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A New Interpretation Of "Moroni'S Promise"


WalkerW

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Loyd Ericson offered an intriguing interpretation of Moroni 10:3-5 (famously known as "Moroni's Promise") over at his blog Project Mayhem. The post reads as follows (I've added bolding for readability. No wording has been altered.):

Perhaps the most commonly cited passage of the Book of the Mormon is the three verses near the end of the book commonly referred to as "Moroni's Promise." From the tenth chapter of Moroni it reads:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Traditionally, these verses are read as request by the book's final editor, Moroni, to pray about the Book of Mormon as a whole--to ask if the Book of Mormon "is true." However, if we look at the context of these words from Moroni we can see that, contrary to tradition, Moroni is not asking readers to pray about the 529 printed pages that preceded these verses (the whole Book of Mormon), but is actually asking the reader to specifically pray about the 2 pages that follow his request (specifically verses 8 through 26).

The final chapter of the Book of Mormon contains a final plea from Moroni following Moroni's inclusion of two letters from his father Mormon. The chapter begins:

1 Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites; and I would that they should know that more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

2 And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.

Moroni begins by declaring that he has some important final words that he is about to write and then moves into the next two verses where he is asking readers to pray about the words he is about to give. Here are the verses again without Moroni's tangents:

Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites. . . .And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you. Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things . . . that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

So what are the words that Moroni wants the readers to pray about? A preface to what he is primarily concerned about can be found in these verses. Moroni asks that while reading his final words people "remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things" and that God "worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever." In other words, Moroni wants to remember two things as they are reading his final words: that God has worked miracles in the past, and that God does not change.

After his preface, Moroni then jumps into his final sermon (which is largely a plagiarism of Pauls first letter to the Corinthians). His first sentence sums up the bulk of his final words: "Deny not the gifts of God" (vs. 8). Moroni's final concern, his final words, are a plea to modern day readers that they do not deny that miraculous gifts--the gifts of the spirit--are still alive with true believers in Christ. After exhorting readers to not deny the gifts of the spirit that come from "the same God who worketh all in all" (vs. 8), Moroni then gives a summary of the gifts (vss. 9-18), a reminder that those gifts "cometh of Christ" (vs. 18), and then repeats what he wants the readers to remember: "that [God] is the same yesterday, today and forever, and that all these gifts . . . never will be done away" (vs. 19).

Moroni then offers some words about faith, hope, and charity (vss. 20-23; a paraphrasing of his earlier plagiarizing Paul in chapter 7), and then, again, warns about a day when "the gifts of God shall be done away among you . . . because of unbelief" (vs 24), warning that those who "do these things away . . . [shall] die in their sins, and . . . cannot be saved in the kingdom of God" (vs. 26).

He then finishes off his exhortation on gifts with how he began: a call to "remember these things . . . which were written by this man [Moroni]" (vs. 27), with a reminder that "God shall show unto you that that which I have written is true" (vs 29). He then gives one last call to "lay hold upon every good gift" (vs. 30).

Here are the verses again with just the bare parts of his message. Notice how the call to pray about the truthfulness of his words act as bookends containing his sermon on gifts:

1 Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites;

2 And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.

3-4 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, . . . that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

7 . . . Deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

8-18 (Sermon on gifts)

19. . . Remember that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that all these gifts of which I have spoken, which are spiritual, never will be done away, even as long as the world shall stand, only according to the unbelief of the children of men.

20-23 (comments on faith)

24-26 . . . If the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief. . . . And wo unto them who shall do these things away and die, for they die in their sins, and they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God; and I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not.

27 Remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?

29 And God shall show unto you, that that which I have written is true.

30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.

Allow me close by adding that this post is not to say that a person cannot pray about the truth of the Book of Mormon (whatever that means), but only that this is not what Moroni was asking readers to do. I am merely pointing out that rather than asking readers to pray about the Book of Mormon, Moroni was actually asking readers to pray about the reality of the gifts of the spirit--which were commonly denied in the 19th century (or even in the 21st century).

I think Loyd is on to something here. For those who might be put off by his accusations of plagiarism and his somewhat Vogelesque approach, don't be. I don't want the thread to be a debate over the cultural origins of the Book of Mormon (i.e. 19th century vs. antiquity). Stick to the intent of Moroni 10:3-5. Is Moroni speaking of his last sermon on spiritual gifts or of the record as a whole?

This is an exciting insight. I'd love to read your comments.

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This is an exciting insight. I'd love to read your comments.

I agree that this is an exciting insight. It is interesting to me that, despite the usual emphasis on his request being to pray about the truthfulness of the entire Book of Mormon, and also to use the approach as a template to receive a testimony of the truth of any matter, by following through on his exhortation in any fashion (Book of Mormon, any principle of truth, accepting his teachings on spiritual gifts), one way or the other we grow in faith and experience in the spiritual gifts he is talking about and actually realize the endowment of those gifts upon us.

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It's an interesting idea. I think the verses will always be used in the context of the entire BoM, though, because they so concisely explain what we wish people would do. It is a bit unfortunate, though, because I think it tends to make people gloss over the last part, when according to this commentator his point was to say, "Hey, what I'm about to say is really important, and you should listen up and pray about it."

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Interesting, I think he may be right. Moroni's challenge does seem to fit as part of that whole thought. However, I do think that vs. 5 is a bit of an aside telling us that we can apply the challenge/promise to whatever concerns we have.

I also believe that the material on accepting the Gifts of the Spirit in Moroni 10 is some of the most important and most relevant teachings for our day. (We are going to have that conversation about the loss of enchantment of the world and the effort to bring it back, I promise. I am almost done with finals, then I will have plenty of time for it.)

Yours under the literary oaks,

Nathair /|\

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Loyd Ericson offered an intriguing interpretation of Moroni 10:3-5 (famously known as "Moroni's Promise") over at his blog Project Mayhem. The post reads as follows (I've added bolding for readability. No wording has been altered.):

I think Loyd is on to something here. For those who might be put off by his accusations of plagiarism and his somewhat Vogelesque approach, don't be. I don't want the thread to be a debate over the cultural origins of the Book of Mormon (i.e. 19th century vs. antiquity). Stick to the intent of Moroni 10:3-5. Is Moroni speaking of his last sermon on spiritual gifts or of the record as a whole?

This is an exciting insight. I'd love to read your comments.

Moroni 10:3-5 is a principle that is applicablee to all we do. When one has a decision to make this principle can be applied in order to recive

God's guidance in any of our decisions. It is not limited to one page, or two pages, or the whole Book of Mormon. It applies to our life.

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Moroni 10:3-5 is a principle that is applicablee to all we do. When one has a decision to make this principle can be applied in order to recive

God's guidance in any of our decisions. It is not limited to one page, or two pages, or the whole Book of Mormon. It applies to our life.

I completely agree. As Nathair said, vs. 5 seems to make it applicable to all things. For me, vs. 3-5 make much more sense in the context of Moroni's sermon on spiritual gifts. The picture becomes much bigger than the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and consequently the modern LDS Church. It is a much broader context involving the very nature of God and His relationship with His creation. I've grown attached to vs. 7 over the years: "And ye may know that [Christ] is, by the power of the Holy Ghost." This caught my eye a couple years ago and I've grown fonder of it over time. This is what awakened me to the power of the Book of Mormon's message. It helped me fully break out of the missionary mindset of "read Moroni 10:3-5, pray about it, and get baptized." The point of gaining a testimony of the Book of Mormon is to gain a testimony of Christ. That is the message and it transcends the confines of the Mormon Church. The Church is the modern institution and vessel of the priesthood by which the covenant is established. But the message of Christ's atonement and resurrection transcends cultures, time frames, and institutions. As Moroni says in vs. 28, "[God's] word shall hiss forth from generation to generation."

The message of Christ is huge and Moroni knew that. It is easy to forget how earth-shattering it is due to how common it has become, particularly in heavily Protestant America. Spiritual gifts are the way by which mankind is transformed and eventually deified through His atonement. As St. Basil said,

Hence comes foreknowledge of the future, understanding of mysteries, apprehension of what is hidden, distribution of good gifts, the heavenly citizenship, a place in the chorus of angels, joy without end, abiding in God, and being made like to God, and, highest of all, to become God (θεον γενεσθαι). (De Spir. 9)

I'm reminded of something Joseph Smith is reported to have said. Rings loud and clear in light of Moroni's words:

"[W]hen the Prophet Joseph Smith was asked, "Wherein [the LDS Church] differed from the other religions of the day," he replied, that it was in "the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying-on of hands,…[and] that all other considerations were contained in the gift of the Holy Ghost" (HC 4:42)."

Not the Book of Mormon. Not the Godhead. Not modern-day prophets. The gift of the Holy Ghost. (I realize that they are all interconnected, but it has a lot more impact to see Joseph emphasizing the Spirit in this way.)

All in all, Joseph was right:

"The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it" (TPJS, p. 121).

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This is an exciting insight. I'd love to read your comments.

THe problem I have with Loyd is that he always presents an either/or, or he presnets this "this is really what it is about", when there are ofcourse many valid interpretations. And it is too bad when he does that has he generally has great insights into things. Anyway, when I used to read this promise to investigators I would read 1-5 as I thought it provided a richer context in to how God works and the gifts of the spirit.

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THe problem I have with Loyd is that he always presents an either/or, or he presnets this "this is really what it is about", when there are ofcourse many valid interpretations. And it is too bad when he does that has he generally has great insights into things. Anyway, when I used to read this promise to investigators I would read 1-5 as I thought it provided a richer context in to how God works and the gifts of the spirit.

Which is why I just want to focus on his insight. Loyd rubs some people the wrong way in his presentation. But very smart guy.

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Which is why I just want to focus on his insight. Loyd rubs some people the wrong way in his presentation. But very smart guy.

I am sorry, I just could not resist. Sometimes it is like flies to the poo, you know? But yeah I agree that this is a particulalry great insight.

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I am sorry, I just could not resist. Sometimes it is like flies to the poo, you know? But yeah I agree that this is a particulalry great insight.

I understand. I had a throw down the first time I met him on here. I ended up apologizing for my behavior. I've read some of his articles and keep up with his blog here and there. I actually hardly ever agree with him (or at least to the full extent), but he keeps me on my toes.

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It's an interesting idea. I think the verses will always be used in the context of the entire BoM, though, because they so concisely explain what we wish people would do. It is a bit unfortunate, though, because I think it tends to make people gloss over the last part, when according to this commentator his point was to say, "Hey, what I'm about to say is really important, and you should listen up and pray about it."

As it should be…but it should be applied to all truth as Moroni intended. It was his promise that you would “know the truth of all things”. So this should be applied to the Bible, D&C and so on.

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Loyd Ericson offered an intriguing interpretation of Moroni 10:3-5 (famously known as "Moroni's Promise") over at his blog Project Mayhem. The post reads as follows (I've added bolding for readability. No wording has been altered.):

I think Loyd is on to something here. For those who might be put off by his accusations of plagiarism and his somewhat Vogelesque approach, don't be. I don't want the thread to be a debate over the cultural origins of the Book of Mormon (i.e. 19th century vs. antiquity). Stick to the intent of Moroni 10:3-5. Is Moroni speaking of his last sermon on spiritual gifts or of the record as a whole?

This is an exciting insight. I'd love to read your comments.

I don’t see it. I look at Moroni 10 as a continuation of Moroni 1 and Mormon 8, as follows:

Mormon 8
:

1 Behold I, Moroni, do finish the record of my father, Mormon. Behold, I have but few things to write, which things I have been commanded by my father.

2 And now it came to pass that after the great and tremendous battle at Cumorah, behold, the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed.

3 And my father also was killed by them, and I even remain alone to write the sad tale of the destruction of my people. But behold, they are gone, and I fulfil the commandment of my father. And whether they will slay me, I know not.

4
Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not.

5 Behold, my father hath made this record, and he hath written the intent thereof. And behold,
I would write it also if I had room upon the plates, but I have not; and ore I have none, for I am alone
. My father hath been slain in battle, and all my kinsfolk, and I have not friends nor whither to go; and how long the Lord will suffer that I may live I know not.

* * *

14 And
I am the same who hideth up this record unto the Lord; the plates thereof are of no worth,
because of the commandment of the Lord. For he truly saith that no one shall have them to get gain;
but the record thereof is of great worth;
and whoso shall bring it to light, him will the Lord bless.

15 For
none can have power to bring it to light save it be given him of God;
for God wills that it shall be done with an eye single to his glory, or the welfare of the ancient and long dispersed covenant people of the Lord.

16 And blessed be he that shall bring this thing to light; for
it shall be brought out of darkness unto light, according to the word of God; yea, it shall be brought out of the earth, and it shall shine forth out of darkness, and come unto the knowledge of the people;
and it shall be done by the power of God.

17 And if there be faults they be the faults of a man. But behold, we know no fault; nevertheless God knoweth all things; therefore, he that condemneth, let him be aware lest he shall be in danger of hell fire.

18 And
he that saith: Show unto me, or ye shall be smitten—let him beware lest he commandeth that which is forbidden of the Lord
.

19 For behold, the same that judgeth rashly shall be judged rashly again; for according to his works shall his wages be; therefore, he that smiteth shall be smitten again, of the Lord.

* * *

23 Search the prophecies of Isaiah. Behold, I cannot write them. Yea, behold I say unto you, that
those saints who have gone before me, who have possessed this land, shall cry, yea, even from the dust will they cry unto the Lord; and as the Lord liveth he will remember the covenant which he hath made with them
.

24 And he knoweth their prayers, that they were in behalf of their brethren. . . .

25 And behold, their prayers were also in behalf of him that the Lord should suffer to bring these things forth.

26 And
no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it;
and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

Moroni 1
:

1 Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared,
I had supposed not to have written more,
but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.

Moroni 10
:

1 Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good;
and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites;
and I would that they should know that more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

2
And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

“Receive these things” refers to the whole of the plates that comprise the Book of Mormon, which he intends to bury, and expresses confidence that they shall “surely” come (Mormon 8:26) to his brethren the Lamanites. His entire focus is on the Book of Mormon itself, not the few final words. I think it is a twisted way of looking at it to read that limited meaning into it.

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Sounds odd in that on one hand, if I am understanding correctly, which I might not be, he presumes the historicity of the BOM in that there was a real person Moroni who wrote the words, which the entire church has somehow misinterpreted for all these years, and then mentioning the "plagiarism of Paul" as if it is a 19th century document.

Sorry- I know you said this:

I don't want the thread to be a debate over the cultural origins of the Book of Mormon (i.e. 19th century vs. antiquity). Stick to the intent of Moroni 10:3-5. Is Moroni speaking of his last sermon on spiritual gifts or of the record as a whole?

But for me, the 19th century issue kind of overshadows the strength of his argument, makes it somewhat inconsistent, and that makes the interpretation itself kind of a moot point. If it is a 19th century document, which is what he is implying, it doesn't matter what interpretation we take from this fictional Moroni character.

On the other hand, if indeed we accept that his central argument is correct- that it has been misinterpreted, the "plagiarism from Paul" part is inconsistent with the rest of the thesis.

The inconsistency just makes me want to throw out the whole thing as confused.

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Sounds odd in that on one hand, if I am understanding correctly, which I might not be, he presumes the historicity of the BOM in that there was a real person Moroni who wrote the words, which the entire church has somehow misinterpreted for all these years, and then mentioning the "plagiarism of Paul" as if it is a 19th century document.

Sorry- I know you said this:

But for me, the 19th century issue kind of overshadows the strength of his argument, makes it somewhat inconsistent, and that makes the interpretation itself kind of a moot point. If it is a 19th century document, which is what he is implying, it doesn't matter what interpretation we take from this fictional Moroni character.

On the other hand, if indeed we accept that his central argument is correct- that it has been misinterpreted, the "plagiarism from Paul" part is inconsistent with the rest of the thesis.

The inconsistency just makes me want to throw out the whole thing as confused.

Erase the 19th century parts and tell me what you think about the argument.

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I don’t see it. I look at Moroni 10 as a continuation of Moroni 1 and Mormon 8, as follows:

While I do see it and certainly appreciate the OP's premise, after thinking about it more I do think the connection with prior chapters provides the most compelling indicator that Moroni was exhorting us to know the truthfulness of the book, and emphasized the reliance upon spiritual gifts as an essential part of the truth-seeking process he describes.

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While I do see it and certainly appreciate the OP's premise, after thinking about it more I do think the connection with prior chapters provides the most compelling indicator that Moroni was exhorting us to know the truthfulness of the book, and emphasized the reliance upon spiritual gifts as an essential part of the truth-seeking process he describes.

I still don't see it. Even if you ignore the earlier chapters, and just look at it in the context of Moroni 10, it still doesn't make sense:

Moroni 10
:

1 Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good;
and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites;
and I would that they should know that more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

2
And I seal up these records
[i.e. all the BOM plates],
after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall
read these things
[i.e. all the plates, referred to in verse 2],
if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that
ye shall receive these things
[i.e. all the plates],
and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall
receive these things
[i.e. all the plates],
I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if
these things
[i.e. all the plates]
are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Verse 2 is clearly referring to all the Book of Mormon plates, and verses 3 and 4 are clearly referring to verse 2. I don't see how it can be read differently.

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I still don't see it. Even if you ignore the earlier chapters, and just look at it in the context of Moroni 10, it still doesn't make sense:

I can see the other person’s way of looking at it, or how he arrived at his conclusion. But I don’t think he has much of an argument given the points you made. Sometimes looking at things the way he did does lead to some valid insights so I admire that kind of pondering process, as long as one holds to the truth and lets go of their errors once better observations and insights are made.

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I still don't see it. Even if you ignore the earlier chapters, and just look at it in the context of Moroni 10, it still doesn't make sense:

Moroni 10
:

1 Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good;
and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites;
and I would that they should know that more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

2
And I seal up these records
[i.e. all the BOM plates],
after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall
read these things
[i.e. all the plates, referred to in verse 2],
if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that
ye shall receive these things
[i.e. all the plates],
and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall
receive these things
[i.e. all the plates],
I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if
these things
[i.e. all the plates]
are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Verse 2 is clearly referring to all the Book of Mormon plates, and verses 3 and 4 are clearly referring to verse 2. I don't see how it can be read differently.

I think you are right to think that "these records" does refer to the scriptures up to that point in the book, but you're missing the point. Moroni is saying that "these things" refers to "a few words" not "these records." That argument is more credible when you read verse 29. He refers to the same promise, but does so after "a few words." Why would he do that if the promise were for the everything and not the extra "few words?"

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I do agree with the principle already mentioned that the promise applies to anything, even though it may be referring specifically to some verses in Moroni. It's like Isaiah's words which have meaning for present circumstances as well as future.

The thought that comes to mind are the great literary classics. Why are they classics, because they have people and situations which any generation can relate to. The scriptures of course are far more powerful than literary classics and they have the same affect in that we can relate to the stories and the situations no matter who we are or where we live or what time we live in.

I do think that emphasis should be put on not just a one time prayer to determine if something is true but on the reading, the pondering in one's heart and the receiving. Too often I've seen people maybe read a little bit and then expect an answer. Sometimes it may take years before one really "receives" these things. It certainly did in my case. I knew the church was true for other reasons and accepted the BOM because of that; but I didn't get a testimony of the BOM itself until years later, after much reading and pondering. When one receives something may be different for every person.

I think the "sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ" comes after one has done the work and not just with a few missionary lessons. One may get a manifestation of the truth about the restored church and still not have that manifestation about every part of the church.

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I think you are right to think that "these records" does refer to the scriptures up to that point in the book, but you're missing the point. Moroni is saying that "these things" refers to "a few words" not "these records."

Where does he say that? I am definitely missing the point there! :)

That argument is more credible when you read verse 29.

How? In verse 29 he says that God will reveal to us that what he (Moroni) has written is true. How does that override verses 1, 2, 3, and 4, where he says that God will reveal to us that all the Book of Mormon is true? :unsure:

He refers to the same promise, but does so after "a few words." Why would he do that if the promise were for the everything and not the extra "few words?"

Sorry, but you have lost me there completely. :wacko:

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Well stated Deborah.

Zerinus, do you not see that verse 29 says, "And God shall show unto you," IOW, restating the promise of 3-5 and "that which I have written is true." IOW the past 23 verses since he gave the promise in 3-5?

I honestly don't. Verses 1-4 says that God will reveal to you that ALL the Book of Mormon is true. Verse 5 says that by the power of the Holy Ghost you can know the truth of everything. Verse 7 says that by the Holy Ghost we can know that Jesus is. And verse 29 says that God will reveal to you that what Moroni has written is true. I don't see how verse 29 overrides what it says in verses 1-4.

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Erase the 19th century parts and tell me what you think about the argument.

Inconclusive.

Really, I think the promise is for the whole book, directly or indirectly, because what he is teaching is that you can know the truth of "all things" from the Holy Ghost. A subset of the "truth of all things" includes 1- the BOM in general and 2- that section. To me, that is what the passage is saying. If he had wanted it to apply only to that passage, he would have just born testimony of that one section- instead it says "all things", implying including that passage as part of a greater whole.

But still, as a devil's advocate, it can be seen as Joseph self-justifying and confirming the whole Moroni Promise process perhaps fraudulently - so the 19th century aspect is still very important; and frankly the "Paul plagiarism" mention doesn't help his argument, in seeming to underline the 19th century origin argument.

To me, the whole thing is a bit muddled to be frank.

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Too many folks entirely miss the boat here. Moroni stated, and the penultimate verse in the entire book is:

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

First off, assuming an Hebraic Nephite language in Moroni's days, the English translation "things" probably refers to a Hebrew word that also means "words." It is thus the TRVTH of all things/words that are amenable to revelation as Capital "T" TRVTH.

It is, moreover, the case that, since we perceive all phenomenal in the natural world via our language, that, since the TRVTH of all "things/words" conveys the TRVTH of all phenomena, the Dinge an sich as well all emanations therefrom. This being the case, we know via Moroni's promise that G-d, through the medium of His Spirit, can and will make known the TRVTH of His entire creation.

This is amazing stuff, and only an inveterate and obdurate-in-the-face-of-all-evidence-to-the-contrary antiMormon would so profoundly miss Moroni's point. Why miniaturize a metapoint?

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