The Great Apostacy

[coolrok7]

Vance,I’ve already answered your point in which it appears you’ve chosen to ignore.

The immediate context for the point I’m making in Paul’s letter in 1 Timothy as well as what was recorded by Luke in the context of the big picture of the events concerning the rise and spreading of the Church at large.

This here is addressing a specific location in which Paul was on his way to Jerusalem where the later recorded events of him appealing to Caesar for the false accusation of the Jews that had had him arrested (You can also read Acts 26 for more context concerning the points I’m making):

And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. (Acts 20:22-32)

I had appealed to Paul in his instruction to Timothy in which the Holy Spirit says “some” will fall away (you and Joseph Smith for that matter, are a far cry concerning this from the Holy Spirit).

I choose to listen to the Holy Spirit as it was He who was directing Paul in, which Paul eventually lost his life in martyrdom in Rome (as well as Peter).

Jesus is recorded here in Luke as saying (goes along with what was told to Paul above):

But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls. (Luke 21:12-19)

Mola, the Bible contains the message of the water of life in the Holy Spirit which is available to all. I'll listen to Him and His message over and against yours (in the bondage of the spirit of Mormonism which is not the Holy Spirit of the Biblical message).

[Vance]

coolrok,

I have already addressed your concerns which you continue to ignore.

So, here it is again.

Acts 20:28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

coolrok,

What part of "not sparing the flock" is so difficult to understand? You seem to ignore that the flock (church) is NOT spared.

[Vance]

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

What part of "overcome them" is so difficult to understand?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Vance,I’ve already answered your point in which it appears you’ve chosen to ignore.

The immediate context for the point I’m making in Paul’s letter in 1 Timothy as well as what was recorded by Luke in the context of the big picture of the events concerning the rise and spreading of the Church at large.

We are not atlking about Timothy or any of the epistles of Paul. We are talking about is recorded in Acts and Revelations. You seem to not get that? I do not understand such a mentality as to ignore the evidence.

Mola, the Bible contains the message of the water of life in the Holy Spirit which is available to all. I'll listen to Him and His message over and against yours (in the bondage of the spirit of Mormonism which is not the Holy Spirit of the Biblical message).

Ha, and you do that plugging and closing your ears and eyes to the very bible that you claim to know. Again we are talking about what is in Acts and Revelations. Please, I exort you to pay attention.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

What part of "overcome them" is so difficult to understand?

One must also ask, that if the everlasting Gospel is on the earth, why is it fortold that an angel from Heaven will come down to earth with the everlasting gospel to preach to those on earth?

[Questing Beast]

@MRSR: what part of "Everlasting Gospel" is missing from the Earth during the intervening centuries from Christ and his apostles to Joseph Smith? Priesthood power? Sealing keys? Only Mormons assert so. Every other Christian on the planet sees this differently.

I used to see differences that are not there. In fact there are only opinions. And we can argue opinions all day without benefit. There is no tie-breaker operating: the sects, denominations and religions are legion. And it doesn't seem to bother "God" in the least. It sure doesn't bother me. Let people believe whatsoever they will or must....

[coolrok7]

not sparing the flock. . . . and to overcome them

Again Vance, “some’ not “all” as contrasted with “complete” “total”. I already addressed the first context (which you ignored- your problem, not mine). Also, you sound rather childish to me, parroting things I say.

Next quote from the Book of Revelation and is still future in that the term “them” is applied to believers and is not apostasy but people being overcome which probably means being killed in that context (the anti-Christ/son of Perdition which can be associated with the “beast” of Revelation- Paul and John briefly address this in their letters) .

Just as what happened in the first century and even since then in which Christians are killed in the context of their faith, which would be martyrdom.

It is also I believe not the Church being raptured away as some would say.

(Mola)We are not atlking about Timothy or any of the epistles of Paul. We are talking about is recorded in Acts and Revelations. You seem to not get that? I do not understand such a mentality as to ignore the evidence. . . .

Ha, and you do that plugging and closing your ears and eyes to the very bible that you claim to know. Again we are talking about what is in Acts and Revelations. Please, I exort you to pay attention.

The opening post of the thread concerning apostasy (the answer is never were the keys lost or taken away or was there a “complete” “total” apostasy):

When did the early Church lose the keys of the priesthood, and become totally apostate?

Was it right after the Apostles died, in the 5th century, or the tenth century?

Mola, I can refer to anything in the Bible that has relevance for the defense of what is being asked of me after I posted my initial answer in which Vance began making comments to me.

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, . . .In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. (1 Timothy 4:1-2, 6)

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12)

3. There was a complete apostasy affecting both Catholic and Protestant churches. . . .2. There was a total apostasy affecting the Catholic and Protestant churches. . . . (A UNIFORM SYSTEM FOR TEACHING INVESTIGATORS, Aug. 1961, pp.32, 58)

Paul authored the two letters to Timothy who was in training to become a bishop. It has a direct relevance in that which the Holy Spirit said that “some” will fall away, not “all”:

Mola, you had also stated:

One must also ask, that if the everlasting Gospel is on the earth, why is it fortold that an angel from Heaven will come down to earth with the everlasting gospel to preach to those on earth?

There are specific churches in the western part of present day Turkey mentioned in chapters 2-3 (which I visited this past year on a trip to Greece, the island of Patmos where John received the vision he was instructed to write down, and Turkey. Our Pastor had arranged the trip in the context of these same chapters).

The answer is that in the Book of Revelation there are angels symbolically associated with the churches in which the messages the churches have as part of their God given calling (the “Gospel” the Church always had that which Paul taught as it became part of the “it is written”):

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Concerning angels:

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? (Hebrews 1:13-14)

God also had specific messages for the specifically mentioned churches in the context of history then that they were a part of (read chapters 2&3 and see what messages God had for each of them). Both Paul and John along with Mary, Jesus’ mother, had lived in Ephesus.

Paul’s defense before King Agrippa and Festus (in Acts):

Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself: I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews: . . . And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. . . . King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest. Then Agrippa said unto Paul, almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds. And when he had thus spoken, the king rose up, and the governor, and Bernice, and they that sat with them: And when they were gone aside, they talked between themselves, saying, This man doeth nothing worthy of death or of bonds. Then said Agrippa unto Festus, this man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar. (Acts 26:1-2, 15-21, 27-32)

Besides, who made you board moderator?

[Vance]

Again Vance, “some’ not “all” as contrasted with “complete” “total”.

AGAIN coolrok7, WHAT part of "not sparing the flock" (church) and what part of "overcome them" (the saints/members of the church) don't you understand?

The context is VERY clear. The apostasy was total/complete. The fact that it started out as a partial apostasy doesn't negate the later total/complete apostasy spoken of by both Paul and John.

[Ivan Komotios]

Daniel 2:

31“You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image,whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome.32This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its bellyand £thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partlyof £clay. 34You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struckthe image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35Then theiron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, andbecame like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them awayso that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image becamea great mountain and filled the whole earth.

36“This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before theking. 37You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you akingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38and wherever the children of men dwell,or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them intoyour hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold.39But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, athird kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40And the fourthkingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces andshatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break inpieces and crush all the others. 41Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly ofpotter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet thestrength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed withceramic clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly ofclay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. 43As you sawiron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but theywill not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And inthe days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shallnever be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shallbreak in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.45Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands,and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and thegold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass afterthis. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”

Head of Gold is the Babylonian Empire

Breasts and arms of silver is the Medo-Persian Empire

Belly and thighs of brass is the Macedonian Empire

Legs of Iron is the Roman Empire

Feet of iron and clay is Rome broken into Ten Kingdoms

Notice in verse 44 God would set up a kingdom which would never be destroyedduring the Roman Empire and it would fill the whole earth. Would Jesus comedown from his throne in heaven die a death so terrible that I couldn’t evenwatch when I seen it depicted in the movie “the Passion” I had to leavecouldn’t take it even if it was a movie. Mormons would like you think theChurch Jesus set up went into apostacy 40 years after he went back to heaven.There is plenty of Christian writers in first century like Didache and Clementof Rome { A.D. 75 } and Hermas { A.D. 78-85 } teaching the Trinity. 2nd centuryIgnatius { A.D. 110-120 } Justin Martr { A.D. 114-168 } Irenaeus [ A.D. 115-190} a disciple of Polycarp. Theophilus { A.D. 116-181 } said” In like manner alsothe three days which were luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and hisWord, and his wisdom.” 3rd century we have Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen,Novatian, etc. all these Church leaders taught the Trinity, way before theCreeds were developed

http://www.youtube.com/user/jesusisjehovah#p/u

1. Alemanni - Germany.

2. Franks - France.

3. Burgundians - Switzerland.

4. Suevi - Portugal.

5. Vandals - Exterminated.

6. Visigoths - Spain.

7. Anglo-Saxons - England.

8. Ostrogoths - Exterminated.

9. Lombards - Italy.

10. Heruli - Exterminated.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Daniel 2:

Notice in verse 44 God would set up a kingdom which would never be destroyedduring the Roman Empire and it would fill the whole earth. Would Jesus comedown from his throne in heaven die a death so terrible that I couldn’t evenwatch when I seen it depicted in the movie “the Passion” I had to leavecouldn’t take it even if it was a movie. Mormons would like you think theChurch Jesus set up went into apostacy 40 years after he went back to heaven.There is plenty of Christian writers in first century like Didache and Clementof Rome { A.D. 75 } and Hermas { A.D. 78-85 } teaching the Trinity. 2nd centuryIgnatius { A.D. 110-120 } Justin Martr { A.D. 114-168 } Irenaeus [ A.D. 115-190} a disciple of Polycarp. Theophilus { A.D. 116-181 } said” In like manner alsothe three days which were luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and hisWord, and his wisdom.” 3rd century we have Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen,Novatian, etc. all these Church leaders taught the Trinity, way before theCreeds were developed

If you wish to accept this interpretation you must ignore the sciprutes that Vance and I have talked about. It is evident from those ande even a few others that there is a complete and total apaostasy before Christ returns. There for the idea that God's kingdom will never leave the earth is not possible.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I used to see differences that are not there. In fact there are only opinions. And we can argue opinions all day without benefit. There is no tie-breaker operating: the sects, denominations and religions are legion. And it doesn't seem to bother "God" in the least. It sure doesn't bother me. Let people believe whatsoever they will or must....

I would be more than willing to let them to believe what they may if they would let me believe as I may. But the issue come when you see things like "Mormons believe X and they are wrong". Sorry but I am defending what I believe.

[Calm]

Daniel 2.....

Notice in verse 44 God would set up a kingdom which would never be destroyed.....

Ivan, are you "Ron" elsewhere on the internet?

From the guidelines' No-Noes: Copying and pasting material and claiming it as your own or posting anything copyrighted

Also as a newbie, you should know that the moderators don't look too kindly on posts that are purely cut and paste, but generally require some substantive discussion as well.

Welcome to the board, hopefully you'll figure things out soon enough so you can stick around and enjoy the company, it's a very interesting collection of people.

[Ivan Komotios]

If you wish to accept this interpretation you must ignore the sciprutes that Vance and I have talked about. It is evident from those ande even a few others that there is a complete and total apaostasy before Christ returns. There for the idea that God's kingdom will never leave the earth is not possible.

According to Daniel there couldn't possible be an Apostacy, over 1 Billion Christian on the earth today proves that.

[Vance]

According to Daniel there couldn't possible be an Apostacy, over 1 Billion Christian on the earth today proves that.

No, ONLY according TO YOUR ERRONEOUS INTERPRETATION OF DANIEL.

Ah, yes, and an appeal to the fallacy of "ad populum" thrown in for fun.

[Nathair/|\]

According to Daniel there couldn't possible be an Apostacy, over 1 Billion Christian on the earth today proves that.

How many of them have the Priesthood and the ordinances?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

According to Daniel there couldn't possible be an Apostacy, over 1 Billion Christian on the earth today proves that.

I raise your one Daniel to my Acts, Revelations and Acts again

So we have at least 3 places that tell us that Satan will overcome the saints, not sparing the flock before Christ returns and there must be a restituion of all things. Why would there need to be a restitution of all things if they are already here? Please respond to this critisms we have. Right now you are just spouting talking points.

Here is one. "What does not sparing the flock mean"?

Just saying "Daniel says" does not deal with the text. That is just a diversion.

[Questing Beast]

It is entirely possible that the Bible is only a collection of disparate books over hundreds of years; that Acts has nothing to do with Daniel; that Revelation's author has nothing to do with the rest of the "churches" springing up all over the Mediterranean world; and certainly, that the NT has nothing at all to do with the medieval "church". Today's exegesis on biblical passages only increases the problematic aspects: we no longer have the originals, only copies, and the languages of the originals are dead to us: even those scholars fluent in translation do not have any knowledge of the meanings of the various figures of speech employed "back then". My point is, that everyone today is an "authority" on what the Bible says. And why should it be any other way? "God" can explain what you read; what you understand is according to your desires. If they are to make the world better then that is what you will get from the Bible: if they are to be right and prove everyone else wrong then that is all you will get from it. If you want justification for a brand of religious bigotry then there is ample precedent in the Bible of that as well. And so it goes....

[Ivan Komotios]

How many of them have the Priesthood and the ordinances?

Hebrews 7 says Jesus is the only Priest we need, thats why you won't find anyone in New Testament holding the Melchizedek Priesthood other than Jesus.

Jesus Is like Melchizedek

¹⁵This change has been made very clear since a different priest, who is like Melchizedek, has appeared.

¹⁶Jesus became a priest, not by meeting the physical requirement of belonging to the tribe of Levi, but by the power of a life that cannot be destroyed. ¹⁷And the psalmist pointed this out when he prophesied,

“You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”

^£

¹⁸Yes, the old requirement about the priesthood was set aside because it was weak and useless.

¹⁹For the law never made anything perfect. But now we have confidence in a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

²⁰This new system was established with a solemn oath. Aaron’s descendants became priests without such an oath,

²¹but there was an oath regarding Jesus. For God said to him,

“The LORD has taken an oath and will not break his vow:

‘You are a priest forever.’”^£

²²Because of this oath, Jesus is the one who guarantees this better covenant with God.

²³There were many priests under the old system, for death prevented them from remaining in office. ²⁴But because Jesus lives forever, his priesthood lasts forever.

²⁵Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.

²⁶He is the kind of high priest we need because he is holy and blameless, unstained by sin. He has been set apart from sinners and has been given the highest place of honor in heaven.

^£27Unlike those other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices every day. They did this for their own sins first and then for the sins of the people. But Jesus did this once for all when he offered himself as the sacrifice for the people’s sins. <a name="30">²⁸The law appointed high priests who were limited by human weakness. But after the law was given, God appointed his Son with an oath, and his Son has been made the perfect High Priest forever.

[ChristKnight]

Hebrews 7 says Jesus is the only Priest we need, thats why you won't find anyone in New Testament holding the Melchizedek Priesthood other than Jesus.

Nowhere in Hebrews 7 does it say that Jesus is the only priest that we need.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hebrews 7 says Jesus is the only Priest we need, thats why you won't find anyone in New Testament holding the Melchizedek Priesthood other than Jesus.

Jesus Is like Melchizedek

So the text tells us that Christ is a priest after the order of Melchizedek forever and that means that Christ is the only Priest we need? The logic just does not flow.

I dont' get why you guys constantly tell us things that just simply are not in the text. It drives me nuts.

[thesometimesaint]

I believe it was all over but the shouting by no later than 150 CE.

[thesometimesaint]

Ivan Komotios:

There are some 40,000 Christian denominations in the US alone. Which begs the question of Ephesians 4:11-14.

11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a cperfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

[Ivan Komotios]

Ivan Komotios:

There are some 40,000 Christian denominations in the US alone. Which begs the question of Ephesians 4:11-14.

11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a cperfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

[Vance]

So the text tells us that Christ is a priest after the order of Melchizedek forever and that means that Christ is the only Priest we need? The logic jsut does not flow.

I dont' get why you guys constantly tell us things that just simply are not in the text. It drives me nuts.

They don't need no stinkin text to "know" what the Bible says.

[Ivan Komotios]

There are some 40,000 Christian denominations in the US alone. Which begs the question of Ephesians 4:11-14.

So could there be an Apostacy with so many Churches and denominations? Sounds like Jesus did a very good job creating so many followers, and I'm sure most of them teach all the same basics like the Trinity:

Notice how the Trinity teaches three separate persons representthe One God, just like the Book of Mormon teaches in Alma 11:44 2 Nephi 31:21and Mormon 7:7 and pre 1835 Joseph Smith Jr D&C 20:28

11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Sounds like Mormons are apostate since they don't have evangelists and pastors

12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a cperfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;