Islam

[BCSpace]

But they are not "openly condemn[ing] it". They are silent, at best. Many, while not participating actively in the battle, are supporting the jihadists.

And, your hypothetical Restorationists do not exist. The "Radical Fundamentalist Islam[ists]" do, and they are many.

If Islam, as a religious tradition wished to shed its terrorist label, it could do so in a single day: the issuance of a thousand fatwahs calling for the destruction of terrorists organizations, and declaring terrorists apostates and infidels wold accomplish the label shedding, and would also effectively end the terror. I am not holding my breath, 'cause it will not happen.

Lehi

Le Sellars has left the building.

Have to agree with Le Sellars, who merely expressed his opinion, on this one (+1). His views are more in line with the well-established and respected scholar Daniel Pipes who incidentally (while while others are bandying his name about) is also respected by DCP.

[BCSpace]

Qur'an

This one has three translations side by side for easy comparison. Yusuf-Ali, Pickthal, and Shakir.

Thanks!

You're welcome!

[bluebell]

Mormonism produced the Mountain Meadows Massacre. And plenty of rumor about blindly following the prophet follows Mormons into politics. Catholicism in recent times has been a source of worry to many Protestants. Islam historically, and recently before this latest era of extremism, has always produced fanatics that threaten non Muslims with violence. Therefore, as practiced historically, Islam is not a religion of "peace". It is a dangerous and violent religion. So is Christianity. So is Mormonism. So is Judaism....

Lest we forget the lessons of earlier decades-so is atheism.

Though not a religion, it's certainly a belief system which has proven that it can be a violent and dangerous belief system with an ability to produce death and destruction on a grand scale.

[Jeff K.]

Mormonism produced the Mountain Meadows Massacre. And plenty of rumor about blindly following the prophet follows Mormons into politics. Catholicism in recent times has been a source of worry to many Protestants. Islam historically, and recently before this latest era of extremism, has always produced fanatics that threaten non Muslims with violence. Therefore, as practiced historically, Islam is not a religion of "peace". It is a dangerous and violent religion. So is Christianity. So is Mormonism. So is Judaism. So is any religion that sees the world with an "us and them" perspective, combined with an adopted mandate to spread the faith: believing that "God" has willed it, and even required the subjugation and death of unbelievers....

Actually Mormonism did not produce the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Indeed, given the harsh treatment of the saints, the robbery of land, the death threats, military incursions, if Mormonism created the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the territory would have been replete with such incidences. The Mountain Meadows Masscre was an anomalie created by fear. A fear that the same thing by done by those who called themselves Christians a few years earlier would be repeated again. Mormonism does not produce fear in its members, but the outside environment can. There is ample evidence of harsh treatment of Mormons by others, and there was no place left for Mormons to run.

Catholicism does not cause fear in Protestants, unless of course one wishes to play the numbers game, and all groups in general can produce fanatics, including Mormons. I think the entire premise is a bit false given that fanaticism, or overzealousness is a human trait and not a doctrinal one. As mentioned earlier, fanatics like Mao and their atheistic system killed more people than the last World War. Couple that with Stalins systemic murder policy and you see atheism magnified. Or do we acknowledge that bad people can react or act within any belief system, and given the right environment, commit atrocities?

[Arkholt]

al-Qaeda : Islam :: KKK : Christianity.

That's really about the size of it. Do you think a Muslim employer would trust a white person less because he's heard about the terrible things the KKK has done? No? Then why ought a white person act otherwise in a similar situation?

[thesometimesaint]

What the vast majority of Muslims are like.

http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-230-4139.htm

Ps. The bomber doesn't sound like a Muslim to me.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/norway-attacks-suspects-video-tells-conservatives-embrace-martyrdom/story?id=14141571

PPs. The guy is ANTI-Muslim

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/07/22/277229/norway-attacks-suspect-custody/

Edited July 24, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[MeDotOrg]

First of all, to answer the original question, I would recommend Karen Armstrong's "A Short History of Islam."

I would also like to relate a story in the news that, unlike the massacre in Oslo, actually has to do with a Muslim.

Eleven days after 9/11, Mark Stroman walked into a Dallas convenience store and asked the clerk "Are you a Muslim?". Before the clerk could answer, Stroman shot him in the face.

Last Thursday, the state of Texas executed Mark Stroman, who killed two Muslims in the days following 9/11. While strapped to the gurney, Stroman declared himself an American, "Texas loud and Texas proud".

One man fought against the execution of Stroman, Rais Bhuiyan, the clerk that who was shot in the face, now blinded in one eye. His motivation is explained in the suit to stay the execution:

"Plaintiff is strongly motivated by his religious beliefs. Forgiveness is a long standing mechanism within many faiths, Islam being one of them, towards the healing of the soul. As a Muslim, plaintiff is of the belief that when he forgives or promotes mercy for his attacker, the government should no longer have a duty or a right to exact the ultimate punishment upon Mr. Stroman."

How many of us, Christian, Muslim, or otherwise, can show the grace and compassion of Mr. Bhuiyan?

[Hamba Tuhan]

I am with Herman Cain here: I couldn't trust a Muslim, no matter his race, without extensive background checks, and, even then, ...

Wow, I wish I could introduce you to a few dozen good friends of mine, including a Muslim couple who asked me to help bless their infant son for them. Of course, it sounds like they'd all need background checks first, 'and, even then, ....'

[Hamba Tuhan]

Have to agree with Le Sellars, who merely expressed his opinion, on this one (+1).

For some crazy reason, I would rather agree with Elders George A Smith and Parley P Pratt:

As early as 1855, at a time when Christian literature generally ridiculed Muhammad as the Antichrist and the archenemy of Western civilization, Elders George A. Smith (1817–75) and Parley P. Pratt (1807–57) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles delivered lengthy sermons demonstrating an accurate and balanced understanding of Islamic history and speaking highly of Muhammad’s leadership. Elder Smith observed that Muhammad was “descended from Abraham and was no doubt raised up by God on purpose” to preach against idolatry. He sympathized with the plight of Muslims, who, like Latter-day Saints, found it difficult “to get an honest history” written about them. Speaking next, Elder Pratt went on to express his admiration for Muhammad’s teachings, asserting that “upon the whole, … [Muslims] have better morals and better institutions than many Christian nations” (Ensign, Aug 2000).

[thesometimesaint]

Hamba Tuhan:

For some crazy reason I agree with you.

Ps. And the US Constitution.

[coolrok7]

Monday was the beginning of Ramadan; the Islamic month where Muhammad reportedly received his cave experience with the angel Gabriel and the beginning of receiving the Qu’ran (the prelude to Joseph Smith and Moroni):

Ramadan (Arabic: رمضان‎ Ramaḍān, Arabic pronunciation: [rɑmɑˈdˤɑːn]) (also Ramadhan, Ramadaan, Ramazan) is the ninth month of the Islamic calendar, which lasts 29 to 30 days. It is the Islamic month of fasting, in which participating Muslims refrain from eating and drinking during daylight hours and is intended to teach Muslims about patience, spirituality, humility and submissiveness to God. Muslims fast for the sake of God (Arabic: الله‎, trans: Allah) and to offer more prayer than usual. Compared to the solar calendar, the dates of Ramadan vary, moving backwards by about eleven days each year depending on the moon; thus, a person will have fasted every day of the calendar year in 34 years' time. Muslims believe Ramadan to be an auspicious month for the revelations of God to humankind, being the month in which the first verses of the Qur'an were revealed to the Islamic prophet, Muhammad.

I have the translation of Abdullah Yu’suf Ali’, both a translation and commentary. Regardless of what translation is used it still says the following (as quoted in this book co-wrote by, “A Muslim and a Christian in Dialogue”) which is at odds with the necessity of the crucifixion of Jesus and the resultant physical, glorified resurrection (human form) of Jesus from the dead:

The important role bestowed on the Prophet Isa (PBUH) did not make him ‘Son of God’ or single him out as the only saviour for mankind. . . .The Christian witness that man is forgiven because of the crucifixion of Jesus is not in line with the Muslim belief. The end of the Prophet Isa (PBUH) on earth is blanketed in mystery, . . .On this issue the Qur'an tells us: That they said (in boast); We killed Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of God! But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them; and those who differ, therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow. For surety, they killed him not. Nay Allah raised him unto Himself; and Allah is ever Mighty wise (Qur'an 4:157-58). . . .Islam does not identify with the Christian conviction that man needs to be redeemed. The Christian belief in the redemptive sacrificial death of Christ does not fit the Islamic view. (Islam and Christianity, pp.140-41)

It wasn’t Muhammad or Joseph Smith being referred to as both Islam and Mormonism claims.

Muhammad (PBUH) used to visit the cave (ghar) of Hira frequently for spiritual meditation. . . .The first revelation had descended on Muhammad (PBUH) through the angel Jibril (Gabriel). In this way Muhammad (PBUH) overcome with fear, hurried home and related to his beloved Khadija all that had happened. She comforted him assuring him that what he had received was true revelation from Allah. . . .The first revelation was shortly followed by a second one, which came to Muhammad (PBUH) when he was shivering and had been covered by a mantle at home. The command was: ‘O thou enveloped in thy cloak, Arise and warn! Thy Lord magnify’. . .(Qur'an 74:1-3). Muhammad (PBUH), through Allah’s Word, had been chosen to spread His message (Islam and Christianity, p.41)

While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, . . .a personage appeared. . .He. . .said unto me. . .he was a messenger. . .from. . .God. . .name was Moroni. . .commanded me to go to my father and tell him of the vision and commandments which I had received. I obeyed; I returned to my father in the field, and rehearsed the whole matter to him. He replied to me that it was of God, and told me to go and do as commanded by the messenger (POGP, JOSEPH SMITH—HISTORY 1:30, 33, 49, 50)

The bottom line issue is did God really choose Muhammad (or Joseph for that matter) to, “spread his message”? The Biblical answer to that is no. God had already revealed His chosen “Prophet” (like Moses) almost 600 years earlier (there wasn’t going to be a repeat of yet another “Prophet” like unto Moses except for false prophets):

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

For Moses truly said to the fathers, “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you”. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. (Acts 3:20-26)

Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. (Galatians 4:1-5)

The Biblical warning:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:15-20)

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. (Galatians 1:6-eight)

The solutions offered by both Islam and Mormonism (obedience to law which is not to say one shouldn’t obey God but one cannot keep it perfectly which is what only Jesus could do and did) in which Jesus had already fulfilled the Law of Moses perfectly and offered His life as the ransom sacrifice and offers to us salvation by grace through faith in Jesus, no one else or other way.

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. (Acts 4:10-13)

Jesus is “the way the truth and the life.” Peter and Paul (both interacted with Jews/Gentiles) were both 1st century apostles with all the authority one needs to establish the truth of the Word of God and to believe in Jesus for eternal life:

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Corinthians 1:10-13)

[Storm Rider]

Monday was the beginning of Ramadan; the Islamic month where Muhammad reportedly received his cave experience with the angel Gabriel and the beginning of receiving the Qu’ran (the prelude to Joseph Smith and Moroni):

Jesus is “the way the truth and the life.” Peter and Paul (both interacted with Jews/Gentiles) were both 1st century apostles with all the authority one needs to establish the truth of the Word of God and to believe in Jesus for eternal life:

You seem to want to preach here. Let me give you a clue...oh forget it. It is such a waste of time. One, you don't understand Islam. Two, you don't understand the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Three, you don't even understand the Bible.

[Nenahnezad]

I work with a Muslim. A very nice guy. From Bosnia. He's observing Ramadan. I'm observing Fast Sunday.

[thesometimesaint]

Nenahnezad:

I've always wondered why Fast Sunday always seems to go so slowly.

[Jeff K.]

Our stake is participating with some majids by taking part in a food drive during Ramadam.

[Samurai2012]

My thinking about Muslims may sound odd, but for me personally, don't fear them, and realize that for most of these people, it's what their parents taught them. Personally, I think they're here, not the belief system, but some outstanding people who are Muslim, to give us all some reminders of the kinds of people we should be. I admit this is religious, but God has his good purposes for people not of Christianity, Judaism, etc., to help encourage the covenant people to do the right thing. But then again, that's because I am a person who feels the Bible has personal lessons that apply to me.

As far as the extremists go, I know that there are surprises, but don't let it taint your own view of the whole mess, and I'm talking to Lehi. Plenty of these extremists are just as messed up for attacking and killing other Muslims for not towing their line, doesn't that sound that nice at all. To me it sounds similar to Mark Hoffman, who killed members of the church as part of his own little agenda, or the kidnapper of the Smart kid who figured Mormonism didn't go by how he felt it should.

As for the European population issue, my personal words to you are, have faith in what the Lord promised. Seriously, maybe there will be some suffering from all the good people, and perhaps power might change in places, but it's not like God will allow his plans to be thwarted by one secret, treacherous, agenda.

[elguanteloko]

Also, can you recommend a good, basic "Introduction to Islam" sort of book? With all that's going on in the world today, I'd like to gain at least a basic, but accurate, understanding of what it's all about.

Thanks!

You'll hardly find a better one:

http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Present-Future-Hans-K%C3%BCng/dp/1851683771

[coolrok7]

(DH)Can anybody recommend a good translation/edition of the Koran for a lay person to read? Also, can you recommend a good, basic "Introduction to Islam" sort of book? With all that's going on in the world today, I'd like to gain at least a basic, but accurate, understanding of what it's all about.

Thanks! . . .

You seem to want to preach here. Let me give you a clue...oh forget it. It is such a waste of time. One, you don't understand Islam. Two, you don't understand the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Three, you don't even understand the Bible. (Storm Rider)

Storm rider, my response wasn’t intended to be preaching but a response to an indirect request. That you don’t like what I said is your prerogative but it is my perspective which I believe is biblically accurate and can be demonstrated (the thread had been dormant for a few days as well).

My response included a Wikipedia reference to Ramadan (for informational purposes) which had just started this past Monday, a reference to an Islamic English translation/commentary along with a reference from a book co-written by an Islamic and Christian lecturer in dialogue concerning their respective faith:

Badru Kateregga was born in the Muslim community of Butambala in Uganda. He has been lecturer and head of the Islamic studies unit in Makerere University, Uganda. In 1978, he became a lecturer in Islamic studies and comparative religions at Kenyatta University College, University of Nairobi, Kenya.

David Shenk was born in a Christian missionary home in Tanzania; for ten years he was involved in educational work in Islamic Somalia, after which he worked in Kenya for six years as a lecturer in comparative religion and Church history in the Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies at Kenyatta University College of the University of Nairobi (back cover, Islam and Christianity)

A pertinent quote illustrating the incompatibility of the Qur’an with what the Bible declares to be true in the context of the actual crucifixion of Jesus for the payment of sin in the atonement (animal sacrifice of the Jewish Temple type was only a foreshadow of the shedding of Jesus’ blood):

Islam- The important role bestowed on the Prophet Isa (PBUH) did not make him ‘Son of God’ or single him out as the only saviour for mankind. . . .The Christian witness that man is forgiven because of the crucifixion of Jesus is not in line with the Muslim belief. The end of the Prophet Isa (PBUH) on earth is blanketed in mystery, . . .On this issue the Qur'an tells us: That they said (in boast); We killed Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of God! But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them; and those who differ, therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow. For surety, they killed him not. Nay Allah raised him unto Himself; and Allah is ever Mighty wise (Qur'an 4:157-58). . . .Islam does not identify with the Christian conviction that man needs to be redeemed. The Christian belief in the redemptive sacrificial death of Christ does not fit the Islamic view. (Islam and Christianity, pp.140-41)

The above is diametrically opposed to the following (and people want to believe the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was the author of the above after the following?):

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. (Hebrews 10:1-13)

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:50-54)

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; . . . But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. . . . And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (Ephesians 1:7; 2:13, 16-17)

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:9-10)

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (1 Peter 1:18-19)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the under-standing of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:17-23)