Perfection

[inquiringmind]

Is perfection attainable in this life (and was Job really perfect)?

[KevinG]

Is perfection attainable in this life (and was Job really perfect)?

I doubt it. Jesus Christ was the only perfect (meaning sinless) man. We can become perfect but only through the grace of Jesus Christ. I am hard pressed to think anyone achieved this in mortality other than Christ.

[Calm]

Is perfection attainable in this life (and was Job really perfect)?

Perhaps someone might become perfect in some aspect of their life ("become" as opposed to "always being" perfect, though I supposed that in some ways I can claim to have been completely perfect from the moment I drew breath, such as in my abhorrence of pork and beans), but complete perfection....don't see it as possible if only because our existence is currently so limited.

[ldsfaqs]

I believe there most certainly IS a "degree" of perfection that is attainable in this life.

We know of the City of Enoch which the people were so perfect that the entire city was Translated, i.e. returned the God.

We know other examples of individuals and otherwise.

We know in the Millennium man will have such a degree of perfection that they also will live for a time, and not die but be translated.

I actually believe this is one of the "secrets" that God wanted to Restore when he restored the Church.

He wants to tell us, that we CAN have hope, that we CAN most certainly achieve a level of perfection similar to Christ's.

Sure, we will never be that degree of perfection, but we clearly CAN come darn close, if not all the way.

I believe people "settle" too much. Of course, people can become to obsessed if they are focusing on "works" instead of the Gospel itself, that is of the Heart, but if one has the basics in their soul, I believe the heavens are the limit, not simply the sky is the limit. The scriptures teach it..... so how can we deny it?

[Calm]

If someone is actively seeking perfection for the sake of being perfect rather than actively seeking to live the Gospel to the best of his or her abilities, then I suspect they will never even come close to the perfection of Christ. OTOH, someone earnestly seeking to follow Christ out of love and obedience will come much closer because they are centered on Christ, not themselves.

[Kevin Christensen]

Two things about perfection. One from John Welch:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=71&chapid=840

Interestingly, a few New Testament scholars have begun hinting that the Sermon on the Mount had cultic or ritual significance in the earliest Christian community. Betz, for example, sees the Sermon on the Mount as revealing the principles that "will be applied at the last judgment,"2 and thinks that the Sermon on the Mount reminded the earliest Church members of "the most important things the initiate comes to 'know' through initiation," containing things that "originally belonged in the context of liturgical initiation."3 Indeed, the word "perfect" (teleios, Matthew 5:48) has long been associated with becoming initiated into the great religious mysteries.4

He elsewhere talks about the difference between the Greek idea of an abstract perfection (an unattainable ideal) versus the Hebrew view towards keeping specific covenants (which is pratical and attainable).

One from me:

I find it striking that all the arguments given by scriptural people who rejected the prophets reflect measures taken against either fear (that is, submission to preconceptions—something "perfect" not to be challenged) or desire (emotional ideals, and not to be threatened).138 Betty Edwards points out that the effects of fear and desire are built into our perceptions.

"Most of us tend to see parts of a form hierarchically. The parts that are important (that is, provide a lot of information), or the parts that we decide are larger, or the parts we think should be larger, we see as larger than they actually are. Conversely, parts that are unimportant, or that we decide are smaller, or that we think should be smaller, we see as being smaller than they actually are."139

Which current problems or solutions demonstrate the course to take in the future? The questions you ask shape your answers. If you say of Joseph Smith, "Is his inspiration perfect?" and, therefore, promising in light of your present capacity to judge that inspiration, you have also arranged to make the appearance of imperfection decisive. If you say, "Is his inspiration ideal?" and, therefore, promising in light of your current desires, you have also arranged to make your wants decisive. But if you say, "Is his inspiration real?" you begin to participate in the way Alma recommends. You can start with a single seed, and the first sign of growth and life is enough to show the future promise, in spite of any imperfections you see or frustrations you may have.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=7&num=2&id=193

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Maidservant]

I think the question really lies in our understanding of the meaning of perfection, and Kevin gave some good insights.

I always ask myself this question: Can Jesus type 90 words a minute? Can he drive a semi-truck? Will his souffle fall in the oven? If any of these things happen, does that mean that Jesus is imperfect? Thus, if there are lots of things I can't do (yet), does it mean I am imperfect?

My mother and I were discussing my 11 year old son, and I should tell you that it is my view that my son is perfect. His heart his guileless, his cheer is unflagging, there is no work he will not do, his love and compassion for his younger brother is boundless, etc. Now, there are times when my 11 year old son's joke are ANNOYING! And occasionally he and his sister bicker. But do these things subtract from his perfection? In my view, no.

I do like the idea that perfection means complete or whole, rather than the Perfection we normally perceive. But I also think that there is a lot more to learn on this. The invitation to become perfect is at the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount, and there is a reason for that, and it is to be understood in terms of the Sermon on the Mount. The Sermon on the Mount is a (carefully crafted and presented) ascension text . . . part of what that means is that it shows the progression of godliness IN ORDER, so that if you live the Sermon on the Mount IN ORDER, you will have culminated (ritually and in reality) in perfection. But still even saying that is only a small thing to say on perfection . . . there is so much one could learn on it.

Possible in this life? Yes.

[Deborah]

I do like the idea that perfection means complete or whole, rather than the Perfection we normally perceive.

From Elder Nelson perfection

Recently I studied the English and Greek editions of the New Testament, concentrating on each use of the term perfect and its derivatives. Studying both languages together provided some interesting insights, since Greek was the original language of the New Testament.

In Matt. 5:48, the term perfect was translated from the Greek teleios, which means “complete.” Teleios is an adjective derived from the noun telos, which means “end.” The infinitive form of the verb is teleiono, which means “to reach a distant end, to be fully developed, to consummate, or to finish.” Please note that the word does not imply “freedom from error”; it implies “achieving a distant objective.” In fact, when writers of the Greek New Testament wished to describe perfection of behavior—precision or excellence of human effort—they did not employ a form of teleios; instead, they chose different words.

Noah was said to be perfect in his generation. To me that simply means he was doing all the Lord asked of him.

[CV75]

Is perfection attainable in this life (and was Job really perfect)?

I think you need to define what your understanding of perfection is, because in some cases the answer is yes, and in others, the answer is no.

[altersteve]

Perfection is attainable, but only in some areas and even then only to a certain degree, and it can be lost.

[Storm Rider]

Is perfection attainable in this life (and was Job really perfect)?

Christ directed us to, "be ye therefor perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect". This apparent command perplexes many saints; it is too overwhelming, too much to consider. I think, I believe that Christ is asking us to engage in the pursuit of holiness. If we do not shun the fight, if we are valiant in following Christ, in sharing his inifite light with our spouse, our children, our families, and the world, we will be perfected through Christ. He is the fount of all our holiness and perfect union with God the Father.

I am positive that God is not expecting us to never make a mistake; just that we keep repenting and remain willing to take upon us the name of Christ daily.

Does this make better sense to you?

[ldsfaqs]

If someone is actively seeking perfection for the sake of being perfect rather than actively seeking to live the Gospel to the best of his or her abilities, then I suspect they will never even come close to the perfection of Christ. OTOH, someone earnestly seeking to follow Christ out of love and obedience will come much closer because they are centered on Christ, not themselves.

Correct.... Someone striving to make the Gospel "of" them, not simply striving to be some external thing of "perfection" is the way.

It's also why when Anti's accuse us of being a "works" based religion is such junk. Because the Gospel to us is about the internal way, being as the Father, not doing some outside works and thinking we will be "gods". The outside stuff is a part of the "refining" process of the INTERNAL work that is occurring.

It's in a way kinda like exercise. Exercise sure makes us all pretty and strong on the outside, but the real benefits is what occurs on the inside from the outside work.

Sure, not an exact analogy, because what occurs on the inside is mostly automatic response, while with the Gospel what occurs on the inside is generally controlled by our thoughts, and spirits etc., but it's close. I think thoughts and spirit related to exercise can also influence internal functioning. But anyway.

[jo1952]

Is perfection attainable in this life (and was Job really perfect)?

Okay, I'm stalking your threads now....

I thought I might share the Septuagint's version of Job 1:1 as well as the KJV version.

Job 1:1 (Septuagint)

There was a certain man in the land of Ausis whose name [was] Job; and that man was true, blameless, righteous [and] godly, abstaining from everything evil.

***

Job 1:1 (KJV)

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Here is the Hebrew definition of the word "perfect" as it is used in this verse:

H8535

תּם

tâm

tawm

From H8552; complete; usually (morally) pious; specifically gentle, dear: - coupled together, perfect, plain, undefiled, upright.

I love the book of Job. The trials that he faces, and with the way he lived his life according to either canon version, do present him as being perfect; i.e., complete, morally pious, gentle, undefiled, feared God, eschewed evil, etc. Additionally, I believe that Job is shown to be a "type" for Christ. Of course, his trials and sufferings were not the magnitude of Christs; nor do I believe Job could have survived them if they had been. His trials also mimic many of each of our trials as we journey through this life, especially inasmuch as Satan was pretty much given free rein to test him; while the Lord had confidence in Job to remain faithful and true. His example is an encouragement to me because his trials are things I can much more easily identify with than the scale of incomprehensible suffering and trials of our Savior.

I think, in his way, and in accordance with what the Lord allowed him to go through, was to show that Job WAS perfect within the confines of his abilities. That said, however, the accomplishments of Christ's perfection are on the scale of His Divine Abilities - that there was no one else who could have done what He did. More was asked of Jesus than was asked of Job - even though the pattern of Job's life mimics the same types of sufferings Christ experienced; although, obviously, Job was never crucified to save the world from sin.

Just a few interesting details about Job. He actually lived before Moses and the book of Job was written BEFORE Moses wrote the Torah. It appears he lived after the flood (so he would be a descendant of Noah) around the time of Peleg. He lived BEFORE Abraham, though, and was not, therefore, Hebrew.

Best regards,

jo