Jump to content

Cumorah - Did Joseph Allow Errors About Cumorah?


BOMG

Recommended Posts

Poster "Robert F. Smith" denies that:

a> Joseph knew where the Hill Cumorah was,

b> Joseph identified the hill he retrieved the plates from as "Cumorah."

Text considered:

Official Church History:

"The following communication was designed to have been published in the last No. of the Star; but owing to a press of other matter it was laid over for this No. of the Messenger and Advocate. Since it was written, upon further reflection, we have thought that A FULL HISTORY OF THE RISE OF THE CHURCH of the Latter Day Saints, and the most interesting parts of its progress, to the present time, would be worthy the perusal of the Saints.-If circumstances admit, an article on this subject will appear in each subsequent No. of the Messenger and Advocate, until the time when the church was driven from Jackson Co. Mo. by a lawless banditti; & such other remarks as may be thought appropriate and interesting.

THAT OUR NARRATIVE MAY BE CORRECT, and particularly the introduction, it is proper to inform our patrons, that our brother J. SMITH JR. HAS OFFERED TO ASSIST US." (LATTER DAY SAINTS' MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, Volume I. No. 1. KIRTLAND, OHIO, OCTOBER, 1834 p. 12)

The fact this was the official LDS Church publication containing the official church history directed by Joseph Smith and reprinted in the Times and Seasons (1840), the Gospel Reflector (1841), and Letters by Oliver Cowdery to W. W. Phelps on the Origin of the Book of Mormon and the Rise of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Liverpool, 1844), should pause any follower of a Book of Mormon Geography Model outside of New York:

"I must now give you some description of the place where, and the manner in which these records were deposited.

You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N. Y. and also, as you pass from the former to the latter place, before arriving at the little village of Manchester, say from three to four, or about four miles from Palmyra, you pass a LARGE HILL on the east side of the road. Why I say large, is, because it is as large perhaps, as any in that country. To a person acquainted with this road, a description would be unnecessary, as it is the largest and rises the highest of any on that route. The north end rises quite sudden until it assumes a level with the more southerly extremity, and I think I may say an elevation higher than at the south a short distance, say half or three fourths of a mile. As you pass toward Canandaigua it lessens gradually until the surface assumes its common level, or is broken by other smaller hills or ridges, water courses and ravines. I think I am justified in saying that this is the HIGHEST HILL for some distance round, and I am certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly from a plain on the north, must attract the notice of the traveller [traveler] as he passes by.

At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, BETWEEN THESE HILLS, THE ENTIRE POWER AND NATIONAL STRENGTH OF BOTH THE JAREDITES AND NEPHITES WERE DESTROYED.

By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the book of Mormon you will read Mormon's account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round THIS HILL CUMORAH. In this valley fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites-once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. From the top of THIS HILL, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope, or doubt. A few had fled to the South, who were hunted down by the victorious party, and all who would not deny the Savior and his religion, were put to death. Mormon himself, according to the record of his son Moroni, was also slain.

But a long time previous to this national disaster it appears from his own account, he foresaw approaching destruction. In fact, if he perused the records of his fathers, which were in his possession, he could have learned that such would be the case. Alma, who lived before the coming of the Messiah, prophesies this. He however, by divine appointment, abridged from those records, in his own style and language, a short account of the more important and prominent items, from the days of Lehi to his own time, after which he deposited, as he says, on the 529th page, ALL THE RECORDS IN THIS SAME HILL, CUMORAH, and after gave his small record to his son Moroni, who, as appears from the same, finished, after witnessing the extinction of his people as a nation.

It was not the wicked who overcame the righteous; far from this: it was the wicked against the wicked, and by the wicked the wicked were punished.-The Nephites who were once enlightened, had fallen from a more elevated standing as to favor and privilege before the Lord, in consequence of the righteousness of their fathers, and now falling below, for such was actually the case, were suffered to be overcome, and the land was left to the possession of the red men, who were without intelligence, only in the affairs of their wars; and having no records, only preserving their history by tradition from father to son, lost the account of their true origin, and wandered from river to river, from hill to hill, from mountain to mountain, and from sea to sea, till the land was again peopled, in a measure, by a rude, wild, revengeful, warlike and barbarous race.-Such are our Indians.

THIS HILL, by the Jaredites, was called (page 158) Ramah: by it, or around it, pitched the famous army of Coriantumr their tents. Coriantumr was the last king of the Jaredites. The opposing army were to the west, and in this same valley, and near by, from day to day, did that mighty race spill their blood, in wrath, contending, as it were, brother against brother, and father, against son. In this same spot, in full view from the top of THIS SAME HILL, one may gaze with astonishment upon the ground which was twice covered with the dead and dying of our fellowmen. Here may be seen where once sunk to nought the pride and strength of two mighty nations; and here may be contemplated, in solitude, while nothing but the faithful record of Mormon and Moroni is now extant to inform us of the fact, scenes of misery and distress-the aged, whose silver locks in other places and at other times would command reverence; the mother, who in other circumstances would be spared from violence; the infant, whose tender cries would be regarded and listened to with a feeling of compassion and tenderness; and the virgin, whose grace, beauty and modesty, would be esteemed and held inviolate by all good men and enlightened and civilized nations, alike disregarded and treated with scorn!-In vain did the hoary head and man of gray hairs ask for mercy; in vain did the mother plead for compassion; in vain did the helpless and harmless infant weep for very anguish, and in vain did the virgin seek to escape the ruthless hand of revengeful foes and demons in human form-all alike were trampled down by the feet of the strong, and crushed beneath the rage of battle and war! Alas, who can reflect upon the last struggles of great and populous nations, sinking to dust beneath the hand of justice and retribution, without weeping over the corruption of the human heart, and sighing for the hour when the clangor of arms shall no more be heard, nor the calamities of contending armies no more experienced for a thousand years? Alas, the calamity of war, the extinction of nations, the ruin of kingdoms, the fall of empires and the dissolution of governments! O the misery, distress and evil attendant on these! Who can contemplate like scenes without sorrowing, and who so destitute of commiseration as not to be pained that man has fallen so low, so far beneath the station in which he was created?

IN THIS VALE lie commingled, in one mass of ruin, the ashes of thousands, and IN THIS VALE was destined to consume the fair forms and vigerous [vigorous] systems of tens of thousands of the human race-blood mixed with blood, flesh with flesh, bones with bones, and dust with dust! When the vital spark which animated their clay had fled, each lifeless lump lay on one common level-cold and inanimate. Those bosoms which had burned with rage against each other for real or supposed injury, had now ceased to heave with malice; those arms which were, a few moments before nerved with strength, had alike become paralyzed, and those hearts which had been fired with revenge, had now ceased to heave with malice; those arms which were, a few moments before nerved with strength, had alike become paralyzed, and those hearts which had been fired with revenge, had now ceased to beat, and the head to think-in silence, in solitude, and in disgrace alike, they have long since turned to earth, to their mother dust, to await the august, and to millions, awful hour, when the trump of the Son of God shall echo and re-echo from the skies, and they come forth, quickened and immortalized, to not only stand in each other's presence, but before the bar of him who is Eternal!

With sentiments of pure respect, I conclude by subscribing myself your brother in the gospel.

OLIVER COWDERY. "

[Source: LATTER DAY SAINTS' MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, Volume I. No. 1. KIRTLAND, OHIO, OCTOBER, 1834, p. 157-158]

Official Church Canon:

"And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from CUMORAH! MORONI, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the BOOK TO BE REVEALED." (D&C 128:20)

Additional Statements By Joseph Smith:

a>His own history says the BoM is a history of the ancient inhabitants of THIS LAND.

b>In D&C 10 (1828), Jesus said the BoM would come forth on BoM land - where Jesus preached anciently.

c>Joseph identified "OUR Western Tribe of Indians" as the descendants of BoM people.

d>The first missionaries were sent to the Indian Tribes in Buffalo, NY.

Question:

a>Did Joseph ever change either of those statements or do they now read as originally published?

b>Did Joseph ever identify another hill as "Cumorah"?

c>Why do the adherents of certain geographical models ignore official Church History and Church Canon?

d>Should all models that contradict the official position by Joseph be censored from Church bookstores and Church publications?

Link to comment

Great quote. I like it and it squares with my belief.

But not enough, really.

The fact remains that Joseph Smith never from his own pen linked ancient Cumorah with the NY Cumorah. It is pretty weak evidence (at least in the law) to argue that somebody assented to somebody else's position because he didn't correct it. In this case, the quote says that Pres. Smith assisted in the composition of that piece but we have to take the editor's word for it.

Link to comment

Joseph Smith: "I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." (History of the Church, 5:340)

Link to comment

Great quote. I like it and it squares with my belief. But not enough, really. The fact remains that Joseph Smith never from his own pen linked ancient Cumorah with the NY Cumorah.... we have to take the editor's word for it.

We accept the BoM and it was not written "from his own pen."

Joseph Smith: "I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." (History of the Church, 5:340)

Was that written by Joseph's "own pen"?

Link to comment

Was that written by Joseph's "own pen"?

Jesus: For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

Link to comment

Jesus: For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

True, one should accept the official Church History and Church Canon and not stir up confusion causing one to contend for the truth.

Link to comment

And yet one can't find the phrase "Official Church History" given in your link......

Who funded its publication?

Robert F. Smith is correct.

Rather Joseph Fielding Smith, a little higher status if you know what I mean, but hey, some people prefer the tastier waters down stream.

Link to comment

Who funded its publication?

I believe the Church contributes to the funding of the Maxwell Institute and its publications. Are you suggesting that these are therefore "official church history"?

Link to comment

I believe the Church contributes to the funding of the Maxwell Institute and its publications. Are you suggesting that these are therefore "official church history"?

Who was the President of the Church?

Did said President endorse the publication?

-----

Address the other points.

Link to comment

I believe the Church contributes to the funding of the Maxwell Institute and its publications. Are you suggesting that these are therefore "official church history"?

Who was the President of the Church?

Did said President endorse the publication?

-----

Address the other points.

Link to comment

You asked as if you were of the opinion that Joseph was a walking encyclopedia of BoM geography. It is a wonder he got anything else done with memorizing all that BoM information. When did he ever find time to organize a church and build temples and lead Zions Camp and etc, etc, etc.

Link to comment

You asked as if you were of the opinion that Joseph was a walking encyclopedia of BoM geography. It is a wonder he got anything else done with memorizing all that BoM information. When did he ever find time to organize a church and build temples and lead Zions Camp and etc, etc, etc.

Good point!

Aside from repeating what the angel(s) said, Joseph rarely cited the BoM and was busy "translating" the Bible and pursuing kingdom building and was ignorant of its geography other than where the final battle was, which is all we need to debunk distant models like Mesoamerica, etc..

Link to comment

Good point!

Aside from repeating what the angel(s) said, Joseph rarely cited the BoM and was busy "translating" the Bible and pursuing kingdom building and was ignorant of its geography other than where the final battle was, which is all we need to debunk distant models like Mesoamerica, etc..

Uh huh.

Of course none of the scholars who have thought about these "distant models" have ever even THOUGHT or read about this quote!

Why it's a "game changer" for sure!

Link to comment

ever even THOUGHT or read about this quote! Why it's a "game changer" for sure!

Good point!

Had they known about them, I'm sure it would have steered them away from Mesoamerica - at least regarding:

<a>Where Jesus preached anciently.

<b>Where the final battles were.

<c>Where "all" the records are.

Have any of those "distant" modelers integrated these facts? You can't have a Limited Model outside of Western, NY.

Link to comment

Good point!

Aside from repeating what the angel(s) said, Joseph rarely cited the BoM and was busy "translating" the Bible and pursuing kingdom building and was ignorant of its geography other than where the final battle was, which is all we need to debunk distant models like Mesoamerica, etc..

He probably was too busy to worry any more about the final battle geography than any of the rest of it.

Link to comment

Good point!

Had they known about them, I'm sure it would have steered them away from Mesoamerica - at least regarding:

<a>Where Jesus preached anciently.

<b>Where the final battles were.

<c>Where "all" the records are.

Have any of those "distant" modelers integrated these facts? You can't have a Limited Model outside of Western, NY.

Wake up and "read"" the BOM. I mean read what it is saying, not what you want it to say.

Link to comment

Good point!

Had they known about them, I'm sure it would have steered them away from Mesoamerica - at least regarding:

<a>Where Jesus preached anciently.

<b>Where the final battles were.

<c>Where "all" the records are.

Have any of those "distant" modelers integrated these facts? You can't have a Limited Model outside of Western, NY.

Uh, unfortunately, I was being sarcastic.

Link to comment

Yes, peace and prosperity could only be found on BoM lands.

I guess that rules out NY and Jersey. I also have the sneaking suspicion that my point about the Maximilian Adventure went over your head.

Link to comment

I guess that rules out NY and Jersey. I also have the sneaking suspicion that my point about the Maximilian Adventure went over your head.

I think this guy's ban bait or a sock puppet.

Volgadon + Log = ?

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...