The Great Apostacy

[Kingsson]

So what about the parts that were written AFTER 2 Tim?

Catholic translators or Protestant translators or JW translators?

[1] All God's word [The Bible] is inspired before and after Timothy.

[2]The Bible's translators. JUST LET THE BIBLE INTERPRET ITSELF AND BELIEVE IT.

[MosesStone1980]

[1] All God's word [The Bible] is inspired before and after Timothy.

[2]The Bible's translators. JUST LET THE BIBLE INTERPRET ITSELF AND BELIEVE IT.

So, simply disregard the entire idea that Christ preached (in the Bible [NT, specifically])about the "the Comforter," is moot?

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

John 14:26

Ok.

[Vance]

[1] All God's word [The Bible] is inspired before and after Timothy.

Do you realize that this sounds like you worship the Bible?

[2]The Bible's translators. JUST LET THE BIBLE INTERPRET ITSELF AND BELIEVE IT.

Do you realize that this sounds like you are an arrogant moroon?

How do you know that your interpretation is correct?

How do you know that the Bible is "God's word"? Because it says so?

How do you know that any of the Bible "is inspired"? Because it says so?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

How do you know that any of the Bible "is inspired"? Because it says so?

ACtually the sad part is that no were in the bible does it say "The bible is the word of God".

Not that it needs to but I find it interesting that some people act as if it does.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The catholics addad books to the Bible, I have seen some writtings from some of those added books, And they don't agree with scripture.

The Bible as the protestants have it today, Is all we need to make us compleat 2 Tim 3: 16.

God, In His wisdom inspirered the translators to put in the Bible [as we have it today] all that is necessary for us.

There is no need for the book of mormon.

So let me get this straight. THe Catholics added some books. Whould you say that the Catholic church is wrong?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

[1]I do preach the TRUE GOSPEL as recorded in the gospels, qith healings and miracles.

Which is what? That I can confess Jesus with my mouth and then I have eternal security? Is that really the gospel you want to run with?

BTW in the LDS church we believe in healings and miracles and there are many documented in the hisotry of the church.

[2]I know you didn't get you gospel from the revelation of Jesus, Because the so-called God and Jesus who appeared to Joseph Smith, told him lies.

Good on King, good one. I am so ready to convert to your brand of evangelicism.

So it is your opinion that Jesus and God the Father appeard to JS and told him lies. Bravo.

[Flyonthewall]

[1] All God's word [The Bible] is inspired before and after Timothy.

[2]The Bible's translators. JUST LET THE BIBLE INTERPRET ITSELF AND BELIEVE IT.

Which translation of the Bible do you consider correct? Do you consider the Apocrypha to be part of the Bible? Weren't those books in the Bible before the Protestant version came about? Those books were considered to be the word of God...who decided they weren't? Would that not be considered taking away from the word of God?

So you are relying on men to do your translating for you. We rely on the Holy Spirit.

[Skylla]

Do you realize that this sounds like you worship the Bible?

Do you realize that this sounds like you are an arrogant moroon?

How do you know that your interpretation is correct?

How do you know that the Bible is "God's word"? Because it says so?

How do you know that any of the Bible "is inspired"? Because it says so?

Vance: Make your point without insulting people. You can expect to be banned from threads if it happens again.

Skylla

[Kingsson]

Which translation of the Bible do you consider correct? Do you consider the Apocrypha to be part of the Bible? Weren't those books in the Bible before the Protestant version came about? Those books were considered to be the word of God...who decided they weren't? Would that not be considered taking away from the word of God?

So you are relying on men to do your translating for you. We rely on the Holy Spirit.

I have read some verses of those books the catholics added, And they disagree with the rest of the Bible.

So God has inspired the translateors to put the books in the Bible as we have it today.

Not only that, But in all my Hebrew and Greek Bible dictionaries do they ever mention any of the catholic added books.

So the Bible as we have it today is God inspired and is all we need.

[Flyonthewall]

I have read some verses of those books the catholics added, And they disagree with the rest of the Bible.

So God has inspired the translateors to put the books in the Bible as we have it today.

Not only that, But in all my Hebrew and Greek Bible dictionaries do they ever mention any of the catholic added books.

So the Bible as we have it today is God inspired and is all we need.

Would you like a list of books that are mentioned in the bible but not included in the bible?

[ChristKnight]

I have read some verses of those books the catholics added, And they disagree with the rest of the Bible.

So God has inspired the translateors to put the books in the Bible as we have it today.

Not only that, But in all my Hebrew and Greek Bible dictionaries do they ever mention any of the catholic added books.

So the Bible as we have it today is God inspired and is all we need.

Except of course that The Bible nowhere says that it is "all we need".

[ChristKnight]

The Bible is the Bible, It is God's word. You either believe what it says or you don't. You don't interpret it, You let it interpret itself.

The Holy Spirit reveals the truth of God's word,[The Bible] to the one He know will except the truth.

The mormons say the authority was lost and the mormons have to restore it back into the church. But the Bible doesn't sat the power or authority will be lost, In fact it says it will be in the TRUE CHURCH, Throughout ALL GAGES, WORLD WITHOUT END.

So when the demonic spirit told Joseph Smith the authority and power had ceased, he was lying.

So the mormon church started with a lie and has carried on lying ever since.

The Bible is true and we have to believe it. The mormons say thet believe the Bible, So they'll have to admit the evil sprit told J Smith a lie.

Either the Bible is true, Or the sprit that appeared to Joseph Smith was true, They both can't be true as one contradicts the other.

BUT I KNOW IT IS THE BIBLE THAT IS TRUE. As God confirms it with signs following.

The Bible predicts an apostasy in many places, and states that the Second Coming will not happen unless a "falling away" (i.e. apostasy) occurs first. Latter-day Saints believe that that falling away happened, as predicted. Sorry, there is no contradiction, as it's right in the Bible.

[ChristKnight]

[1]The True Church has never lost the keys, WHOEVER TOLD YOU THAT??.

If you check out the true Church's history, You see

the power, Authority, Gifts of the Spirit, Healings, miracles and casting out devils has always been in the Church, There has always been some Church or Church's doing these things.

[2] The Apostles, Prophets, Evengelist, Pastor and Teachers have always been in the Church. Read the Bible and you'll see they never stoped.

See Ephesians 3: 20--21, And you'll find the power is in the Church throughout ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END.

We re still in the "ALL AGES", and the world "HASEN'T ENDED YET".

Then go into Chapter 4: 11--13, And you'll see that Jesus gave these Ministry Gifts to the Church, The Bible wasn't written in Chapter and verse, The translator put them in for clearety. So Ch 4 continues from Ch 3.

So the Apostles, power, authority and keys never left the Church.

If you believe that those offices have always been in the Church, I am curious as to which Church you belong to that has apostles, prophets, evangelists, etc. The restored Church of Jesus Christ has those, as well as healings, miracles, revelation, etc., just like the Church of the New Testament.

[ChristKnight]

God has said in His word, [The BIble], You cannot add to it or take away from it.

No, "it" is not referring to "The Bible", since "The Bible" did not exist as a compiled work at the times those verses were written. Adding to or taking away from "this book" refers to the books in which those verses appear in (Revelation and Deuteronomy). And if we used your interpretation, then that verse appearing in Deuteronomy means that the rest of "the Bible" after Deuteronomy violates God's commandment. Sorry, that interpretation doesn't work.

So, The Bible does record God's word. It also says the Bible is all we need to make us compleate.

No, the Bible nowhere says that "the Bible is all we need to make us compleate (sic)".

[Questing Beast]

I said: There is no way to show which, if any, "God" prefers as his "true church". So "apostasy" remains completely free to interpret; no sect or denomination has a trump over any others....

Interesting.

How do you know this assertion is true? Did God tell you?

(I forgot about this thread and only now subscribed to it, sorry)

If "God" speaks through conclusions drawn from logical study and pondering, then yes "God" told me.

This is a case of you needing to prove that what I said isn't true. So, do you have an empirical way to show which, if any, of the sects and denominations of Christianity, arising from this so-called Great Apostasy, is God's one and only true church?...

[Kingsson]

Except of course that The Bible nowhere says that it is "all we need".

God said in the Bible, You can't add to His word, And 2 Timothy 3: 16-17, says God's word [as recorded in the Bible] is enough to

Perfectly prepare us and to make us complete.... WHAT ELSE DO WE NEED??

[ChristKnight]

God said in the Bible, You can't add to His word, And 2 Timothy 3: 16-17, says God's word [as recorded in the Bible] is enough to

Perfectly prepare us and to make us complete.... WHAT ELSE DO WE NEED??

No, that's not what 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says. It says that all "scripture" is God-breathed and is given to perfect us. Latter-day Saints agree. Those verses do not say "as recorded in the Bible", and that is your own addition to what the Bible actually says. The Bible itself nowhere limits "God's word" or scripture to the Bible.

[Kingsson]

No, "it" is not referring to "The Bible", since "The Bible" did not exist as a compiled work at the times those verses were written. Adding to or taking away from "this book" refers to the books in which those verses appear in (Revelation and Deuteronomy). And if we used your interpretation, then that verse appearing in Deuteronomy means that the rest of "the Bible" after Deuteronomy violates God's commandment. Sorry, that interpretation doesn't work.

No, the Bible nowhere says that "the Bible is all we need to make us compleate (sic)".

Duet 4: 2 and Prov 30:5-- 6 are God's words. They are in the Bible,

The original Hebrew text says about Prov 30: 6. says if you add to God's words [As recorded in the Bible] You are argueing and disputing with God, And you are found to speak falsehood and a liar.

Do you realy want to dispute and argue with God, Do you realy want to be found to be false and a liar??. IF I WAS YOU, I'D STAY WITH THE BIBLE.

Kingsson has left the building.

[ChristKnight]

Duet 4: 2 and Prov 30:5-- 6 are God's words. They are in the Bible,

The original Hebrew text says about Prov 30: 6. says if you add to God's words [As recorded in the Bible] You are argueing and disputing with God, And you are found to speak falsehood and a liar.

Do you realy want to dispute and argue with God, Do you realy want to be found to be false and a liar??. IF I WAS YOU, I'D STAY WITH THE BIBLE.

You keep adding "as recorded in the Bible", which is not found in the Bible. The verses in question state not to add nor take away from "this book", which refers to the book of Revelation and Deuteronomy, not the Bible, since the Bible did not exist as a compilation until centuries after those verses were written. Also, as already mentioned, nowhere in the Bible does it say that God's words are limited to the Bible. That again is your own addition to what the Bible actually says.

[mfbukowski]

If "God" speaks through conclusions drawn from logical study and pondering, then yes "God" told me.

It's possible.

This is a case of you needing to prove that what I said isn't true. So, do you have an empirical way to show which, if any, of the sects and denominations of Christianity, arising from this so-called Great Apostasy, is God's one and only true church?...

No it's not. Why should it be?

It is empirical in my experience- I can't help if your senses are different than mine. I see red, you see green. Prove which is right.

[coolrok7]

I agree that apostasy has taken place from the very beginning and continues till today and will until Jesus returns, and comes back just as He left (the angels had told the disciples the following):

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:7-11)

In its essence, apostasy is the falling away from believing the Biblical truth concerning what it means in its entirety for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, prophesied in the Old Testament/fulfilled in the New Testament:

The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: (Acts 1:1-3)

The Biblical teaching on apostasy (or falling away- the truth has to be there to fall away from) is taught through the apostle Paul. The Holy Spirit says that “some” would fall away from the faith, not that the truth would be lost or that His church would be destroyed (“some” does not mean “all”):

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, . . .In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. (1 Timothy 4:1-2, 6)

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12)

It is also taught concerning spirits (this directly correlates with the above):

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. . . .We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:1, 6)

The Bible does not teach a, “complete” “total”, falling away as to there being no one left in the Church to continue in the preaching of the Biblical Gospel until Joseph Smith came along. Apostasy yes; “Complete” or “total”, no:

3. There was a complete apostasy affecting both Catholic and Protestant churches. . . .2. There was a total apostasy affecting the Catholic and Protestant churches. . . . (A UNIFORM SYSTEM FOR TEACHING INVESTIGATORS, Aug. 1961, pp.32, 58)

The Biblical Gospel vs. the Mormon gospel:

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

. . .God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, . . . (History of the Church, Joseph Smith Jr., April 1844, 6:305)

“As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be”— Lorenzo Snow

The first principles of men are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. . . . (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.354)

The Gospel of the Son of God that has been revealed is a plan or system of laws and ordinances, by strict obedience to which the people who inhabit this earth are assured that they may return again into the presence of the Father and the Son. (quoted in the pamphlet entitled, BRIGHAM YOUNG PROPHET STATESMAN PIONEER, 11/81; JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, 13:233, Brigham Young)

Our Heavenly Parents have through aeons of time and a multitude of experiences gradually become acquainted with and applied in their lives an untold number of these everlasting laws. As they learned these verities and how to operate them, these laws thereby became subject unto Elohim and henceforth were His laws—or, in other words,

the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.4)

Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.51)

Christians base their world view/belief upon recorded Scripture (which in time ended up as the Bible as a compilation of both the Old/New Testaments), the inspired written witness of the Holy Spirit from the first century and previous:

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:16-21)

In time along with history since then, and of course the individuals inner witness, is where we become united as fellow believers in what Scripture actually teaches as doctrine to be believed, by the Holy Spirit’s witness in the written “Word of God”.

As the New Testament was being written, it was being disseminated and eventually was codified in what is now the Bible. Belief, even then was based on the testimony of the eyewitnesses and the conviction of the Holy Spirit:

Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:29-30)

For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope. (Romans 15:4)

Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, . . . (Acts 17:11-12a)

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:14-17)

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21) (not all so-called “Scripture” is from God)

Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. (1 Corinthians 4:6)

Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. (1 Corinthians 10:11)

And when this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and you, for your part read my letter that is coming from Laodicea. (Colossians 4:16)

I adjure you by the Lord to have this letter read to all the brethren. (1 Thessalonians 5:27)

But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good. And if anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that man and do not associate with him, so that he may be put to shame. And yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. (2 Thessalonians 3:13-15)

I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; but in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:14-15)

Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 1:13)

You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also. (2 Timothy 2:1-2)

Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:14-15)

[Vance]

Acts 20:28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

coolrok,

What part of "not sparing the flock" is so difficult to understand?

[coolrok7]

As I said, “some” is not “complete” “total”:

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times somewill fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, . . .In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. (1 Timothy 4:1-2, 6)

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12)

3. There was a complete apostasy affecting both Catholic and Protestant churches. . . .2. There was a total apostasy affecting the Catholic and Protestant churches. . . . (A UNIFORM SYSTEM FOR TEACHING INVESTIGATORS, Aug. 1961, pp.32, 58)

I do understand that “some” of the flock does fall away as that is what apostasy is (but it doesn’t address the specifics as to the actual headcount, there or anywhere else).

But “some” is a far cry from “all” which you seem to ignore. You have to remember that there were others in different places Paul was responsible for, not just for the immediate group he was addressing.

The warning was being given so that those who would, would resist the false teaching that would come their way as it surely did which is why all the letters of Paul to the different groups of which there was also letters of encouragement, other types of instruction as well, not just the immediate warnings given in that specific address.

The following is part of a past conversation I had with Kevin [Wayne] Graham from his Mormon Answers website (first my statement, then his response; this was from back in May of 1999):

When your Church teaches that what I believe as a Protestant Christian is “pagan” and “heretical” and that I’m wrong, my point back is to give a defense of both what I believe from scripture (the Bible) and what I have been told officially by members of the LDS Church.

In reference to the word “some” Paul as you know wrote both 1&2 Timothy as well as 1&2 Thessalonians. The word apostasy in Thessalonians and some that would fall away in Timothy is speaking about the same thing. . .There will always be people falling away from the truth which will eventually culminate in the final delusion of the last anti-Christ (Paul identifies as the son of perdition)(there have been many anti-Christ’s as John says), who will be destroyed at the appearing of Jesus in the clouds. The point being there was and always will be the truth as contained in the Bible, preserved by the Holy Spirit of God. . . .

Excellent post Roy, and I do agree with most of what you stated. You have made an interesting argument about the two epistles to Timothy, and I do appreciate this, since I have never heard this as a defense for “some” apostasy. It is well noted! But I do have to say that the “Falling away” passage never literally said “Complete” either, and is perhaps one of the weaker scriptures used to defend the LDS position of a “complete apostasy”,

although it is probably the most cited. . . .

[Vance]

Acts 20:28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

coolrok,

What part of "not sparing the flock" is so difficult to understand? You seem to ignore that the flock (church) is NOT spared.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

As I said, “some” is not “complete” “total”:

This only holds water if you ignore that which is spoken of in Acts and I believe a few verses in Revelations.