mfbukowski Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 But LDS scholars seem to be saying that the Apostacy was led by evil spirits, .....Huh?Where has an LDS scholar ever said that?
inquiringmind Posted May 7, 2011 Author Posted May 7, 2011 Huh?Where has an LDS scholar ever said that?http://maxwellinstit...108&chapid=1232
mfbukowski Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 But LDS scholars seem to be saying that the Apostacy was led by evil spirits, and John seems to say that such spirits couldn't confess principle A--so how could the Church they led, and those that followed these spirits, continue to uphold that principle?Well I think that article you cite, written by an LDS scholar in fact cites scriptures as the authority for the statement- I suppose it is a trivial point, thinking about it.But follow your own logic here.Principle A= "Christ came in the flesh".Suppose "evil spirits" could "confess" principles BCDE- that is, all principles except principle A, which John says such spirits couldn't confess, wouldn't it make sense that the only principle which would "survive" would be principle A?On this logic, it was the only principle that the evil spirits could NOT "confess", therefore that truth remained.So that statement by John can be seen as a prophecy of the apostasy, imo."Evil spirits" are not men- they influence or "inspire" men. So if they inspire evil, on this view, by "confessing" it and influencing people to believe it, the only truth they could not corrupt is the only that survived- that Christ came in the flesh.
Kingsson Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 When did the early Church lose the keys of the priesthood, and become totally apostate?Was it right after the Apostles died, in the 5th century, or the tenth century?[1]The True Church has never lost the keys, WHOEVER TOLD YOU THAT??. If you check out the true Church's history, You see the power, Authority, Gifts of the Spirit, Healings, miracles and casting out devils has always been in the Church, There has always been some Church or Church's doing these things.[2] The Apostles, Prophets, Evengelist, Pastor and Teachers have always been in the Church. Read the Bible and you'll see they never stoped.See Ephesians 3: 20--21, And you'll find the power is in the Church throughout ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END. We re still in the "ALL AGES", and the world "HASEN'T ENDED YET".Then go into Chapter 4: 11--13, And you'll see that Jesus gave these Ministry Gifts to the Church, The Bible wasn't written in Chapter and verse, The translator put them in for clearety. So Ch 4 continues from Ch 3.So the Apostles, power, authority and keys never left the Church.
Calm Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 [1]The True Church has never lost the keys, WHOEVER TOLD YOU THAT??. If you check out the true Church's history, You see the power, Authority, Gifts of the Spirit, Healings, miracles and casting out devils has always been in the Church, There has always been some Church or Church's doing these things.[2] The Apostles, Prophets, Evengelist, Pastor and Teachers have always been in the Church. Read the Bible and you'll see they never stoped.See Ephesians 3: 20--21, And you'll find the power is in the Church throughout ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END. We re still in the "ALL AGES", and the world "HASEN'T ENDED YET".Then go into Chapter 4: 11--13, And you'll see that Jesus gave these Ministry Gifts to the Church, The Bible wasn't written in Chapter and verse, The translator put them in for clearety. So Ch 4 continues from Ch 3.So the Apostles, power, authority and keys never left the Church.King's son, are you Catholic or Orthodox?
Kingsson Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 King's son, are you Catholic or Orthodox?I am certainly not a catholic, I am just a person who believes the Bible and experiences the power of God, Like thousands have throughoutthe Church's history.
Kingsson Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 Here are some scriptures I once copied down which could be interpreted as evidence of the beginnings of the apostasy already starting.2 Tim. 4: 3-43 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Matt. 24: 2424 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Acts 20: 2929 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Gal. 1: 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 2 Thes. 2: 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Tim. 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 2 Tim. 3: 55 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 2 Pet. 2: 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. Jude 1: 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Rev. 2: 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liarsAll those scriptures apply to the mormons ,Exept 2 Thess 2: 3. Which doesn't mean a falling away, But a "TAKING AWAY". Read it in it's and you'll see it is talking about the taking away to heaven of the TRUE CHURCH before the anti-Christ can come.
Kingsson Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 Of those, this is my favorite: Galatians 1:Of course it is ironic that this quote is often used against us, but in context it is clear that we believe that the gospel we teach is indeed the same gospel Paul taught- "not received of man...but by the revelation of Jesus Christ".[1]Galatians 1: 6--8. Is talking about the mormons.[2] You don't preach the Biblical gospel.[3]You didn't get it by the revelation of Jesus.[4]You deceive people into thinking you are the true church, But when it comes down to the real truth of what mormons beleive, It is far from God's truth as recorded in the Bible.
mfbukowski Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 [1]Galatians 1: 6--8. Is talking about the mormons.[2] You don't preach the Biblical gospel.[3]You didn't get it by the revelation of Jesus.[4]You deceive people into thinking you are the true church, But when it comes down to the real truth of what mormons beleive, It is far from God's truth as recorded in the Bible.I am not a fundamentalist, and there are no arguments here, just your beliefs and interpretations. I feel no need whatsoever to respond. If you want a serious discussion, make a serious post. I see no conflicts with my beliefs and the Bible whatsoever.
Vance Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 I am not a fundamentalist, and there are no arguments here, just your beliefs and interpretations. I feel no need whatsoever to respond. If you want a serious discussion, make a serious post. I see no conflicts with my beliefs and the Bible whatsoever.Ditto!
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 [1]Galatians 1: 6--8. Is talking about the mormons.It is? Were does it even say the word mormon? Talk about reading into the text that which is not there.[2] You don't preach the Biblical gospel.And you do? That is funny.[3]You didn't get it by the revelation of Jesus.How do you know?[4]You deceive people into thinking you are the true church, But when it comes down to the real truth of what mormons beleive, It is far from God's truth as recorded in the Bible.Yeah, I have heard that line before. So tell me, were in the bible does it say "The bible is God's word"?This should be fun.
ELF1024 Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 [1]Galatians 1: 6--8. Is talking about the mormons.[2] You don't preach the Biblical gospel.[3]You didn't get it by the revelation of Jesus.[4]You deceive people into thinking you are the true church, But when it comes down to the real truth of what mormons beleive, It is far from God's truth as recorded in the Bible.You do understand that the Bible wasn't even a book until several hundred years after Christ and was decided upon by a bunch of men.
Programmer Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 When did the early Church lose the keys of the priesthood, and become totally apostate?Was it right after the Apostles died, in the 5th century, or the tenth century?In all practicality it doesn't matter when it happened. We live multiple centuries after it happened, and thus the timing of it is long a moot point for us. What I know is that the old religions mixed with Greek philosophy have absolutely nothing compelling to inspire people today. Sure people may be entertained at a mass, but it's equivalent spiritual value to be found in attending a symphony. In other words, a mass is a perfect way to keep people completely and perfectly ignorant of the real truths of Jesus's Gospel.
mfbukowski Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 In all practicality it doesn't matter when it happened. We live multiple centuries after it happened, and thus the timing of it is long a moot point for us. What I know is that the old religions mixed with Greek philosophy have absolutely nothing compelling to inspire people today. Sure people may be entertained at a mass, but it's equivalent spiritual value to be found in attending a symphony. In other words, a mass is a perfect way to keep people completely and perfectly ignorant of the real truths of Jesus's Gospel.Let me say that, as a former Catholic, that was REALLY uncalled for and inappropriate.And I am one of the grumpy old men around here, so if it bothers me, I can't imagine what a faithful Catholic would think of it.Suppose they said the same thing about our endowment? Gosh, you could at least pretend to be civil, couldn't you?
Calm Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 Sure people may be entertained at a mass, but it's equivalent spiritual value to be found in attending a symphony. In other words, a mass is a perfect way to keep people completely and perfectly ignorant of the real truths of Jesus's Gospel.Having been to mass and to symphonies, I completely disagree.Even without being Catholic, I felt the Spirit there teaching of Christ and his Atonement.
Kingsson Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 It is? Were does it even say the word mormon? Talk about reading into the text that which is not there.And you do? That is funny.How do you know?Yeah, I have heard that line before. So tell me, were in the bible does it say "The bible is God's word"?This should be fun.God has said in His word, [The BIble], You cannot add to it or take away from it. So, The Bible does record God's word. It also says the Bible is all we need to make us compleate.
Kingsson Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 You do understand that the Bible wasn't even a book until several hundred years after Christ and was decided upon by a bunch of men.The words recorded in the Bible have been here since God first started speaking to man. God inspirered the translators to put in the Bible as we have it today, Everything we need to know, And all we need to know.God warns in His word, [the Bible] the dangers of adding to and taking away from His words that are recorded in the Bible.
Kingsson Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 It is? Were does it even say the word mormon? Talk about reading into the text that which is not there.And you do? That is funny.How do you know?Yeah, I have heard that line before. So tell me, were in the bible does it say "The bible is God's word"?This should be fun.[1]I do preach the TRUE GOSPEL as recorded in the gospels, qith healings and miracles.[2]I know you didn't get you gospel from the revelation of Jesus, Because the so-called God and Jesus who appeared to Joseph Smith, told him lies.
Kingsson Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 I am not a fundamentalist, and there are no arguments here, just your beliefs and interpretations. I feel no need whatsoever to respond. If you want a serious discussion, make a serious post. I see no conflicts with my beliefs and the Bible whatsoever.I don't interpret the Bible, I let it interpret itself. If you beliefs don't agree with the Bible, Then you have wrong beliefs.
Calm Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 I don't interpret the Bible, I let it interpret itself. How do you know that interpretation is right? That it is the one that is actually the Bible interpreting itself and not something that outside influence has been brought into?
Traela Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 God has said in His word, [The BIble], You cannot add to it or take away from it. So, The Bible does record God's word. It also says the Bible is all we need to make us compleate.So did the Catholics add to the Bible, or did the Protestants take away from it?
Kingsson Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 How do you know that interpretation is right? That it is the one that is actually the Bible interpreting itself and not something that outside influence has been brought into?The Bible is the Bible, It is God's word. You either believe what it says or you don't. You don't interpret it, You let it interpret itself.The Holy Spirit reveals the truth of God's word,[The Bible] to the one He know will except the truth.The mormons say the authority was lost and the mormons have to restore it back into the church. But the Bible doesn't sat the power or authority will be lost, In fact it says it will be in the TRUE CHURCH, Throughout ALL GAGES, WORLD WITHOUT END.So when the demonic spirit told Joseph Smith the authority and power had ceased, he was lying.So the mormon church started with a lie and has carried on lying ever since.The Bible is true and we have to believe it. The mormons say thet believe the Bible, So they'll have to admit the evil sprit told J Smith a lie.Either the Bible is true, Or the sprit that appeared to Joseph Smith was true, They both can't be true as one contradicts the other.BUT I KNOW IT IS THE BIBLE THAT IS TRUE. As God confirms it with signs following.
Kingsson Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 So did the Catholics add to the Bible, or did the Protestants take away from it?The catholics addad books to the Bible, I have seen some writtings from some of those added books, And they don't agree with scripture.The Bible as the protestants have it today, Is all we need to make us compleat 2 Tim 3: 16.God, In His wisdom inspirered the translators to put in the Bible [as we have it today] all that is necessary for us.There is no need for the book of mormon.
Vance Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 The Bible as the protestants have it today, Is all we need to make us compleat[sic] 2 Tim 3: 16.So what about the parts that were written AFTER 2 Tim? God, In His wisdom inspirered[sic] the translators to put in the Bible [as we have it today] all that is necessary for us.Catholic translators or Protestant translators or JW translators?
Skylla Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 Kingsson: Tone it down and review the board guidelines please.Skylla
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