keep ourselves unspotted from the world (v. 9)
• the fulness of the earth, including animals and birds for our food (v.16)
• the herb, and other good things from the earth for our food, clothing, or shelter; and even to create wealth (v.17)
• all things which come of the earth(v. 17)

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

I can only assume that if we do not obey the Law of the Sabbath, that the Lord cannot bless us with the good things He promised when we do. It seems immaterial what we want to do on the Sabbath if it is not in accordance with the mind and will of the Lord.

If you want the blessings, you observe the law on which that blessing is predicated. There is no other way.

Lehi

[Balzer]

"If you want the blessings, you observe the law on which that blessing is predicated. There is no other way. "

What Law?

Respectfully,

Balzer

[keith_brian]

If you're following the example from the Old Testament, then technically shouldn't you be killing people who break the Sabbath anyway? (Num. 15:35-36), (Ex. 31:14-15)

Since you're not following the letter of the law from the scriptures as to what the Sabbath is all about anyway, I would guess that it's pretty open to interpretation. Therefore, I say that if a man is a believer in the Biblical god and he feels good doing something on the Christian Sabbath, then he should be left alone to do that thing.

Even when I was a Mormon, I was always annoyed with the amount of judgement associated with certain activities on Sunday. It's as if many people who are members of the church (alleged to be the one true path to happiness) weren't happy just following the Christian Sabbath as they saw fit but actually had to get nosey about what others around them were doing too.

Shouldn't the exact details of whether something is permissible on the Christian Sabbath be left as a private matter between that person and their god? I mean, if God really has a problem with it, I suppose he could always put out a PSA or something. Or, maybe he could just hit them with a lightning bolt.

[LeSellers]

If you're following the example from the Old Testament, then technically shouldn't you be killing people who break the Sabbath anyway? (Num. 15:35-36), (Ex. 31:14-15)

Sorry, did I quote the Old Testament anywhere? [Looking, looking ...] Eh, no I did not.

Since you're not following the letter of the law from the scriptures as to what the Sabbath is all about anyway, I would guess that it's pretty open to interpretation. Therefore, I say that if a man is a believer in the Biblical god and he feels good doing something on the Christian Sabbath, then he should be left alone to do that thing.

Well, at least we know what you think. It's even better that we know what God currently thinks, don't you agree?

Even when I was a Mormon, I was always annoyed with the amount of judgement associated with certain activities on Sunday. It's as if many people who are members of the church (alleged to be the one true path to happiness) weren't happy just following the Christian Sabbath as they saw fit but actually had to get nosey about what others around them were doing too.

You're entitled to an opinion. That it happens to be a prejudiced one, and false on its face is not trivial, but it's understandable.

Shouldn't the exact details of whether something is permissible on the Christian Sabbath be left as a private matter between that person and their god? I mean, if God really has a problem with it, I suppose he could always put out a PSA or something. Or, maybe he could just hit them with a lightning bolt.

If you ever were LDS, you'd know that this is not the way God works. If you were ever Christian, the same would apply.

Lehi

Edited August 28, 2011 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

If you want the blessings, you observe the law on which that blessing is predicated. There is no other way.

What Law?

I quoted the Law in the OP. The Lord first established, as far as we know, the Law of the Sabbath before Adam was set in the Garden of Eden. He re-iterated it several times, once on Sinai, again in our modern times.

Lehi

[Calm]

So, what was the thing other-than-which we are to do nothing (food, etc., aside)?

• Go to the house of prayer (v. 9)
• Offer up sacraments — partake of the sacraments (having offered the required sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit. (vv. 8, 9, 12)
• Rest from our labors (v. 10)
• Pay devotions to Most High (v. 10)
• Offer oblations to the Most High (v. 12)
• confess sins to brethren and before the Lord (v. 12)
• Prepare food with singleness of heart

That's it. We are to do nothing else on His holy day, i.e., the Sabbath, i.e., Sunday (in most places around the world).

Don't see going on computer and discussing things on message boards in that list....am assuming it's Sunday where you are now, L.

[keith_brian]

Sorry, did I quote the Old Testament anywhere? [Looking, looking ...] Eh, no I did not.

For some reason, the inconvenient parts of the Bible get forgotten in situations like this. It's kind of like it's scripture ... but then it's not. Strange.

Well, at least we know what you think. It's even better that we know what God currently thinks, don't you agree?

Which god? Thor?

I agree: it's very important to know what Thor thinks of the issue of the Sabbath

You're entitled to an opinion. That it happens to be a prejudiced one, and false on its face is not trivial, but it's understandable.

Says you ...

If you ever were LDS, you'd know that this is not the way God works. If you were ever Christian, the same would apply.

Lehi

Or, maybe, just maybe, he never hits anyone with lighting bolts because he is not actually there ...

[TAO]

For some reason, the inconvenient parts of the Bible get forgotten in situations like this. It's kind of like it's scripture ... but then it's not. Strange.

Old Law / New Law perhaps? Cultural tradition perhaps? Many explanations indeed =).

Says you ...

The way you posted, it seemed as if you weren't taking Lehi seriously. That is why he is not responding fully.

Or, maybe, just maybe, he never hits anyone with lighting bolts because he is not actually there ...

You can believe that if you'd like. As for me, I'll believe there is a God. And a just one, at that.

Also... your analogy wasn't all that good... didn't you know that there is a guy who has gotten struck by lightning several times and survived? Not that it at all relates to the thread though. But being struck by lightning does happen.

Edited August 29, 2011 by TAO

[keith_brian]

Old Law / New Law perhaps? Cultural tradition perhaps? Many explanations indeed =).

No, probably not. I mean, since one of the major justifications for what LS said was a reaffirmation of the law from Siani, then why not look at ALL of the OT writings, including the part where Sabbath breakers get killed.

Consequently, many other Christian sects take the words of Jesus from the NT as a loosening on the laws surrounding the Sabbath -- the whole idea that "The Sabbath was made for man, not man the Sabbath." So, I think that if we were to take the "New Law" approach (where we conveniently forget the parts of the "Old Law" we don't like), then I still think the whole point of LS's post disappears.

The way you posted, it seemed as if you weren't taking Lehi seriously.

Even when I was a Mormon, I had a hard time taking people seriously that make a huge deal of what is permissible or not permissible on the Sabbath. Much like the issue of how many ear rings a girl wears, I think there are bigger fish to fry in the world.

You can believe that if you'd like. As for me, I'll believe there is a God. And a just one, at that.

I try to govern my life based on evidence, not belief. Therefore, I reject the notion of belief in a god, just as I reject the notion of belief in the Tooth Fairy. There is no evidence for the existence of either.

Also... didn't you know that there is a guy who has gotten struck by lightning several times and survived? Not that it at all relates to the thread though.

As you said, it really has nothing to do with this thread -- or with whether or not god(s) exist.

[LeSellers]

Don't see going on computer and discussing things on message boards in that list....am assuming it's Sunday where you are now,

4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

If you, like me, accept that defending The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and His Gospel against villainy is "good", then what I did yesterday is a good use of the Sabbath.

Lehi

[thesometimesaint]

I don't believe in becoming pharisaical about it.

[bluebell]

If you, like me, accept that defending The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and His Gospel against villainy is "good", then what I did yesterday is a good use of the Sabbath.

Lehi

So, what your saying is that a certain amount of personal interpretation regarding the scriptures on keeping the Sabbath day holy is acceptable.

You also seem to be saying that whether or not someone else agrees with our interpretation (whether or not THEY believe we are breaking the Sabbath) is irrelevant.

If that is what you are saying, then i agree with that.

[Senator]

If you, like me, accept that defending The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and His Gospel against villainy is "good", then what I did yesterday is a good use of the Sabbath.

Lehi

*SNORT*

I love apologetics!!

[LeSellers]

I mean, since one of the major justifications for what LS said was a reaffirmation of the law from Siani, then why not look at ALL of the OT writings, including the part where Sabbath breakers get killed.

If you're going to cite me, quote me correctly. Please check again, as I did not cite Exodus (or Deuteronomy) as a basis for the Law of the Sabbath, and would not do so ever to make the case it is required of us, today. The Law of the Sabbath long pre-dated Moses.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

I did not say that the Law of the Sabbath was a reiteration of the Law given on Sinai. I carefully avoided saying that because it is not true.

What I said was that the Law of the Sabbath was, as far as we know, first established before Adam was put into the Garden (you know: God rested from His labors, see above), then reiterated it on Sinai (where, although I did not say it, He added specific punishments to the basic Law, punishments which were not included in the original—nor in the current application), and that He reitereated it yet again in modern times.

The Law of the Sabbath is that we "rest from [our] labors", in imitation of God's resting from His. I personally believe that the Law of the Rest (a direct translation of the word "Sabbath") is eternal, meaning it is part of what God is, and that He gave us this law so we could become more like Him. Sabbaths occur in the Celestial Kingdom, just as they (are supposed to) do here.

Paul explicitly said the Law of Carnal Commandments, the Law of "Moses", was given as a pedagogue, a teacher/trainer to bring us to Christ. The "harsh" punishments attached to the Law of Moses were as strict as they were because God intended this training to be completely absorbed in and by His people. The Law of Moses was fulfilled in Cjrist's Atonement, and we have no need to observe its strictures any more, but that does not mean, in the least, that we should ignore the laws given prior to Sinai, as the Law of the Sabbath had been, and evne less reason to break those given in the current dispensation.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

So, what your saying is that a certain amount of personal interpretation regarding the scriptures on keeping the Sabbath day holy is acceptable.

Of course. Everything is subject to personal interpretation. The scriptures do not truly "say" anything. However there are some interpretations that are far too "inclusive": they lie wholly outside of any reasonable interpretation. For instance, there are people who believe that worshiping at the altar of the NFL or MLB is "good", so they do not use the Sabbath exclusively to worship God, but to worship Coors, the god of the pigskin, or Captain Morgan, the god of the horsehide. There are a myriad of other gods out there, too: Slalom, the god of waterskiing; TurtleWax, the god of the carwash, Pisces and Bearclaw, the gods of fishing, etc.

You also seem to be saying that whether or not someone else agrees with our interpretation (whether or not THEY believe we are breaking the Sabbath) is irrelevant.

Close. Not totally irrelevant, because there are limits beyond which there is no pretending one is obeying the Law of the Sabbath, as I noted above.

I am of the school that interprets the Law of the Sabbath like the proverbial applicant for the job of wagon driver, who, when asked how close he could get the whell of the wagon to the edge of a cliff, replied, "As far way as possible." Others may like to get half of the rim over the lip; I am not comfortable there.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

I don't believe in becoming pharisaical about [obeying the Law of the Sabbath].

Nor do I. The Sabbath was made for us, we were not made for it.

As I said earlier, however, there are interpretations that lie well outside of the spirit of the law.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

I try to govern my life based on evidence, not belief. Therefore, I reject the notion of belief in a god, just as I reject the notion of belief in the Tooth Fairy. There is no evidence for the existence of either.

There is quite a bit of evidence for the Tooth Fairy, just not in the way she is typcally portrayed.

I wish we had a "delete Rep Point" button, because I just accidentally wasted one on your messsage.

Lehi

Edited August 29, 2011 by LeSellers

[thesometimesaint]

Lehi:

I'm pretty generous when it comes to interpretations. When your A** is in the mire on the Sabbath pull it out.

Edited August 29, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[LeSellers]

I'm pretty generous when it comes to interpretations. When your A** is in the mire on the Sabbath pull it out.

As long as you don't train him to jump in the canal on the Sabbath, you're okeh.

Lehi

[Zakuska]

So aside from preparing our food (an interesting comment when coupled with "thy fasting be made perfect")—which I believe is do the things necessary to maintain life—we are to observe the stricture in v. 13: "And on this day thou shalt do none other thing". Is there another way to read it? So, what was the thing other-than-which we are to do nothing (food, etc., aside)?

• Go to the house of prayer (v. 9)
• Offer up sacraments — partake of the sacraments (having offered the required sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit. (vv. 8, 9, 12)
• Rest from our labors (v. 10)
• Pay devotions to Most High (v. 10)
• Offer oblations to the Most High (v. 12)
• confess sins to brethren and before the Lord (v. 12)
• Prepare food with singleness of heart

That's it. We are to do nothing else on His holy day, i.e., the Sabbath, i.e., Sunday (in most places around the world).

I think we could add to this list, Health Care related professions with all the heeling he and his apostles did on the Sabbath.

[Zakuska]

I think we might want to add this to the conversation.

Jeremiah 17

19 ¶Thus said the Lord unto me; Go and stand in the gate of the children of the people, whereby the kings of Judah come in, and by the which they go out, and in all the gates of Jerusalem;

20 And say unto them, Hear ye the word of the Lord, ye kings of Judah, and all Judah, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, that enter in by these gates:

21 Thus saith the Lord; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;

22 Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

Sabbath breaking by caravaning on the sabbath was one of Israels failings.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Zakuska

[LeSellers]

I think we could add to this list, Health Care related professions with all the heeling he and his apostles did on the Sabbath.

Certainly we could extend the list. Your allusion is what I pointed to here; and which I quote again:

4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

Pharmacists, police officers, firemen, and other emergency responders. I was, for twenty-one years, a soldier. We should be there, too, along with our naval and air counterparts. But Ice Rink or swimming pool attendants? Restaurants could easily be closed: our food can be prepared with more sigleness of heart at home than in the back of Mickey D's or Chez Antoine. There are few reasons for a fuel station to be open on the Sabbath, becuase people can buy gasoline and Diesel fuel on Saturday as easily as on Sunday.

I did not mean either list to be exclusive, nor to imply the one you quoted contained the totality of things one could do on the Sabbath. The intent was to get a discussion going about the "spirit" of the Law of the Sabbath. There are a host of scriptures that deal with the two aspects of Sabbath observance, both obedience and blessings (which few seem to refer to). I quoted only two sources. There are others.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

I think we might want to add this to the conversation.

Jeremiah 17

19 ¶Thus said the Lord unto me; Go and stand in the gate of the children of the people, whereby the kings of Judah come in, and by the which they go out, and in all the gates of Jerusalem;

20 And say unto them, Hear ye the word of the Lord, ye kings of Judah, and all Judah, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, that enter in by these gates:

21 Thus saith the Lord; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;

22 Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

Sabbath breaking by caravaning on the sabbath was one of Israels failings.

The consequences of Sabbath breaking and the blessings of Sabbath observance are things we should discuss.

I recall two incidents where the Prophet called on the people to pay more heed to the Law of the Sabbath. One was to end a drought, the other to end a flood. Because, as the Doctrine and Covenants passages I cited earlier, Sabbath observance results in our obtaining the blessings of food, clothing and shelter.

Paul said that "Honor thy father and thy mother" was the first commandment with a promise. He was technically right (this is the one where the promise was included in the Ten Commandments itself), but the promise that comes with the IV is powerful, too. And so are the blessings. The Law of the Sabbath, like many other parts of the Law of Moses is a carry over from earlier commandments (like the levirate marriage and sacrifice). The blessings that come from following these commandments include all of those promised in the Bible, Old and New Testaments, as well as those found in other scripture, even if the methods of observance differ somewhat.

Lehi

Edited August 29, 2011 by LeSellers

[Zakuska]

Certainly we could extend the list. Your allusion is what I pointed to here; and which I quote again:

Pharmacists, police officers, firemen, and other emergency responders. I was, for twenty-one years, a soldier. We should be there, too, along with our naval and air counterparts. But Ice Rink or swimming pool attendants? Restaurants could easily be closed: our food can be prepared with more sigleness of heart at home than in the back of Mickey D's or Chez Antoine. There are few reasons for a fuel station to be open on the Sabbath, becuase people can buy gasoline and Diesel fuel on Saturday as easily as on Sunday.

I did not mean either list to be exclusive, nor to imply the one you quoted contained the totality of things one could do on the Sabbath. The intent was to get a discussion going about the "spirit" of the Law of the Sabbath. There are a host of scriptures that deal with the two aspects of Sabbath observance, both obedience and blessings (which few seem to refer to). I quoted only two sources. There are others.

Lehi

This one gets kind of gray and fuzzy. Because even Jesus ate out on the Sabbath.

Luke 6

1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.

2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;

4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?

5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

His hommies plucking and ate the corn while traveling. Some where in the OT, I can't seem to find it right now. But the Lord commands them to setup cornfields (yes grain i know) by the highways so that the travellers who pass through can stop and eat. Yes the travellers are the ones doing the picking and eating but, the Lord commanded them to be planted and open to the travelling public 24/7.

EDIT: This is close...

Deut 23

24 ¶When thou comest into thy neighbour’s vineyard, then thou mayest eat grapes thy fill at thine own pleasure; but thou shalt not put any in thy vessel.

25 When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand; but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour’s standing corn.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Zakuska

[seriously honestly]

This one gets kind of gray and fuzzy. Because even Jesus ate out on the Sabbath.

Luke 6

1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.

2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;

4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?

5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

His hommies plucking and ate the corn while traveling. Some where in the OT, I can't seem to find it right now. But the Lord commands them to setup cornfields (yes grain i know) by the highways so that the travellers who pass through can stop and eat. Yes the travellers are the ones doing the picking and eating but, the Lord commanded them to be planted and open to the travelling public 24/7.

EDIT: This is close...

Deut 23

24 ¶When thou comest into thy neighbour’s vineyard, then thou mayest eat grapes thy fill at thine own pleasure; but thou shalt not put any in thy vessel.

25 When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand; but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour’s standing corn.

I went to reply and then saw you already found the verse, but on a sidenote, please don't refer to Christ's disciples as "hommies".