Better Not Born?

[inquiringmind]

inquiringmind:

...there is no official doctrine beyond http://lds.org/scrip....29?lang=eng#28

Thank you.

Edited July 15, 2011 by inquiringmind

[mfbukowski]

Verse 6 of D&C 19 says, "Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment."

Which is precisely what 2 Nephi 9:16 says, that the tormenting flame has no end. I don't think "has no end" is one of God's names.

Figure out the logic of the first statement, ok?

It is NOT written that there shall be no end to punishment

MEANS

There WILL be an end to the punishment

"but it is written endless torment"

Refers to the explanation that "endless torment" MEANS "God's torment" (punishment)

I have stated my case and it is well documented that Mormons do not believe in an endless h***. I really don't want to spend my life on this thread- I was doing "inquiring" a favor answering his question to the best of my ability and don't wish to argue the case.

I am confident I am right and will remain so on this point.

[CV75]

Remember that Judas is probably classed as a "son of perdition" because he was closely associated with Jesus personally on a daily basis,and presumably had no doubt that he was the Christ. He was not only baptized and confirmed (ie: Holy Spirit and fire)

One cannot be a son of perdition unless one knows of an absolute certainty that Jesus is the Christ, and THEN denies him. For those, it is said that it would be better if they had not been born.

So for those of us who are lowly members who have not had a vision or some experience showing the absolute certainty of Christ- as the scriptures say "seeing my face, and knowing that I am". we do not even qualify to be a son of perdition- even though we have been baptized and have received the HG.

So being a son of perdition is reserved for very few that we know "for sure" (probably- because we cannot really judge even these) are sons of perdition- Lucifer is one, Cain, Judas is another, the Antichrist will be another, actually at the moment I can't think of any others that we know of- but I am sure there are many others we do not know about.

As far as Satan's punishment vs Judas, I would say that it probably doesn't matter. I think that outer darkness eventually means "second death" which means non-existence or oblivion.

That is why, in my opinion, it would be better had they never been born, or for that matter, existed as spirits. If they had never existed, since their existence was basically futile because it's final result was oblivion, - they would not have had to go through the pains of their punishments nor would they have led others astray. So in the cosmic balance, "good" would have been better off if they never existed

One thinks of the lives of young people who go off and kill people at random, and then end up being killed by police, and it is tempting to think the same of them- all their young lives resulted in was bringing tragedy to others, without any purpose for it. Of course we know that these are not sons of perdition though, since they had no understanding presumably of what Jesus did for them

Looking at the quote again:

1. “it had been good” (note it is not “better”).

The pre-mortal Judas was a good spirit, choosing good; at least good enough to come to earth for a body.

2. “for that man”

The pre-mortal condition, or not being born, was good for Judas. Had he not been born, pre-mortal life would have continued to be “good for that man”, as long as he didn’t join the hosts following Satan.

3. “if he had not been born”

Judas was not like Satan in that Satan was not born into mortality as a function of his rebellion against God. Perhaps not being born may be a function of some other decision than rebellion against God. Had Judas not been born, he may have continued sufficiently faithful to God as a spirit, and happy in keeping a perpetual first estate, or at least one of longer duration. But since he rebelled maximally as a mortal, his level of unhappiness is obviously far worse than had he remained as a functioning pre-mortal spirit.

Does “it had been good” refer to a universal, cosmic good as far as God is concerned, or to the more limited good pertaining to the happiness of that man? It strikes me that the phrase is written in the spirit of the latter, highlighting the role of agency and choice in how the betrayal played out, but a linguist would provide a better analysis.

It also strikes me that there is no such thing as cosmic balance (maybe that’s another thread topic). The deepest forces of darkness cannot balance out God (He would continue as He is without an “evil twin”). God always wins. These dark fores only provide sufficient opposition of one particular type for those spirits who are good enough to enter mortality and face them as part of the probationary second state, and God permits this.

[Libs]

I was going to make the same comment about intelligences. They are supposed to be eternal...no beginning, no end.

[mfbukowski]

Is it "intelligences," or "intelligence, light, and truth"?

My answer is that "intelligences" are made up of "intelligence stuff" - some kind of tangible force-stuff/field/something.

No light (electromagnetic radiation) no intelligence, no intelligence stuff.

It's like if there were no quark-string-field thingies there would be no bodies. I think that ultimately we will see this all as physics if science last that long before we get creamed by an asteroid or God just calls the game over.

But what do I know?

[Libs]

From lds.org. Sure sounds like the punishment is "eternal".

Sons of Perdition

See also Damnation; Death, Spiritual; Devil; h***; Unpardonable Sin.

The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality, and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35).

None of them is lost but the son of perdition, John 17:12

It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance, Heb. 6:4–6 (Heb. 10:26–29).

Mercy hath no claim on that man and his final doom is never-ending torment, Mosiah 2:36–39

He is as though there was no redemption made, Mosiah 16:5

Those who deny Christ’s miracles to get gain shall become like the son of perdition, 3 Ne. 29:7

They will receive no forgiveness in this world or the next, D&C 76:30–34 (D&C 84:41; D&C 132:27).

They are the only ones who will not be redeemed from the second death, D&C 76:34–48

Sons of perdition deny the Holy Spirit after receiving it, D&C 76:35

Sons of perdition deny the Son after the Father has revealed him, D&C 76:43

Cain shall be called Perdition, Moses 5:22–26.

http://lds.org/scriptures/gs/sons-of-perdition?lang=eng

[Ahab]

Figure out the logic of the first statement, ok?

It is NOT written that there shall be no end to punishment

MEANS

There WILL be an end to the punishment

"but it is written endless torment"

Refers to the explanation that "endless torment" MEANS "God's torment" (punishment)

I have stated my case and it is well documented that Mormons do not believe in an endless h***. I really don't want to spend my life on this thread- I was doing "inquiring" a favor answering his question to the best of my ability and don't wish to argue the case.

I am confident I am right and will remain so on this point.

It can be said that h*** exists as long as there is a place where our Father's punishment can be felt.

I liken it to a prison, just like the prisons we have here on Earth.

You do a crime, and you do the time, and then after that you are let out.

Believe it or not, if there is any way to be disobedient to our Father in heaven after we are dead, or after we are resurrected... or after anything for that matter... we're going to find ourselves in someplace where we will feel the wrath of our Father until the penalty for that sin has been paid or we have repented.

Jesus covers for us only if and when we repent, you know.

[Ahab]

The second death is all about being separated from God yet again after being reconciled to him through Jesus Christ. It's about separation, not annihilation.

It would have been better had they never been born because then they would have never denied Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost after accepting the plan of our Father in heaven. Remember, all those who have been born as mortals on this Earth had already accepted our Father's plan in heaven, and had they never been born on this Earth while passing through the veil of forgetfulness they would have never changed their direction to a position of actually rejecting our Father in heaven.

Jesus will forgive those who deny him, but our Father and the Holy Ghost won't, because our Father has stipulated that we need to accept Jesus as our Savior to be able to return to our Father's presence, which is also what the Holy Ghost tells us, so by denying Jesus Christ AND the Holy Ghost we're denying (or more like rejecting) the only way there is to return to our Father's presence.

Separated once from our Father's presence, Jesus has come to save us, but separated again from our Father's presence after rejecting the only way to be saved we're then stuck in separation from our Father's presence.

Better to have been separated only once from our Father's presence while still having a way to be saved.

Did everybody see this?

Just checking.

[inquiringmind]

Figure out the logic of the first statement, ok?

It is NOT written that there shall be no end to punishment

MEANS

There WILL be an end to the punishment

"but it is written endless torment"

Refers to the explanation that "endless torment" MEANS "God's torment" (punishment)

I have stated my case and it is well documented that Mormons do not believe in an endless h***. I really don't want to spend my life on this thread- I was doing "inquiring" a favor answering his question to the best of my ability and don't wish to argue the case.

I am confident I am right and will remain so on this point.

Thank you mfbukowski.

Is it "intelligences," or "intelligence, light, and truth"?

My answer is that "intelligences" are made up of "intelligence stuff" - some kind of tangible force-stuff/field/something.

No light (electromagnetic radiation) no intelligence, no intelligence stuff.

It's like if there were no quark-string-field thingies there would be no bodies. I think that ultimately we will see this all as physics if science last that long before we get creamed by an asteroid or God just calls the game over.

But what do I know?

And thanks for explaining that.

Edited July 15, 2011 by inquiringmind

[mfbukowski]

I was going to make the same comment about intelligences. They are supposed to be eternal...no beginning, no end.

Dunno.

I think of intelligence more like matter- on that view, atoms are eternal, they just get re-arranged. Maybe "An" intelligence is like a molecule- a molecule is certainly "information" so it can be seen as a kind of intelligence evidence or something if you want to.

I don't see these issues as horribly important or worth arguing over- just throwing out ideas. This stuff is so totally abstract from what we need to be doing with our lives that it is practically meaningless imo. Certainly in terms of significance in our lives, it pretty much IS meaningless.

There is no science on it, there is no revelation on it- we can write poems and metaphors to each other all day, but life goes on!

[mfbukowski]

It can be said that h*** exists as long as there is a place where our Father's punishment can be felt.

I liken it to a prison, just like the prisons we have here on Earth.

You do a crime, and you do the time, and then after that you are let out.

Believe it or not, if there is any way to be disobedient to our Father in heaven after we are dead, or after we are resurrected... or after anything for that matter... we're going to find ourselves in someplace where we will feel the wrath of our Father until the penalty for that sin has been paid or we have repented.

Jesus covers for us only if and when we repent, you know.

I'll buy that.

[mfbukowski]

Gotta go and actually do stuff now-

Just turn on the bat beacon if you need me

[inquiringmind]

From lds.org. Sure sounds like the punishment is "eternal".

http://lds.org/scrip...dition?lang=eng

From fairlds.org. Sure sounds like it might not be.

This page is based on an answer to a question submitted to the FAIR web site, or a frequently asked question.

Question

Today in our Sunday School class an individual expressed the belief that the sons of perdition would be given another chance to achieve celestial glory. Could you direct me to any specific reference on this topic?

Answer

Main article: Will Sons of Perdition be resurrected?Different General Authorities have had different perspectives on the eventual fate of the sons of perdition. The ultimate issue lies in the nature of man and intelligences.

Joseph Smith

Toward the end of his life, Joseph Smith emphasized key doctrinal points regarding the eternal nature of the intelligence and the mind of man:

The soul the mind of man, whare did it come from? The learned says God made it in the beginning, but it is not so, I know better God has told me so. If you dont believe it, it wont make the truth without effect, God was a self exhisting being, man exhists upon the same principle. God made a tabernacle & put a spirit in it and it became a Human soul, man exhisted in spirit & mind coequal with God himself....^[1] In 1833, Joseph and the First Presidency also emphasized that teaching that the sons of perdition would be restored was not authorized:

Say to the brothers, Hulets, and to all others that the Lord never authorized them, to say, that the devil, nor his angels, nor the sons of perdition should ever be restored, for their state of destiny wled, save to those who are made partakers thereof: consequently those who teach this doctrine have not received it of the spirit of the Lord. Truly Brother Oliver declared it to be the doctrine of devils.^[2]

Brigham Young and 19th century

After Joseph was killed, the complexities of the King Follett sermon led to a few differing interpretations regarding the soul which have lasted until today in the Church. On a few occasions Brigham Young discoursed on intelligence or spirit "recycling" (for lack of a better term), particularly regarding those sent to outer darkness, or at least those who forsake the gospel. It seems Brigham diverged from the teachings of Joseph Smith that the "mind" (or identity) is eternal — Brigham probably saw intelligence as a kind of substance that can be formed and reformed into different identities, rather than intelligences as eternal identities, or minds. For example, on 17 April 1853, he explained:

The Lord said to Jeremiah the Prophet, "Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hands of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." The clay that marred in the potter's hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion, to be prepared over again. So it will be with every wicked man and woman, and every wicked nation, kingdom, and government upon earth, sooner or later; they will be thrown back to the native element from which they originated, to be worked over again, and be prepared to enjoy some sort of a kingdom.^[3] Technically "some sort of a kingdom" could indicate Brigham believed they could inherit a telestial or terrestrial, but never attain a celestial, kingdom. Brigham seems to have understood "intelligence," or the eternal part of man, as something that could be disorganized and reorganized. He was careful to point out he wasn't teaching an annihilation, but a recycling. On 17 August 1856 he stated:

But the truth is, you are not going to have a separate kingdom [from God when you are exalted]; I am not going to have a separate kingdom; it is not our prerogative to have it on this earth. If you have a kingdom and a dominion here, it must be concentrated in the head; if we are ever prepared for an eternal exaltation, we must be concentrated in the head of the eternal Godhead. Why? Because everything else is opposed to that kingdom, and the heir of that kingdom will keep up the warfare with that opposing power until death is destroyed, and him that hath the power of it; not annihilated, but sent back to native element.^[4]

20th century

Joseph F. Smith differed from Brigham's view, and explicitly mentioned his rejection of the idea of "dissolution":

Thus we see that the first death which came into the world is also the last death which shall be pronounced upon the sons of perdition. What is it? Banishment from the presence of God. Banishment from the power of God. Banishment from the glory of God. Banishment from the joys of heaven. Banishment from all progress. Banishment into outer darkness. Banishment into h***, which is as a lake of fire and brimstone, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, because the soul lives and is bound to live on, suffering the damnation of h***. This is what I understand spiritual death is. I do not understand it to be the separation of the body and the spirit again. I do not understand it to be the dissolution of the spirit into its [p.228] native element. I understand the second death to be the same as the first death-spiritual death; the same condition that Adam was in and that he had to be redeemed from by the blood of Christ, and by faith and obedience to the commands of God. By this means Adam was redeemed from the first death, and brought back again into the presence of God, back again into the favor of the Almighty, back again into the channel of eternal increase and progress. And if a man, after being placed in this condition, shall deny the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ, putting Him again to open shame and crucifying Him afresh, then that first death which fell upon our first parents will again be pronounced upon that man, and it is not written that he shall ever be delivered from it. It is not written that there is any forgiveness for it, nor any redemption therefrom.^[5] More recent LDS leaders such as Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie have rejected the idea that those in perdition can ultimately be redeemed, which contradicts Brigham's speculations.^[6] Elders Smith and McConkie were concerned that the view advanced by Brigham might "lull men into a state of carnal security,"^[7] and thus hamper their mortal probation.

Scripture

Knowing that disagreement exists among the teachings of various LDS leaders, perhaps for the time being it is most prudent to rely upon canonized LDS scripture. For example, Doctrine and Covenants 76 maintains that no ultimate knowledge of the fate of the sons of perdition will be known to any but the partakers:

Wherefore, he saves all except them — they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment — And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows; Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof. (DC 76:44-46) Compare that with the following from an earlier revelation:

Wherefore I will say unto them — Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. And now, behold, I say unto you, never at any time have I declared from mine own mouth that they should return, for where I am they cannot come, for they have no power. But remember that all my judgments are not given unto men; and as the words have gone forth out of my mouth even so shall they be fulfilled, that the first shall be last, and that the last shall be first in all things whatsoever I have created by the word of my power, which is the power of my Spirit. (DC 29:29-30)

Summary

Brigham's speculations are interesting, but currently remain outside accepted or official LDS doctrine, and stand in contrast to other LDS leaders past and present. Perhaps it is significant that in the official Church manual Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, a segment from a sermon given August 26, 1860 is included as follows:

Jesus will bring forth, by his own redemption, every son and daughter of Adam, except the sons of perdition, who will be cast into h***.... The punishment of God is God-like [see D&C 19]. It endures forever, because there never will be a time when people ought not to be damned and there must always be a h*** to send them to. How long the damned remain in h***, I know not, nor what degree of suffering they endure.... God's punishment is eternal, but that does not prove that a wicked person will remain eternally in a state of punishment.^[8] Perhaps Brigham viewed the fate of the sons of perdition much like the fate of those who inherit a telestial glory, who suffer for a time, as described in DC 76:81-84. Perhaps the best course for the time being is to recall that, ultimately, "all [God's] judgments are not given unto men" (DC 29:30).

Main article: Will Sons of Perdition be resurrected?

The Church does not take an official position on this issue

http://www.fairwiki....n/Eventual_fate

Edited July 15, 2011 by inquiringmind

[Mark Beesley]

Figure out the logic of the first statement, ok?

That was rather snide. DId it make you feel better?

[Mark Beesley]

From lds.org. Sure sounds like the punishment is "eternal".

They (some of the other posters) may be confusing/melding the punishment of Sons (and Daughters) of Perditions with that of others who eventually inherit a Kingdom of Glory after suffering h***. Perdition's torment never ends. h***'s does.

[inquiringmind]

They (some of the other posters) may be confusing/melding the punishment of Sons (and Daughters) of Perditions with that of others who eventually inherit a Kingdom of Glory after suffering h***. Perdition's torment never ends. h***'s does.

According to the article from the Mormon Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (on "the eventual fate of the sons of perdition"), "The Church does not take an official position on this issue."

Edited July 15, 2011 by inquiringmind

[Libs]

Dunno.

I think of intelligence more like matter- on that view, atoms are eternal, they just get re-arranged. Maybe "An" intelligence is like a molecule- a molecule is certainly "information" so it can be seen as a kind of intelligence evidence or something if you want to.

I don't see these issues as horribly important or worth arguing over- just throwing out ideas. This stuff is so totally abstract from what we need to be doing with our lives that it is practically meaningless imo. Certainly in terms of significance in our lives, it pretty much IS meaningless.

There is no science on it, there is no revelation on it- we can write poems and metaphors to each other all day, but life goes on!

I agree, not worth arguing over, just kind interesting to play around with.

The Book of Abraham seems to indicate that "intelligences" are already somewhat organized?

3:22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

Actually...now that I read that again...maybe not. "intelligences that were organized"...I guess, maybe, they were organized, before being chosen.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Libs

[Questing Beast]

To Questing Beast,

Didn't you just cntradict yourself in your last two posts here?

No. In the first post I was talking about Church doctrine. In the second post I was talking about what B. Young said on one occasion, and about what I believe....