Is This Compatible With Bom?

[inquiringmind]

Given the ambiguity of the Hebrew and Greek words translated "forever" and ""everlasting"

http://oneclimbs.com...nd-eternal-god/

I can see how this view (expressed by LDS Apostle John Widtsoe) might be compatible with the Bible--but is it compatible with the BOM?

...the ultimate punishment of the sons of perdition may be that they, having their spiritual bodies disorganized, must start over again, must begin anew the long journey of existence, repeating the steps that they took in the eternities before the Great Council was held (Evidence and Reconciliations, pp. 213-214).

I'm not asking if Apostle Widtsoe'a oppinion is doctrine (I know it isn't), I'm asking if it's really possible for a Latter Day Saint to hold this opinion and believe the BOM is true (and I'm thinking of passages like 2 Nephi 9:16, which seem to teach eternal conscious torment much more explicitely than any text in the Greek New Testament..)

Edited August 21, 2011 by inquiringmind

[CV75]

Given the ambiguity of the Hebrew and Greek words translated "forever" and ""everlasting"

http://oneclimbs.com...nd-eternal-god/

I can see how this view (expressed by LDS Apostle John Widtsoe) might be compatible with the Bible--but is it compatible with the BOM?

...the ultimate punishment of the sons of perdition may be that they, having their spiritual bodies disorganized, must start over again, must begin anew the long journey of existence, repeating the steps that they took in the eternities before the Great Council was held (Evidence and Reconciliations, pp. 213-214).

I'm not asking if Apostle Widstoe'a oppinion is doctrine (I know it isn't), I'm asking if it's really possible for a Latter Day Saint to hold this opinion and believe the BOM is true (and I'm thinking of passages like 2 Nephi 9:16, which seem to teach eternal conscious torment much more explicitely than any text in the Greek New Testament..)

Of course, since he uses the term "may be." To make this compatible with 2 Nephi 9:16, one can think that they may suffer forever and ever until they want to start the long journey of existence over again.

[inquiringmind]

Of course, since he uses the term "may be." To make this compatible with 2 Nephi 9:16, one can think that they may suffer forever and ever until they want to start the long journey of existence over again.

Thank you.

Could this be relevant too?

The Book of Mormon states that Hebrew was the language spoken and understood by the people. This makes the Hebrew text of the Bible a good source to look to for understanding of some of these words...

Qedem

...This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is “l’olam va’ed” and is usually translated as “forever and ever” but in the Hebrew it means “to the distant horizon and again” meaning “a very distant time and even further” and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time. – Jeff A. Benner

http://oneclimbs.com...nd-eternal-god/

Edited August 20, 2011 by inquiringmind

[CV75]

Thank you.

Could this be relevant too?

http://oneclimbs.com...nd-eternal-god/

Yes, to me it can, in that the Hebrews viewed time in terms of meaningful events much more than in chronological measurements. Still, I think they used measures of time when useful (it just wasn't as meaningful or important as events impacting on one's relationship with God). I also think that regardless of whether one's view of time is of eastern or western (or any other) orientation, the doctrine of Christ as laid out in 2 Nephi 11 is paramount and can be practiced by anyone. So whatever their view of time and eternity, the Book of Mormon is relevant and their understanding of the doctrine of Christ can be applied effectively.

[Kevin Christensen]

From my essay in JBMS 2/1

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=2&num=1&id=16

In the Grofs' discussion, the process of psychological death and rebirth "bears a striking similarity to the events described through the ages in shamanistic initiation, rites of passage, temple mysteries, and in the ecstatic religions of many ancient and preliterate cultures."12 They identify the first of three stages as cosmic engulfment, related to the onset of biological delivery, beginning with "an overwhelming feeling of anxiety and an awareness of a vital threat."13 This corresponds to Alma's shock at seeing the angel.

The second stage is no exit, related to "the second stage of delivery in which uterine contractions encroach on the foetus, but the cervix is closed." Subjectively, "the situation is inescapable and eternal. There is no hope and no way out either in space or in time."14

Notice how Alma describes a longing for annihilation while he felt "racked with eternal torment," being "encircled about by the everlasting chains of death" (Alma 36:12, 18). Concerning "the ordeal of h***," the Grofs write:

The feeling that suffering is eternal is an essential experimental attribute of h***. The endlessness of this state does not consist in an extreme extension of linear time, but in its transcendence. The individual undergoes tortures beyond any imagining which at that point are the only available reality; since the sense of the linear flow of time is lost, there appears to be no way out. It is only when this situation is fully accepted that one has experienced h***, and the journey can continue.15

In Alma's account of his torment, the terms "everlasting" and "eternal" do not refer to duration, but to quality. Alma reports that his "eternal torment" lasted for three days (cf. D&C 19:1–21).

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[jadams_4242]

Given the ambiguity of the Hebrew and Greek words translated "forever" and ""everlasting"

http://oneclimbs.com...nd-eternal-god/

I can see how this view (expressed by LDS Apostle John Widtsoe) might be compatible with the Bible--but is it compatible with the BOM?

...the ultimate punishment of the sons of perdition may be that they, having their spiritual bodies disorganized, must start over again, must begin anew the long journey of existence, repeating the steps that they took in the eternities before the Great Council was held (Evidence and Reconciliations, pp. 213-214).

I'm not asking if Apostle Widstoe'a oppinion is doctrine (I know it isn't), I'm asking if it's really possible for a Latter Day Saint to hold this opinion and believe the BOM is true (and I'm thinking of passages like 2 Nephi 9:16, which seem to teach eternal conscious torment much more explicitely than any text in the Greek New Testament..)

Herbrew greek or australian. those whom chose not to go on choseing; have not a chance; nor do i beleive even a desire...

[inquiringmind]

Thank you CV75, and Kevin.

One thing that still puzzels me is the Mormon use of the term "eternities."

Where did the Mormon practice of using this unusual plural form come from, and what does it mean?

(Could it possibly mean ages, or ""aions"?)

Edited August 20, 2011 by inquiringmind

[zerinus]

Given the ambiguity of the Hebrew and Greek words translated "forever" and ""everlasting"

http://oneclimbs.com/2011/07/31/the-everlasting-and-eternal-god/

I can see how this view (expressed by LDS Apostle John Widtsoe) might be compatible with the Bible--but is it compatible with the BOM?

It is neither compatible with the Bible nor with the Book of Mormon.

...the ultimate punishment of the sons of perdition may be that they, having their spiritual bodies disorganized, must start over again, must begin anew the long journey of existence, repeating the steps that they took in the eternities before the Great Council was held (Evidence and Reconciliations, pp. 213-214).

I'm not asking if Apostle Widstoe'a oppinion is doctrine (I know it isn't), I'm asking if it's really possible for a Latter Day Saint to hold this opinion and believe the BOM is true (and I'm thinking of passages like 2 Nephi 9:16, which seem to teach eternal conscious torment much more explicitely than any text in the Greek New Testament..)

Anything is "possible;" but not necessarily true.

[inquiringmind]

It is neither compatible with the Bible nor with the Book of Mormon.

There are many who've looked at the languages of the Bible, and who believe it is compatible.

Prof. Keth DeRose (of Yale University) for one.

http://pantheon.yale...d47/univ.htm#10.

Edited August 20, 2011 by inquiringmind

[zerinus]

There are many who've looked at the languages of the Bible, and who believe it is compatible.

Prof. Keth DeRose (of Yale University) for one.

http://pantheon.yale...d47/univ.htm#10.

Those people do not speak from the Mormon perspective, and what they say is not always true. Universalism is not a doctrine of Mormonism.

[inquiringmind]

I didn't ask if it was "a doctrine of Mormonism."

I know it's not "doctrine."

I asked if Apostle Widtsoe's private opinion (which would seem entirely compatible with the Bible--at least according to scholars who know more about the Hebrew and Greek than I do) is compatible with the BOM.

Edited August 21, 2011 by inquiringmind

[zerinus]

I didn't ask if it was "a doctrine of Mormonism."

I know it's not "doctrine."

I asked if Apostle Widtsoe's private opinion (which would seem entirely compatible with the Bible--at least according to scholars who know more about the Hebrew and Greek than I do) is compatible with the BOM.

It is not compatible with the Book of Mormon; and I do not believe it is compatible with Bible either.

I disagree with those "scholars" who think it is--no matter how learned and erudite they may be.

[inquiringmind]

It is not compatible with the Book of Mormon; and I do not believe it is compatible with Bible either.

I disagree with those "scholars" who think it is--no matter how learned and erudite they may be.

And unless he didn't really have a testimony that the BOM is true, I'd have to assume that Apostle Widtsoe would disagree with you here (when you say his opinion isn't compatible with the Book of Mormon,)

I mean I'm sure he knew it as well as you and I do, don't you think?

BTW: If you had said "I don't think it's compatible with the BOM," I would have thanked you for stating your opinion.

Edited August 21, 2011 by inquiringmind

[zerinus]

And unless he didn't really have a testimony that the BOM is true, I'd have to assume that Apostle Widtsoe would disagree with you here (when you say his opinion isn't compatible with the Book of Mormon,)

Perhaps he wouldn't! Perhaps being an Apostle, he would recognize that I am right, and admit that he was wrong!

I mean I'm sure he knew it as well as you and I do, don't you think?

Not necessarily. That does not necessarily always follow!

[inquiringmind]

Are you saying he hadn't read the same passages you have (as many or more times), or that he didn't understand them as well as you do?

Edited August 21, 2011 by inquiringmind

[zerinus]

Are you saying he hadn't read the same passages you have (as many or more times), or that he didn't understand them as well as you do?

I am not making any statements about myself. I am merely exercising my personal judgement to assert that I believe his interpretation to have been incorrect.

[inquiringmind]

I am not making any statements about myself. I am merely exercising my personal judgement to assert that I believe his interpretation to have been incorrect.

Then I thank you for your opinion.

[zerinus]

Then I thank you for your opinion.

Except that it is a bit more than that. It is more like the sons of Mosiah mentioned in Alma 17:2-3.

[CV75]

Thank you CV75, and Kevin.

One thing that still puzzels me is the Mormon use of the term "eternities."

Where did the Mormon practice of using this unusual plural form come from, and what does it mean?

(Could it possibly mean ages, or ""aions"?)

Where the word “eternities” isn’t found in scripture, it may just be shorthand for the phrase, “from all eternity to all eternity", which is in the books of Moses and Moroni. Many dictionaries list “eternities” as the plural for “eternity” so the word is in use in the English language and not unique to Mormonism.

I understand that terms such as "for ever and ever" were translated from the Greek "aion" which I think goes beyond the idea of "infinite" and more conveys "indeterminate" periods of time, or from an oriental conceptualization, indeterminate periods of experience.

Edited August 21, 2011 by CV75

[inquiringmind]

Except that it is a bit more than that. It is more like the sons of Mosiah mentioned in Alma 17:2-3.

And if Apostle Widtsoe had been as much like these sons of Mosiah as you are (and had studied the scriptures as diligently as you have), perhaps his opinion would be worth as much as yours.

(Thank you for clarifying what was first a dogmatic statement, then an opinion, and now "a bit more" than an opinion.)

Edited August 21, 2011 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

Where the word “eternities” isn’t found in scripture, it may just be shorthand for the phrase, “from all eternity to all eternity", which is in the books of Moses and Moroni. Many dictionaries list “eternities” as the plural for “eternity” so the word is in use in the English language and not unique to Mormonism.

I understand that terms such as "for ever and ever" were translated from the Greek "aion" which I think goes beyond the idea of "infinite" and more conveys "indeterminate" periods of time, or from an oriental conceptualization, indeterminate periods of experience.

Thank you.

[zerinus]

And if Apostle Widtsoe had been as much like these sons of Mosiah as you are (and had studied the scriptures as diligently as you have), perhaps his opinion would be worth as much as yours.

(Thank you for clarifying what was first a dogmatic statement, then an opinion, and now a little more than an opinion.)

I cannot speak for him. I am not passing judgment on him either. Unfortunately, he is not here to speak for himself neither. But I stand by what I have said.

[jo1952]

Given the ambiguity of the Hebrew and Greek words translated "forever" and ""everlasting"

http://oneclimbs.com...nd-eternal-god/

I can see how this view (expressed by LDS Apostle John Widtsoe) might be compatible with the Bible--but is it compatible with the BOM?

...the ultimate punishment of the sons of perdition may be that they, having their spiritual bodies disorganized, must start over again, must begin anew the long journey of existence, repeating the steps that they took in the eternities before the Great Council was held (Evidence and Reconciliations, pp. 213-214).

I'm not asking if Apostle Widtsoe'a oppinion is doctrine (I know it isn't), I'm asking if it's really possible for a Latter Day Saint to hold this opinion and believe the BOM is true (and I'm thinking of passages like 2 Nephi 9:16, which seem to teach eternal conscious torment much more explicitely than any text in the Greek New Testament..)

What a great question! It is actually something I have pondered in recent months as a result of conversations I have had with a very dear non-LDS believer. I think the teaching IS compatible with both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. The BOM teaches us that Nephi was only allowed to record what had been revealed to him up to a certain point; that a man named John (the Beloved) would be revealing more prophecy (the Book of Revelation). Inasmuch as our eternal existence began as "intelligence", I have no problem with the possibility that at some point a person's spirit could be disorganized back into its "intelligence " state.

What I haven't been able to follow through on in my thought process is, does the torment while being a son of perdition finally end if a person's spirit is disorganized; or is there still a rememberance of their prior state of "spirit" being? I have also wondered if that disorganization of a person's spirit is a last resort action by Father on behalf of that person so that he/she can have another chance of achieving salvation in a different earth's allotted "time" for physical existence. I do believe that some sons of perdition may be able to "work out" whatever problems have brought them into that condition, wherein they do a "part" in the lake of fire of brimstone, and then are able to escape it. While others, who are more stubborn, may indeed get to the point where their only hope of salvation IS to be disorganized, and start all over again.

This certainly could be where varying ideas about reincarnation came from in some of the other more ancient religions.

BTW, I am certainly no scholar of either Hebrew or Greek. I have enough trouble with my native language, English. I tend to depend upon my own independent study of scripture. Actually, my study is NOT independent, as I am constantly seeking the guidance of the Holy Ghost. I can't seem to get enough!! As more and more layers of understanding are constantly being revealed, the understandings build upon each other and....oh my....I have NO words to describe what happens when my mind is opened to the Kingdom of God.

Best regards,

jo

Edited August 21, 2011 by jo1952

[inquiringmind]

I cannot speak for him. I am not passing judgment on him either. Unfortunately, he is not here to speak for himself neither. But I stand by what I have said.

And I again thank you for stating your opinion.

John Widtsoe stated his in writting.

Brigham Young stated a similar opinion.

The FAIR web site says the Church has no official position.

So please allow other people to state their opinions.

BTW: The question I asked in the OP was not whether Apostle Widtsoe was right or wrong, but whether his opinion could be reconciled with certain passages in the Book of Mormon (and it would seem some think it can be.)

Edited August 21, 2011 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

What a great question! It is actually something I have pondered in recent months as a result of conversations I have had with a very dear non-LDS believer. I think the teaching IS compatible with both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. The BOM teaches us that Nephi was only allowed to record what had been revealed to him up to a certain point; that a man named John (the Beloved) would be revealing more prophecy (the Book of Revelation). Inasmuch as our eternal existence began as "intelligence", I have no problem with the possibility that at some point a person's spirit could be disorganized back into its "intelligence " state.

What I haven't been able to follow through on in my thought process is, does the torment while being a son of perdition finally end if a person's spirit is disorganized; or is there still a rememberance of their prior state of "spirit" being? I have also wondered if that disorganization of a person's spirit is a last resort action by Father on behalf of that person so that he/she can have another chance of achieving salvation in a different earth's allotted "time" for physical existence. I do believe that some sons of perdition may be able to "work out" whatever problems have brought them into that condition, wherein they do a "part" in the lake of fire of brimstone, and then are able to escape it. While others, who are more stubborn, may indeed get to the point where their only hope of salvation IS to be disorganized, and start all over again.

This certainly could be where varying ideas about reincarnation came from in some of the other more ancient religions.

BTW, I am certainly no scholar of either Hebrew or Greek. I have enough trouble with my native language, English. I tend to depend upon my own independent study of scripture. Actually, my study is NOT independent, as I am constantly seeking the guidance of the Holy Ghost. I can't seem to get enough!! As more and more layers of understanding are constantly being revealed, the understandings build upon each other and....oh my....I have NO words to describe what happens when my mind is opened to the Kingdom of God.

Best regards,

jo

Best regards to you (and thank you for posting your opinion here.).