As a "critic", what is your purpose or motivation?

[HiJolly]

Definitely doesn't derive from Masons even though the Masons had to get their content from somewhere. We know where.

My good friends just returned from Israel on a tour of the Middle East. I was amazed in what they told me of the rituals that the Jews do this day that are exactly done in the LDS Temples. For Temple goers, imagine what is done and amazingly the Jews do a lot of the same near the wall of the Temple.

A person comparing LDS Temple content to modern day Jews could easily argue that Joseph Smith "stole" the Temple content from the Jews.

Now where did the Jews get it from? We know where.

What?

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Duplicate

[HiJolly]

Duplicate

[Doctor Steuss]

Smith said in one sermon that the people attending would be alive when Christ returns. HE said there were 6ft tall Quakers living on the Moon.

I'm probably overstepping my bounds here; but, if you plan on impaling FAIR for its lack of evidentiary standards, it may be advantageous to put the shotgun away and pick something with a little more refined critical aim.

If for nothing more than keeping up the appearance of objectivity with the locals…

[Mike Reed]

The text from the Temple Endowment didn't come from Masonic ceremonies. I'm a Mason.

Portions of the text did come from the ceremonies. Moreover, the narrative context in which Joseph Smith placed the LDS endowment ritual is quite consistent with the way in which many Christian Masons of New York (at that time) interpreted theirs. I'll be presenting on this topic at MHA in St George this year.

[HiJolly]

Portions of the text did come from the ceremonies. Moreover, the narrative context in which Joseph Smith placed the LDS endowment ritual is quite consistent with the way in which many Christian Masons of New York (at that time) interpreted theirs. I'll be presenting on this topic at MHA in St George this year.

Now if you could only tie in Madonna & Kabbala with the rest of your presentation...

Now I'm gonna *have* to try 'n make it to the MHA conference...

HiJolly

[Mike Reed]

I'm not aware that many Masons in Joseph Smith's time, Bennett included, were members of clandestine orders.

One did not need to be a member in order to have knowledge of the clandestine ceremonies. Besides... they'd only be kicked out if they were caught or confessed. Following the Morgan affair, when lodges were forced to go underground or close, the Grand lodge had little-to-no control over clandestine practices.

Masonry doesn't teach doctrines of salvation.

You are apparently unaware of the Christianization movement happening in New York in Joseph Smith's day.

[volgadon]

My good friends just returned from Israel on a tour of the Middle East. I was amazed in what they told me of the rituals that the Jews do this day that are exactly done in the LDS Temples. For Temple goers, imagine what is done and amazingly the Jews do a lot of the same near the wall of the Temple.

Without going into detail regarding the temple, do you mind elaborating on which Jewish rituals at the Western Wall you are speaking of? I've been there numerous times and I can't say I've been struck by any similarities.

[Mike Reed]

Now if you could only tie in Madonna & Kabbala with the rest of your presentation...

No Kabbala or Madonna in my presentation. Clinton Bartholomew, who will also be presenting in our session, might talk a little on the Kabbalah, though. Our third presenter will be Clair Barrus, Mark Ashurst-McGee our Chair, and Michael Homer our respondent.

Now I'm gonna *have* to try 'n make it to the MHA conference...

HiJolly

I hope you do. I'd love to finally get to meet you.

[bookofmormontruth]

Without going into detail regarding the temple, do you mind elaborating on which Jewish rituals at the Western Wall you are speaking of? I've been there numerous times and I can't say I've been struck by any similarities.

Maybe because it was an LDS tour guide that made the connections?

Without going into detail regarding LDS Temples. Jewish rituals: they receive a new name (same in Old Testament) and the 3 knocks at a certain place. Robe on one shoulder - not sure where all these are done? Wall also representing a veil.

I also asked about why they put names in the wall - well they do it like we put names in the Temple to have God bless those names in the wall. There was another good connection that I will have to ask again.

Can you possibly verify this? Because it is being explained to LDS members of the connections and my friends are the most upright people that I know of.

[Mudcat]

That isn't exactly the impression that is given. The impression that IS given is that the source was an active current member. Not that that makes it better.

I hunted around Rob's site and haven't come up with what you are talking about. I am sure I missed something.. but if you have the time Vance, could you PM me a link?

But given your impression, I would ask. Do you believe that an active LDS who shares Temple content with outsiders of your faith is actually an current and active member of the CoJCoLDS?

Still true, but now more offensive.

I wouldn't think so, but to each his own.

That doesn't remove any culpability from his part.

I suppose I am not fully understanding exactly what he is culpable of, on the specific issue, other than offending LDS by presenting Temple content on his website. And for that matter, from what I could find on his site about, all I got was quotes of dialogue... no photos beyond that which a person who attended an "open house" before a Temple opening might see or demonstrations of stuff.. that sort of thing.

I don't want to over argue his position, but as an EV myself,I come from a paradigm where there aren't things that are held in secret. The truth of what I believe is available to all without any disqualifying criteria. Certainly I hold my beliefs as sacred, but not secretive in a way that there are some specific actions that should be hidden from unbelievers.

The point being, that if the EV view is that there are no secrets with what I believe. Then the exposition of the LDS notion that there are secrets that should be believed and reserved to certain LDS fall into headlong contrast.

If such secrets are exposed by past or present membership. Should an Evangelical make an actual attempt to preserve the exposed secrecy of such things for the sanctity of a paradigm they refute, given the fact that an Evangelical paradigm doesn't recognize secret knowledge?

Isn't being the distributor of known stolen items a crime, just as serious as the theft itself?

I don't really understand this part. I don't see Rob a "fence" for stolen spiritual knowledge or something.

I get where you are going in that the person(s) that released such knowledge acted against an oath/promise/swear they took while within your faith. I don't see the bearing of it on the issue actually.

I want you to think about something for minute....

Say a Southern Baptist converted to the CoJCoLDS. SBC's consider the ordinance of baptism to be sacred to them. However, to join the CoJCoLDS they would have to disavow that they were baptized and recognize that they must be baptized by the LDS authorities. In light of the fact that LDS have some things they want to keep secret. I see similarity here.

The debate should be shifted to what valid reasoning there is for secrecy, since secrecy has been breached.

I don't think, other than the promotion of internal secrecy, LDS have a leg to stand on. Nor do I think that such an internal promotion of secrecy should be uniformly accepted externally.

[Analytics]

The only thing he said about the law was that it only protects published material.

Do you really want to disagree with that? What would be the purpose of "protecting" unpublished material?? From what?

Yes, I really want to disagree with that. I disagree with it because it is wrong.

According to the FAQ of the U.S. Copyright Office:

When is my work protected?

Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#mywork

[USU78]

I thought it wasn't copyrighted because the text was taken from another source to begin with? If anyone is breaking copyright laws, the church did it first.

Read the thread title. Read this post. Look up "dramatic irony" in your favorite online dictionary. Giggle uncontrollably.

Repeat.

Change underwear.

Read on.

[Calm]

Maybe because it was an LDS tour guide that made the connections?

Or a guide who knew they were LDS and thought they would enjoy the tour more with those kinds of tidbits?

[Eldwynn]

Read the thread title. Read this post. Look up "dramatic irony" in your favorite online dictionary. Giggle uncontrollably.

Repeat.

Change underwear.

Read on.

Do you have a cold? I thought for sure you would be able to smell the sarcasm.

[USU78]

Yes, I really want to disagree with that. I disagree with it because it is wrong.

According to the FAQ of the U.S. Copyright Office:

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#mywork

The requirement of "fixation" means it must be written down in tangible form. Yes, things not yet "published," including drafts are entitled to copyright protection.

Forgot who I'm dealing with, so I include the legalease above.

The main point remains:

The Church cannot use the courts to protect the temple movie(s) or text of the endowment and other temple ceremonies without making the problem far worse. The cesspool morality that imbues antiMormonism, both hard and soft, holds that, since the Church does not use the courts to enforce its rights in this regard, it is perfectly morally and legally permissible to steal, distort (and they always distort), and place on public display what is intended only to be experienced within the Temple by a few.

If the Church fights it in Court, all sorts of nasty things happen . . . like "fair use," including but not limited to parodies, extended quotes, and whatnot. It'd be an absolute nightmare, far worse than the sick, thieving pigdogs have created.

[USU78]

Do you have a cold? I thought for sure you would be able to smell the sarcasm.

No . . . I can only smell the mendacity.

USU "Once played a protestant preacher in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" 78

[volgadon]

Maybe because it was an LDS tour guide that made the connections?

Maybe, but I don't see how being LDS born and raised in Israel puts me at any disadvantage. BTW, I was going to become a licensed tour guide as well.

Without going into detail regarding LDS Temples. Jewish rituals: they receive a new name (same in Old Testament) and the 3 knocks at a certain place. Robe on one shoulder - not sure where all these are done? Wall also representing a veil.

I have never recieved a new name at the Western Wall, nor do I recall any knocks, let alone three. By robe I assume the talit is meant, and that is a prayer shawl which is worn to cover the head and shoulders. It isn't a requirement. I've also never heard the wall compared to the pargod (veil). Sounds like this guide was Mormonising Judaism.

There isn't a set ritual for the Western Wall. People go there to pray. If it is time for one of the set prayers then they pray that. If not then psalms are usually sung. The only really peculiar practice associated with the place is walking backwards after placing the note in the wall. This is a folk custom which avoids turning your back on the Shechina.

I also asked about why they put names in the wall - well they do it like we put names in the Temple to have God bless those names in the wall. There was another good connection that I will have to ask again.

Putting notes in the wall hasn't been traced back further than the 18th century (and I'm pretty sure it is actually a later developement but am still tracking down some sources). It is a developement of the Hasidic custom of writing kvitlakh which they presented to their tsaddiq (saint or holy man). Kvirlakh were little notes requesting that the tsaddiq intervene on their behalf, sometimes between them and God, sometimes between them and their neighbour. People then began placing notes on the tombs of holy men for them to act as intercessors due to their merits. Somehow this was extended to the Western Wall as well, probably as people who couldn't make the pilgrimage themselves sent their requests with their friends.

It isn't names which are put in the wall but requests. Usually for yourself, sometimes for others. People don't tend to simply jot down names like we do.

Can you possibly verify this? Because it is being explained to LDS members of the connections and my friends are the most upright people that I know of.

I will. I certainly am not saying that your friends are dishonest. They appear to have placed too much trust in their guide's understanding of Jewish practices, that is all.

[mfbukowski]

You are apparently unaware of the Christianization movement happening in New York in Joseph Smith's day.

And what did those Masons involved in that movement think the source of those ceremonies was?

As faithful Christians I am sure they found them edifying, or they would not have been involved with them. The fact that the church has changed them from time to time clearly indicates that the source of the ceremonies is pretty irrelevant to their spiritual meaning.

[bookofmormontruth]

Maybe, but I don't see how being LDS born and raised in Israel puts me at any disadvantage. BTW, I was going to become a licensed tour guide as well.

I have never recieved a new name at the Western Wall, nor do I recall any knocks, let alone three. By robe I assume the talit is meant, and that is a prayer shawl which is worn to cover the head and shoulders. It isn't a requirement. I've also never heard the wall compared to the pargod (veil). Sounds like this guide was Mormonising Judaism.

There isn't a set ritual for the Western Wall. People go there to pray. If it is time for one of the set prayers then they pray that. If not then psalms are usually sung. The only really peculiar practice associated with the place is walking backwards after placing the note in the wall. This is a folk custom which avoids turning your back on the Shechina.

Putting notes in the wall hasn't been traced back further than the 18th century (and I'm pretty sure it is actually a later developement but am still tracking down some sources). It is a developement of the Hasidic custom of writing kvitlakh which they presented to their tsaddiq (saint or holy man). Kvirlakh were little notes requesting that the tsaddiq intervene on their behalf, sometimes between them and God, sometimes between them and their neighbour. People then began placing notes on the tombs of holy men for them to act as intercessors due to their merits. Somehow this was extended to the Western Wall as well, probably as people who couldn't make the pilgrimage themselves sent their requests with their friends.

It isn't names which are put in the wall but requests. Usually for yourself, sometimes for others. People don't tend to simply jot down names like we do.

I will. I certainly am not saying that your friends are dishonest. They appear to have placed too much trust in their guide's understanding of Jewish practices, that is all.

Sounds like it has been "Mormonised".

I emailed my friends and asked for the tour guide info, tour guide's name and explanation of the connections again in case I didn't repeat them accurately.

Do you happen to have a blog or something of your personal story? Sounds fascinating!

[Mike Reed]

And what did those Masons involved in that movement think the source of those ceremonies was?

Many (like Joseph) believed God was the source; masonry existed not only since the days of Adam, but even since before the creation of this earth.

The fact that the church has changed them from time to time clearly indicates that the source of the ceremonies is pretty irrelevant to their spiritual meaning.

Why do you say that? Did the "spiritual meaning" change in any significant way?

Also... If what you suggest is true... then what do you suppose that the relevance is?

[bookofmormontruth]

Many (like Joseph) believed God was the source; masonry existed not only since the days of Adam, but even since before the creation of this earth.

Say what?

You definitely have it backwards.

[mfbukowski]

The debate should be shifted to what valid reasoning there is for secrecy, since secrecy has been breached.

The reason for the secrecy, which we regard as sacredness, is that we have covenanted not to reveal certain portions.

No "active member" would or will reveal these sections- or it would show them, by definition, NOT to be an "active member". It would be like an "active" Baptist denying the efficacy of Baptism by immersion- the denial itself would by definition show that they were not "Baptist" since such a belief defines being Baptist, or an "Active Catholic" saying that the Eucharist was just a piece of bread.

The portions not to be revealed have meanings which are revealed to each individual according to his ability to understand their meanings- to an outsider they would appear silly and meaningless, but when studied in context, there is no end to the profundity of what may be learned about the gospel. Just as you have certain things between you and your wife, say, which are no one's business but you and your wife's, what is revealed to us in the temple is between us individually and God and is no one else's business, and so is extremely sacred. If I told you my understanding, it would no longer be just between God and me- the sacredness of it would be breached. It is "for" me and for my personal understanding, not for you personally. You have to develop your own personal understanding.

One does not even really begin to see the meanings until one has memorized virtually the whole ceremony- and the only way that can be done is by repeating the ceremonies many times over many years- and that in itself encourages temple attendance. At first one gets a glimmer that there is a "greater meaning", and for an attentive member, each time one attends an Endowment, the meaning becomes a little clearer and things are noticed which were never noticed before. Like the proverbial onion, the layers peel back one at a time.

There is a story about one of the prophets- I don't know, it could be a "faith promoting rumor" but it still shows the attitude we have toward the temple- that at an advanced age, just before entering the temple with the 12, he turned and said to them "You know brethren, I think I am just beginning to actually understand the Endowment".

One learns humility by obedience.

[Mike Reed]

Say what?

You definitely have it backwards.

I do, eh? Did your friends' tourguide say so?

[bookofmormontruth]

I do, eh? Did your friends' tourguide say so?

Oh nice zing, I am impressed!

I am curious where you got the idea that masonry existed before the world was created? I am going to guess from LDS doctrine and you stamped out that doctrine and placed it with masonry. I answered my question, thanks.