HiJolly Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 Except that it is a bit more than that. It is more like the sons of Mosiah mentioned in Alma 17:2-3.ROFL. You amaze me. HiJolly 2
zerinus Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 ROFL. You amaze me. HiJollyOkay, I am really amazed now.
Calm Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) BTW: The question I asked in the OP was not whether Apostle Widtsoe was right or wrong, but whether his opinion could be reconciled with certain passages in the Book of Mormon (and it would seem some think it can be.)Have you read D&C 19? That may help with how some reconcile the idea.http://lds.org/scrip.../dc/19?lang=engThere is also the idea (from the book Mormon Doctrine IIRC) that the everlasting aspect of the punishment in verse 16 is that it is always in existence, but the duration of the 'time' individuals spend there suffering for their (ultimately) finite sins is also finite.This might help: http://www.lightplan...fe/hell_eom.htmand: http://www.lightplan...rdition_eom.htmIt has been suggested that in the absence of the life-sustaining powers of God's Spirit, sons of perdition will eventually become disorganized and return to "native element" (JD 1:349-52; 5:271; 7:358-59). However, scripture declares that "the soul can never die" (Alma 12:20) and that in the Resurrection the spirit and the body are united "never to be divided" (Alma 11:45; cf. 12:18; D&C 93:33). The ultimate fate of sons of perdition will be made known only to those who are partakers thereof and will not be definitely revealed until the last judgment (D&C 29:27-30; 43:33; 76:43-48; TPJS, p. 24).Since the end of such has not revealed, I believe that those who interpret the scriptural teachings as ending in the disorganizing of the spirit and body are not teaching false doctrine, but currently unknowable doctrine and that while it appears to contradict what is taught in the BoM, that using other doctrine taught in the D&C I linked to above, that one can reconcile the teachings without having to reject either scripture.Not on topic, but may be interesting: http://www.lightplan...urnings_eom.htm as well as a page listing the various concepts involved in the Afterlife: http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/afterlife/index.htm****The Encyclopedia of Mormonism which the above are quoted from is not official doctrine, but probably as close to 'normative' of LDS beliefs that one can get these days outside of actual doctrine. Edited August 21, 2011 by calmoriah 1
zerinus Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 Since the end of such has not revealed, I believe that those who interpret the scriptural teachings as ending in the disorganizing of the spirit and body are not teaching false doctrine, but currently unknowable doctrine and that while it appears to contradict what is taught in the BoM, that using other doctrine taught in the D&C I linked to above, that one can reconcile the teachings without having to reject either scripture.That is positively incorrect. According to the Book of Mormon the spirit of man cannot dies physically (or “disorganized,” which would amount to the same thing):Alma 42:9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.
inquiringmind Posted August 21, 2011 Author Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) That is positively incorrect. According to the Book of Mormon the spirit of man cannot dies physically (or “disorganized,” which would amount to the same thing):Alma 42:9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.Something seems to be missing here.Doesn't D&C 93:33-34 say "...spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when seperated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy"?So unless their spirits are seperated from the elements of their bodies, it would seem the SOP's would experience a "fulness of joy."You're not suggesting that's possible, are you zerinus?P.S. I am interested in how those who tend to agree with Widtsoe would understand Alma 42:9,16. Edited August 21, 2011 by inquiringmind
zerinus Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 Something seems to be missing here.Doesn't D&C 93:33-34 say "...spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when seperated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy"?So unless their spirits are seperated from the elements of their bodies, it would seem the SOP's would experience a "fulness of joy."You're not suggesting that's possible, are you zerinus?That is talking about a different kind of thing entirely. It is talking about the separation of the spirit and body that takes place when natural death occurs. Those people were talking about the dissolution of the spirit itself, which is an utterly false doctrine and has no scriptural basis.P.S. I am interested in how those who tend to agree with Widtsoe would understand Alma 42:9,16.I wouldn't waste my time with them, if I were you!
CV75 Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) P.S. I am interested in how those who tend to agree with Widtsoe would understand Alma 42:9,16.I don’t necessarily agree (or better stated, understand) Elder Widtsoe’s quote, but I can see how it works with the verses in Alma 42:Verse 9 is about the accountable spirits that enter this world. The soul (in this case a synonym for spirit) never dies. Yet the spirit also experiences a spiritual death by being cut off from the presence of the Lord. This means the spirit simultaneously lives and dies; it dies qualitatively but not quantitatively and it lives quantitatively but not qualitatively. This condition continues until such occasion the spirit is reclaimed through the Redemption.When “time is no longer” the spirit remains with only the qualitative aspect as manifest in the glory of that spirit.Verse 16: The life of the soul (spirit) is eternal from a quantitative standpoint (it is of indeterminate duration according to the spirit’s perception of time, which in turn is according to the measurements in place on the planet upon which it resides) but not qualitatively (it cannot bear the presence of God without a glorified body). Punishment is as eternal as the life of the soul, which means it too is a) of indeterminate duration according to the measurement of time on the planet upon which its recipient resides and b) matching the recipient’s level of intolerance for God’s presence. This is opposite to the plan of happiness, which is also of indeterminate duration according to the measurement of time on the planet upon which its recipient resides and matches the recipient’s level of intolerance for God’s presence. This is how God’s life is eternal life, God’s punishment is eternal punishment, and so forth.[Not to sidetrack, but the term “time is no longer” may have some implications on this subject. It may refer to the change in reckoning from one planet (or planet class, e.g. Millennium), to another, until the “reckoning of the Lord’s time” which seems to be unrelated to a planet. God’s residence is described as a “throne” or a “place” and not a planet, and “a great Urim and Thummim” (D&C 130: 8 ). This leaves it open that it is not a planet with a reckoning of time, but that it is some other reckoning, “the Lord’s time,” and anything related to a planet, even Kolob, is inferior to it and reserved for those spirits under probation (Abraham 3:9). When such a change to a higher reckoning is imposed, the spirit becomes unable to operate, and this is how Satan (and those like him) are bound “when time is no longer” (D&C 84:100; 88:110)].Elder Widtsoe talks about the disorganization of a spiritual body, not a spirit body--he may be distinguishing between a spirit that never dies quantitatively (spirit body) and a spirit that dies qualitatively (spiritual body). The disorganization of a spiritual body would not entail the utter recycling of the spirit body/spirit matter, but simply place the spirit body back into a position of starting over, perhaps including a state of forgetfulness so as to properly go through the paces more successfully, as Christ did in the eternities before the Great Council. It may entail a change in its reckoning of time, so that its qualitative continuation is disrupted and it must start over in another reckoning. In this sense, the spirit dies quantitatively in one inferior reckoning (therefore still quantitatively alive as ever in God’s reckoning) but is “reborn” into another inferior reckoning where a new qualitative experience can commence.So I can see how such a person can find such ideas compatible with the Book of Mormon. Edited August 21, 2011 by CV75 1
jo1952 Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 Have you read D&C 19? That may help with how some reconcile the idea.http://lds.org/scrip.../dc/19?lang=engThere is also the idea (from the book Mormon Doctrine IIRC) that the everlasting aspect of the punishment in verse 16 is that it is always in existence, but the duration of the 'time' individuals spend there suffering for their (ultimately) finite sins is also finite.This might help: http://www.lightplan...fe/hell_eom.htmand: http://www.lightplan...rdition_eom.htmSince the end of such has not revealed, I believe that those who interpret the scriptural teachings as ending in the disorganizing of the spirit and body are not teaching false doctrine, but currently unknowable doctrine and that while it appears to contradict what is taught in the BoM, that using other doctrine taught in the D&C I linked to above, that one can reconcile the teachings without having to reject either scripture.Not on topic, but may be interesting: http://www.lightplan...urnings_eom.htm as well as a page listing the various concepts involved in the Afterlife: http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/afterlife/index.htm****The Encyclopedia of Mormonism which the above are quoted from is not official doctrine, but probably as close to 'normative' of LDS beliefs that one can get these days outside of actual doctrine.What got me thinking about what I have already shared in my previous post was the following passage:Revelation 21:8 (emphasis added) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.We have been involved in an in-depth study of the Book of Revelation (fascinating!) and when I was really looking at this verse, I kept getting stuck on the word "part". I was wondering if this meant that even those who are thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone might actually only do so for an amount of time which corresponded with their own reconciliation with their actions, etc, which tied in with the second death; we had already begun to consider the second death as being something that may have been in existence from the foundation of the world, and perhaps has been in use for all of the worlds which have been created. About that time, we were also rereading the D&C from cover to cover, and when we got to D&C 19, we "saw" much more than we had ever seen before!! Suddenly many pieces started to fall into place.Now, upon reading your links, they merely confirm where our personal studying has been leading us. So, I thank you very much for the time you took to provide the links. I am looking forward to having a chance to study the additional informational links you provided as well.Best regards,jo 1
zerinus Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 Elder Widtsoe talks about the disorganization of a spiritual body, not a spirit body--he may be distinguishing between a spirit that never dies quantitatively (spirit body) and a spirit that dies qualitatively (spiritual body). The disorganization of a spiritual body would not entail the utter recycling of the spirit body/spirit matter, but simply place the spirit body back into a position of starting over, perhaps including a state of forgetfulness so as to properly go through the paces more successfully, as Christ did in the eternities before the Great Council.But that is not how it was understood though by those early saints who invented the idea in the first place. They meant by it a physical disintegration of the spirit body, not unlike the physical disintegration of the natural body that takes place in the grave after death.And in any case, I think you are entering into uncharted waters trying to reconstruct the course of events in the "eternities before the great council," about which nothing has been revealed. It has not been revealed in fact to anyone the final state of the "sons of perdition" (D&C 76:47-48; 29:29-30).
jo1952 Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 Something seems to be missing here.Doesn't D&C 93:33-34 say "...spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when seperated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy"?So unless their spirits are seperated from the elements of their bodies, it would seem the SOP's would experience a "fulness of joy."You're not suggesting that's possible, are you zerinus?P.S. I am interested in how those who tend to agree with Widtsoe would understand Alma 42:9,16.I love this stype of discussion! I have some thoughts I'll share - of course, I know that none of what I am going to say is "doctrine" - but I do not think my reasoning has led me off of any cliffs so that they are not possible without contradicting scripture. First of all, not every passage in any canon completely describes any single teaching or idea about an aspect of the Kingdom of God. We get pieces of each puzzle by studying ALL of scripture. Therefore, what is written in Alma 42 is not necessarily the 100% complete picture or understanding about this subject. Another thought that comes to mind is that "soul" and "spirit" may not be completely interchangeable whenever they are used. Also, would the disorganization of our "spirit" equate to "spiritual" death? When we were intelligences we still existed; I am quite sure that since God's being exists in a spiritual realm. Since we co-existed with Him while we were still in the form of "intelligence", then we would still exist in His spiritual realm if we do get disorganized back into our original state of being. Therefore, we have not really died "spiritually" - even though the "spirit" form of our being has been destroyed. Since it is God's desire and purpose to bring about the eternal life of ALL of us, I think His purposes WILL be achieved. This achievement may just take on different aspects of us being able to get there than what we are now able to see while we are in the flesh. As such, I do not see how even a son of perdition will be written off in an eternally permanent way. Of course, even in my own feeble and singular and naive earthly being, it is my hope that even satan and his followers may, at some future place, in some other world, may eventually repent (assuming they will be allowed to do so) and be able to return to Heavenly Father so that even ALL of the intelligences that have existed in the eternities may find peace and happiness, and receive a fullness of joy with Father in a form which allows them to be able to do so. I have no idea what this might even look like. However, since even the numbers of the worlds are innumberable, which is incomprehensible to me at this moment, I believe that all things are still possible with the most High God. Best regards,jo 1
Whiskeypete Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) We're very quick to ascribe a human understanding of time to event outside of our mortal realm. I don't have any problem with the idea of suffering for eternity and then having something else happeningIn look at it the same as Christ going to the Garden, suffering an infinite and eternal punishment as part of the Atonement, and then enduring the rest of the events of the arrest and ultimately sealing His Atonement on the cross.It may have taken an Eternity for Him, but those waiting with him only experienced a few hours in mortal time. Edited August 21, 2011 by Whiskeypete 1
Calm Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) It has not been revealed in fact to anyone the final state of the "sons of perdition" (D&C 76:47-48; 29:29-30).Which is why I find your confidence strange in declaring Elder Widtsoe's position as definitively wrong. Edited August 22, 2011 by calmoriah
inquiringmind Posted August 22, 2011 Author Posted August 22, 2011 Which is why I find your confidence in declaring Elder Widtsoe's position as definitively wrong.Which is why you find it questionable?
Calm Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 Which is why you find it questionable?Yep....should not try to type on a laptop while lying down in bed.
inquiringmind Posted August 22, 2011 Author Posted August 22, 2011 Yep....should not try to type on a laptop while lying down in bed.I thought that's what you meant (and I was thinking the same thing.)Thank you.
jo1952 Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) Which is why you find it questionable?It seems to me, that inasmuch as not everything concerning the final state of the sons of perdition has NOT been revealed (in canon), then how can anyone claim that the ponderings of Elder Widtsoe are even "definitely" wrong? I typed that sitting up..... In fact, who is to say what HAS been revealed to someone, which may not have yet been revealed to another, is false simply because a Prophet hasn't told us about it? It is the Holy Ghost who leads to all truth; not a Prophet of God. The Holy Ghost is the authority; the Prophet is a tool.Regards,jo Edited August 22, 2011 by jo1952
zerinus Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 Which is why I find your confidence strange in declaring Elder Widtsoe's position as definitively wrong.Because it is definitively contradicted by the scriptures cited.
Calm Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 Because it is definitively contradicted by the scriptures cited.Typed on the laptop again (our central AC isn't working, thus I am relegated to my bedroom that has its own unit or I must die of heat exhaustion or some such malady and my bed being the most comfortable thing in the house, I find I cannot resist it even to guarantee greater accuracy in typing, thank goodness of spellcheck)....Only if one insists on a certain rigid interpretation that does not reference certain other additional scriptures.
inquiringmind Posted August 22, 2011 Author Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) from the book Mormon Doctrine IIRCI know this is a stupid question, but what is "Mormon Doctrine IIRC" (and what does the IIRC stand for ) ? Edited August 22, 2011 by inquiringmind
Calm Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) I know this is a stupid question, but what is "Mormon Doctrine IIRC" (and what does the IIRC stand for ) ?Mormon Doctrine is a work by Bruce R. McConkie, some people call it McConkie Doctrine because he expresses some of his personal opinions as if they were official doctrine...and unfortunately some people take it that way.IIRC is "If I recall correctly".See http://www.mormonwik...uce_R._McConkie for more details.Not stupid by the way, I forget sometimes you are not as familiar with all things LDS as you might appear at times because you do have some depth in some areas, but not in all areas yet. Edited August 22, 2011 by calmoriah
inquiringmind Posted August 22, 2011 Author Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) Thank you.calmoriah. I've learned a good deal I didn't know from you, Kevin Christensen, jo1952, and CV75 here on this thread. Edited August 22, 2011 by inquiringmind
jo1952 Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) Thank you.calmoriah. I've learned a good deal I didn't know from you, Kevin Christensen, jo1952, and CV75 here on this thread.Please keep asking questions! You seem to have a great insight which takes us into waters not that commonly frequented. I feel you have experienced a great deal of personal revelation from the Holy Ghost. The LDS do not have exclusivity to Truth. In fact, I would offer that there are many many people who are not members of the Church who have a greater understanding of Truth, if not more, than many of the members of the Church. I will probably get slammed by some of the LDS posters for making that observation. Your types of questions help me focus on and share what my beliefs really look like when they are studied out, rather than just repeated in accordance with recorded Church doctrine. IOW, there are layers and layers of understanding to be had. Over time, the principle of learning line upon line, and precept upon precept, will reach a point where we will realize that we having been "learning" at levels such as are described as the difference between milk and meat. And all of this is fine! It is just where we need to be; whatever level we are at. Suddenly, recently, for me, it was like a huge light (isn't that interesting....."light") was turned on in my head and I "got it" - more so than the previous years of studying had brought to me; yet during those years I thought I had already "gotten" it. Now, we all speek of the phenomena wherein we state that each time we read the scriptures we see something we never saw before. But I think what many of us don't realize, is that in the beginning of our journey these steps are "baby" steps (if you will). We are taught that Heavenly Father is the One who determines what we are ready to have revealed to us. The Holy Ghost will then reveal what the Father has told Him we can now handle and bear (methinks I was a slow learner, very caught up in my physical world). I think what happens is that the little steps we take become exponentially progressive until suddenly we begin to take bigger and bigger steps. That is when we start experiencing "epiphanies" (as I like to distinguish them from the more familiar and common guidance we are able to receive on a daily basis which have to do with our personal lives, as opposed to having the Kingdom of God opened to our spiritual minds). We don't need an earthly, scholarly education before the Holy Ghost will reveal spiritual matters to our spirit. (This does not mean I do not pursue continual secular education....) Interestingly, the more I have revealed, the more I realize that I am still blind to oh so much more. This concept is repeated in scholarly pursuits; well, it applies to the Kingdom of God as well...at least for me.Regardless of the "size" of an experience or what it is that has been revealed, I am always humbled and in amazement that in some incomprehensible way, Father IS aware of me and knows me and loves me enough to send ANY bit of communication to me. He is helping us to be led down the path of really becoming "one" with our Savior and with Him. I don't even know if I am making any sense. Yet in my weakness of poor communication skills, it is in pursuing and seeking the Truth that I find my greatest and most inexplicable joy.I am filled with His joy so much at this moment that I cannot help but to share these words with you, or I feel I will burst. Please continue to ask questions so that we can edify one another and share our joy. Love,jo Edited August 22, 2011 by jo1952
zerinus Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 Only if one insists on a certain rigid interpretation that does not reference certain other additional scriptures.Such as?You appear to be throwing around one-liners haphazardly without having a serious contribution to make to the discussion. I am not sure what to make of that.
inquiringmind Posted August 22, 2011 Author Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) To jo1952,I'm just trying to sort things out (and I thank you for your help.) P.S. I'll keep asking questions. Edited August 22, 2011 by inquiringmind
Ahab Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 ...the ultimate punishment of the sons of perdition may be that they, having their spiritual bodies disorganized, must start over again, must begin anew the long journey of existence, repeating the steps that they took in the eternities before the Great Council was held (Evidence and Reconciliations, pp. 213-214). The sons of perdition are not going to have their spiritual bodies disorganized, so, no, that is not "compatible" with the Book of Mormon if by "compatible" you mean in harmony with the truth that is in the Book of Mormon about the state of those who become sons of perdition.The idea that sons of perdition, or anyone, could have their spiritual bodies "disorganized" is a false precept which makes about as much sense as the idea that our Father somehow exists without any substance or parts or passions.What would "they" be if they didn't have some form of substance. Justr a thought in somebody else's head, with no form of body of their own?I mean, come on now, really. Who in their right mind would believe something like that, much less think it's compatible with anything which is true.
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