The Great Apostacy

[LeSellers]

11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Sounds like Mormons are apostate since they don't have evangelists and pastors

Ah!! But we do!

We call them Patriarchs and Bishops, but they are there. (Biblical bishops are stake presidents today.)

Lehi

[thesometimesaint]

Ivan Komotios:

I wouldn't call it a unity of faith, especially given the wars that have been fought over sectarian religion.

[ChristKnight]

There are some 40,000 Christian denominations in the US alone. Which begs the question of Ephesians 4:11-14.

So could there be an Apostacy with so many Churches and denominations? Sounds like Jesus did a very good job creating so many followers,

So Jesus created so many followers with such a diversity of beliefs, many of which claim that their beliefs come from the Bible only? Clearly there is no "unity of faith" in that situation.

and I'm sure most of them teach all the same basics like the Trinity:

Notice how the Trinity teaches three separate persons representthe One God, just like the Book of Mormon teaches in Alma 11:44 2 Nephi 31:21and Mormon 7:7 and pre 1835 Joseph Smith Jr D&C 20:28

The Trinity doctrine doesn't teach "three separate persons represent One God".

Also, the LDS doctrine of the Godhead is in perfect harmony with what the Book of Mormon teaches. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Persons/Personages/Beings who are one in purpose and love, and can be considered to be One God through this unity.

[Ivan Komotios]

Ivan Komotios:

I wouldn't call it a unity of faith, especially given the wars that have been fought over sectarian religion.

What wars are we talking about ? Easter I went to a Baptist Chuch in the morning and later to a Nazerene later both were very good services, both teaching Jesus victory over death.

I see no wars in main stream Christianity. All teach ONE GOD represented by three distinct and separate persons.

[Ivan Komotios]

What wars are we talking about ? Easter I went to a Baptist Chuch in the morning and later to a Nazerene later both were very good services, both teaching Jesus victory over death.

I see no wars in main stream Christianity. All teach ONE GOD represented by three distinct and separate persons.

Here's a very good song about Easter and how Jesus went to hell for three days to pay for our sins.

http://www.youtube.com/user/jesusisjehovah#p/u/22/-qyvdHXoKVs

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What wars are we talking about ? Easter I went to a Baptist Chuch in the morning and later to a Nazerene later both were very good services, both teaching Jesus victory over death.

I see no wars in main stream Christianity. All teach ONE GOD represented by three distinct and separate persons.

All of main Stream Christianity teaches that One God is represented by three distinct and separate persons?? You know what is nice about this doctrine, this is exactly what teh LDS believe. I am not so sure about main stream chrsitianity. Some beleive in modalism, some beleive in the nicean creed some believe in completely different things.

So what is your beef here?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Here's a very good song about Easter and how Jesus went to hell for three days to pay for our sins.

http://www.youtube.com/user/jesusisjehovah#p/u/22/-qyvdHXoKVs

Were in the bible does it say Jesus went to hell for 3 days to pay for our sins? I can find a referce that Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison but nothing about it being a payment for sins.

[thesometimesaint]

Ivan Komotios:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Wars_of_Religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion

and lets not forget the "Extermination Order" of Missouri against the LDS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Executive_Order_44

[LeSellers]

Here's a very good song about Easter and how Jesus went to hell for three days to pay for our sins.

If Jesus was in hell for three days, what does that do to the claim, often made here, that the "good thief" was in heaven with Him? (Hint: "Hell" is "paradise", but "paradise" is not "heaven".)

Lehi

[Ivan Komotios]

So Jesus created so many followers with such a diversity of beliefs, many of which claim that their beliefs come from the Bible only? Clearly there is no "unity of faith" in that situation.

The Trinity doctrine doesn't teach "three separate persons represent One God".

Also, the LDS doctrine of the Godhead is in perfect harmony with what the Book of Mormon teaches. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Persons/Personages/Beings who are one in purpose and love, and can be considered to be One God through this unity.

\\\\\\\\

I'm posting the Athanasion Creed a Catholic document that was formulated to teach the Trinity, it says three separate and distinct persons represent the ONE God { substance is a synounom for Godhead} comes from the Latin word substantia { meaning of same family, that family is God or Godhead} no where in the Book of Mormon does it say one in purpose, it does say ONE God like the Trinity teachesTheAthanasion Creed

Nowthis is the catholic faith:

1) Whosoever will be saved, before all things it isnecessary that he hold the catholic faith; (2) Which faith except every one dokeep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.(3) Andthe catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity inUnity; (4) Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. (5) Forthere is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the HolySpirit. (6) But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spiritis all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal

(33) Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, andinferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

Confounding means not mixing them up, The Father isn'tthe Son, the Son isn't the Father etc.

Substance is a synonym for Godhead the same as Essencebeing or God

Trinity

USED TO EXPRESS THE DOCTRINE OF THE UNITY OF GOD AS SUBSISTING INTHREE DISTINCT PERSONS. THIS WORD IS DERIVED FROM THE GR. trias, firstused by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Lat. trinitas, first usedby Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine.

The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: (1.) That Godis one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). (2.)That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia,persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the HolySpirit. (3.) That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinctfrom the Father and the Holy Spirit. (4.) That the Holy Spirit is also adistinct divine Person.

Easton Bible Dictionary

[Ivan Komotios]

Nowhere in Hebrews 7 does it say that Jesus is the only priest that we need.

Find a text in New Testament where anyone held the Melch Priesthood besides Jesus then and for fun one in the Book of Mormon in New Testament era of Book of Mormon

[LeSellers]

Find a text in New Testament where anyone held the Melch Priesthood besides Jesus then and for fun one in the Book of Mormon in New Testament era of Book of Mormon

We're not limited to the Bible and Book of Mormon.

Lehi

[Vance]

Find a text in New Testament where anyone held the Melch Priesthood besides Jesus then and for fun one in the Book of Mormon in New Testament era of Book of Mormon

In other words, you have no real response to ChristKnight. How interesting.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Find a text in New Testament where anyone held the Melch Priesthood besides Jesus then and for fun one in the Book of Mormon in New Testament era of Book of Mormon

You want me to take this seriously? THe lack of something does not mean exclusitivty. That is a rather bold assumption on your part. The text does not claim what you hope it claimed. And what are we to rely on? Oh that is right, what the bible does not say. Bravo.

[ChristKnight]

\\\\\\\\

I'm posting the Athanasion Creed a Catholic document that was formulated to teach the Trinity, it says three separate and distinct persons represent the ONE God { substance is a synounom for Godhead} comes from the Latin word substantia { meaning of same family, that family is God or Godhead} no where in the Book of Mormon does it say one in purpose, it does say ONE God like the Trinity teachesTheAthanasion Creed

I'm already familiar with all of that. Nowhere does the Athanasian Creed or the Catholic Church teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost "represent the One God". If anything, that sounds like it borders on Modalism. Instead, the Catholic Church teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are (not "represent") one God, in that they are of one substance/being/essence. Also, the Catholic Church never says that they are "separate persons", instead saying that they are "distinct persons" (some Catholic apologists are quick to state that they are "distinct not separate").

Also, if you are defining substantia to mean of the same family, then Latter-day Saints would of course not have a problem with that, as we believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one Family, and we are also part of the Family as sons and daughters of the Father. However that is not what substantia means.

Finally, are you not aware that the LDS teaching of the Godhead says that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are "ONE God" because they are one in purpose and love? That is what the Godhead doctrine is. So I am not sure why you are presenting the Book of Mormon teaching as contrary to the LDS teaching, since we have always believed that they are "one God" because they are one in purpose. This is basic Mormon teaching.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

\\\\\\\\

It is very important to note that Christknight recently convereted from teh Catholic faith. I think he is well aware what the Catholics teach. The other interesting thing to note, is that he often gives a very fair point of view towards the catholic fatih.

[ChristKnight]

Find a text in New Testament where anyone held the Melch Priesthood besides Jesus then and for fun one in the Book of Mormon in New Testament era of Book of Mormon

So you can't provide the verse to back up your assertion. Hebrews 7 nowhere says that Jesus is the only priest we need.

[Ivan Komotios]

Were in the bible does it say Jesus went to hell for 3 days to pay for our sins? I can find a referce that Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison but nothing about it being a payment for sins.

Acts 2:

²⁷’You will not leave my soul in hell or let the body of your Holy Son decay.

²⁸’You will give me back my life and give me wonderful joy in your presence.’

²⁹“Dear brothers, think! David wasn’t referring to himself when he spoke these words I have quoted, for he died and was buried, and his tomb is still here among us.

³⁰But he was a prophet, and knew God had promised with an unbreakable oath that one of David’s own descendants would be the Messiah and sit on David’s throne. ³¹David was looking far into the future and predicting the Messiah’s resurrection, and saying that the Messiah’s soul would not be left in hell and his body would not decay. <a name="32">³²He was speaking of Jesus, and we all are witnesses that Jesus rose from the dead.

[Ivan Komotios]

All of main Stream Christianity teaches that One God is represented by three distinct and separate persons?? You know what is nice about this doctrine, this is exactly what teh LDS believe. I am not so sure about main stream chrsitianity. Some beleive in modalism, some beleive in the nicean creed some believe in completely different things.

So what is your beef here?

Modalism is not the Trinity, Nicean Creed does teach the Trinity, 99% of all Christians believe in the Trinity taught in The Athanasion and Nicean Creed. The only one that believe in Modalism is Jesus Only Penticostal Church of God and the Way.