A New Interpretation Of "Moroni'S Promise"

[mfbukowski]

Too many folks entirely miss the boat here. Moroni stated, and the penultimate verse in the entire book is:

First off, assuming an Hebraic Nephite language in Moroni's days, the English translation "things" probably refers to a Hebrew word that also means "words." It is thus the TRVTH of all things/words that are amenable to revelation as Capital "T" TRVTH.

It is, moreover, the case that, since we perceive all phenomenal in the natural world via our language, that, since the TRVTH of all "things/words" conveys the TRVTH of all phenomena, the Dinge an sich as well all emanations therefrom. This being the case, we know via Moroni's promise that G-d, through the medium of His Spirit, can and will make known the TRVTH of His entire creation.

This is amazing stuff, and only an inveterate and obdurate-in-the-face-of-all-evidence-to-the-contrary antiMormon would so profoundly miss Moroni's point. Why miniaturize a metapoint?

Exactamundo!

I am absolutely fascinated by the notion that in Hebrew there is a word which can be translated as "thing/word"! How "postmodern" can these dang Hebrews get anyway? That is totally cool! I have always had a secret desire to have been born Jewish- clearly I was Jewish in a previous life. (Ok maybe it was an ancestor's previous life! )

What's the word?

[David T]

Loyd has posted a response on his blog:

http://loydo38.blogspot.com/2011/05/more-on-moronis-promise.html

[TAO]

Okey... I am going to try to respond to this, if one doesn't mind. =)

The problem with the first criticism should be obvious to most anyone. A fellow by the name of zerinus wrote:

I still don't see it. Even if you ignore the earlier chapters, and just look at it in the context of Moroni 10, it still doesn't make sense:

Moroni 10:

1 Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good;

and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites;

and I would that they should know that more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.2

And I seal up these records [i.e. all the BOM plates], after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall

read these things [i.e. all the plates, referred to in verse 2],

if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that

ye shall receive these things [i.e. all the plates],

and ponder it in your hearts.4 And when ye shall

receive these things [i.e. all the plates],

I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if

these things [i.e. all the plates]

are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Verse 2 is clearly referring to all the Book of Mormon plates, and verses 3 and 4 are clearly referring to verse 2. I don't see how it can be read differently.

The obvious response to this sad criticism is that he has to assume his traditional reading in order to make this claim. With his simplistic reasoning, one could just switch things around to make a counter argument. Like this:

Moroni 10:1 Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good;

and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites;

and I would that they should know that more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.2

And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you

[i.e. the words that follow vs 5]

.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall

read these things [i.e. Moroni's words, referred to in verse 2],

if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that

ye shall receive these things [i.e. Moroni's words],

and ponder it in your hearts.4 And when ye shall

receive these things [i.e. Moroni's words],

I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if

these things [i.e. Moroni's]

are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

zerinus's criticism, of course, ignores all of the other arguments that I made in my original post, and especially recognizes the end of Moroni's mini-sermon (verse 29), where Moroni explicitly says that "And God shall show unto you, that that which I have written is true." With vs 29 in mind, it becomes very clear that Moroni is encasing his sermon by the invitation for readers to ask if the contents of his sermon are true. In other words, the sermon begins with a plea for readers to "ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true" and ends with the reminder that "God shall show unto you, that that which I have written is true." It really doesn't get much clearer than this.

Okey, let's start with the first bit - "all the BoM plates" vs. "the words that follow vs ?". Now, if we look back a few chapters, at Ether 5, we see these verses:

1 And now I, Moroni, have written the words which were commanded me, according to my memory; and I have told you the things which I have ^asealed up; therefore touch them not in order that ye may translate; for that thing is forbidden you, except by and by it shall be wisdom in God.

2 And behold, ye may be privileged that ye may show the plates unto ^athose who shall assist to bring forth this work;

3 And unto ^athree shall they be shown by the power of God; wherefore they shall ^bknow of a surety that these things are ^ctrue.

4 And in the mouth of three ^awitnesses shall these things be established; and the ^btestimony of three, and this work, in the which shall be shown forth the power of God and also his word, of which the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost bear record—and all this shall stand as a testimony against the world at the last day.

As we can see here, the plates (all of them excluding Moroni) have already been sealed up (and Moroni is recalling Ether through memory).

Therefore, I would apply that the things he is referring to, are all of the book of Moroni.

However, considering verse 5, Moroni is also saying that the statement in verse 4 can apply to all things - not just the Book of Mormon - anything, I believe, with the help of the spirit to guide you.

Thus, the common view of the verse, though indirect, is correct application, due to verse 5. After all, verse 4 shows correct verse 5, and verse 5 shows correct the entire BoM. Also, I don't think Moroni would have a problem with us using the verses like that, even if it is slightly indirect, as he was a pretty earnest and kind guy, I believe.

Following zerinus weak criticism, a fellow who goes by USU78 made this supposed criticism that would astound most any cognitive person. He writes:

First off, assuming an Hebraic Nephite language in Moroni's days, the English translation "things" probably refers to a Hebrew word that also means "words." It is thus the TRVTH of

all

things/words that are amenable to revelation as Capital "T" TRVTH.It is, moreover, the case that, since we perceive all phenomenal in the natural world via our language, that, since the TRVTH of all "things/words" conveys the TRVTH of all phenomena, the

Dinge an sich

as well all emanations therefrom. This being the case, we know via Moroni's promise that G-d, through the medium of His Spirit, can and will make known the TRVTH of His entire creation.This is amazing stuff, and only an inveterate and obdurate-in-the-face-of-all-evidence-to-the-contrary antiMormon would so profoundly miss Moroni's point. Why miniaturize a metapoint?

Of course his most laughable line is his pharisaic claim that I am some "obdurate-in-the-face-of-all-evidence-to-the-contrary antiMormon," but there are several other laughable things in his response.

1. His assumption that we have any clue as to what the Nephite language looked like by the time of Moroni.

2. His mysterious Hebrew word that means both "things" and "words"

3. His laughable use of "dinge an sich," as if he wanted people to think he was smart.

4. Finally, and most importantly, if this Hebrew "words/things" word existed, it wouldn't criticize my argument, but would actually support it. If we assume that Moroni was using the same word for "things" and "words" (let's use "&*%") then this is Moroni would be saying:

2

And I seal up these records, after

I have spoken a few words

[

&*%]

by way of exhortation unto you.

3

Behold, I would exhort you that when

ye shall read these things

[

&*%]

, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4

And when ye shall

receive these things

[

&*%]

, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ,

if these things

[

&*%]

are not true

; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

According to USU78's own silly criticism, the "things" that Moroni is referring to are his "words." Duh.

USU was criticizing you for ignoring verse 5, and that it universalizes the concept taught in itself, and verse 4.

To really understand Moroni's plea, however, is to understand what Moroni's primary concerns were for his readers. If you look at his previous last sermon in Mormon 9, it becomes obvious that Moroni was heavily concerned with the people who would read the Book of Mormon would be people who did not believe in miracles. Here he gives a very similar sermon to that which he gives in Moroni 10:

7

And again I speak unto you who deny the revelations of God, and say that they are done away, that there are no revelations, nor prophecies, nor gifts, nor healing, nor speaking with tongues, and the interpretation of tongues;

8

Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.

9

For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

10

And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles.

11

But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.

12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.

13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death.

14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still.

15

And now, O all ye that have imagined up unto yourselves a god who can do no miracles, I would ask of you, have all these things passed, of which I have spoken? Has the end come yet? Behold I say unto you, Nay; and God has not ceased to be a God of miracles.

16

Behold, are not the things that God hath wrought marvelous in our eyes? Yea, and who can comprehend the marvelous works of God?

17

Who shall say that it was not a miracle that by his word the heaven and the earth should be; and by the power of his word man was created of the dust of the earth; and by the power of his word have miracles been wrought?

18

And who shall say that Jesus Christ did not do many mighty miracles? And there were many mighty miracles wrought by the hands of the apostles.

19

And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.

20

And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.

21

Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth.

With this in mind, his words in 10:3 should be pretty clear: "Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts." The context that Moroni wanted "these things" to be read in is in the context of the miraculous workings of the unchanging God--the very topic of his sermon that he gives when he has "spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you" and the very topic that he says that "God shall show unto you, that that which I have written is true."

Seriously, how hard is it to see this?

Not very hard, imo. Moroni wants us to remember the mercy of the Lord, and to know that these books were delivered to us by the power of his hands, a blessing and miracle and mercy beyond almost all others that compare. Christ's sacrifice is perhaps more miraculous, and the creation as well, in certain cases, but there are very few things less miraculous than the BoM.

How do I know that Moroni is referring to all the BoM with the latter parts of verse 10? It is because of the contents of Ether 12 - Moroni views all the things that happened in the BoM, his past, as valuable and as miracles indeed, performed by faith. So my conclusion is, that though he is describing the smaller section in the beginning of verse 10, twoards the end, he shifts to the entire BoM, and the concept described in verse 4 is universalized via verse 5. =)

In addition, as said earlier, I don't think Moroni would have a problem with us using the verses the way we do... he likes all faithful things, all things virtuous and truthful, and lovely =D.

Best Wishes, and I hope you are having a wonderful evening =),

TAO

[USU78]

Okey... I am going to try to respond to this, if one doesn't mind. =)

Okey, let's start with the first bit - "all the BoM plates" vs. "the words that follow vs ?". Now, if we look back a few chapters, at Ether 5, we see these verses:

As we can see here, the plates (all of them excluding Moroni) have already been sealed up (and Moroni is recalling Ether through memory).

Therefore, I would apply that the things he is referring to, are all of the book of Moroni.

However, considering verse 5, Moroni is also saying that the statement in verse 4 can apply to all things - not just the Book of Mormon - anything, I believe, with the help of the spirit to guide you.

Thus, the common view of the verse, though indirect, is correct application, due to verse 5. After all, verse 4 shows correct verse 5, and verse 5 shows correct the entire BoM. Also, I don't think Moroni would have a problem with us using the verses like that, even if it is slightly indirect, as he was a pretty earnest and kind guy, I believe.

USU was criticizing you for ignoring verse 5, and that it universalizes the concept taught in itself, and verse 4.

Not very hard, imo. Moroni wants us to remember the mercy of the Lord, and to know that these books were delivered to us by the power of his hands, a blessing and miracle and mercy beyond almost all others that compare. Christ's sacrifice is perhaps more miraculous, and the creation as well, in certain cases, but there are very few things less miraculous than the BoM.

How do I know that Moroni is referring to all the BoM with the latter parts of verse 10? It is because of the contents of Ether 12 - Moroni views all the things that happened in the BoM, his past, as valuable and as miracles indeed, performed by faith. So my conclusion is, that though he is describing the smaller section in the beginning of verse 10, twoards the end, he shifts to the entire BoM, and the concept described in verse 4 is universalized via verse 5. =)

In addition, as said earlier, I don't think Moroni would have a problem with us using the verses the way we do... he likes all faithful things, all things virtuous and truthful, and lovely =D.

Best Wishes, and I hope you are having a wonderful evening =),

TAO

Thanks, Tao, for your kind words. I guess your correspondent over there has never heard of the following:

דָּבָר שֵם ז' object, thing, item ; event, occurrence, happening ; anything ; דברים - belongings ; דברים - what one has to say; writings ; לדברי - in the words of..., in someone's opinion, according to ....

[zerinus]

Loyd has posted a response on his blog:

http://loydo38.blogspot.com/2011/05/more-on-moronis-promise.html

LOL! I read that. Not impressed! If he wants to debate this subject with me, he will come here and join this thread, and responds to my posts, starting with post #13. I am not interested in replying to his Blog. But to reply briefly, his argument doesn't add up. The most obvious mistake he makes is that what Moroni means by "after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you," is the words that he is writing starting with Moroni 10:1, not starting with Moroni 10:6. In other words, Moroni 10:1-5 are part of the "few words by way of exhortation" that he is addressing to his future readers. The "words of exhortation" starts with verse 1, not with verse 6; and verses 1-5 make it clear that the reference is to the whole of the Book of Mormon. Thus his alternative reading of Moroni 10:1-5 is not the most logical and natural way of reading those verses.

[David T]

Zerinus,

Loyd was banned here a while ago due to disagreements with a Mod. He would post here if he could. Feel free to take it over to MDB - he posts there.

[volgadon]

Thanks, Tao, for your kind words. I guess your correspondent over there has never heard of the following:

דָּבָר שֵם ז' object, thing, item ; event, occurrence, happening ; anything ; דברים - belongings ; דברים - what one has to say; writings ; לדברי - in the words of..., in someone's opinion, according to ....

Absolutely. Davar certainly is not your "mysterious Hebrew word that means both "things" and "words"." A glance at most any Hebrew dictionary of any strata of Hebrew will reveal as much.

[USU78]

Exactamundo!

I am absolutely fascinated by the notion that in Hebrew there is a word which can be translated as "thing/word"! How "postmodern" can these dang Hebrews get anyway? That is totally cool! I have always had a secret desire to have been born Jewish- clearly I was Jewish in a previous life. (Ok maybe it was an ancestor's previous life! )

What's the word?

Thunderbird!