As a "critic", what is your purpose or motivation?

[Vance]

Careful with the abomination card.

Obviously teh EV thought that all other faiths were false. But being false does not equal being an abomination.

Just throwing Gervin's strawman back at him.

[mfbukowski]

Ask an older relative to confirm that protestant ministers were portrayed as being in league with Satan prior to the late 80s ...

LOL

I am quite old enough to remember myself. Your assertion is not accurate as Lehi has already told you.

[Vance]

Why not actually try to answer ANYTHING I said instead of ignoring it, . . .

Because it is OBVIOUS that you are extremely ignorant of things Mormon and therefore can't be taken serious.

Did Joseph Smith not state he was told ALL other religions were false?

No.

Wasn't the Catholic church once called the Great and Abominable Church, and Protestant Ministers represented as being in league with Satan?

Not by Joseph Smith.

These are ALL facts.

Falsehoods aren't facts.

Why are you denying Mormon doctrine?

I don't.

Why can't you accurately represent Mormon doctrine?

[ozpoof]

LOL

I am quite old enough to remember myself. Your assertion is not accurate as Lehi has already told you.

Why then was it removed? It was embarrassing for the church. Mormonism has been trying to be accepted by Christian faiths in the last few decades. With Romney possibly running the craving for acceptance by those of other faiths is palpable. You don't get accepted when you attack other faiths by naming them as Satanic or abominable.

[ozpoof]

Not by Joseph Smith.

Why can't you accurately represent Mormon doctrine?

Did I say Smith named the Catholic church as the Great and Abominable Church? No. Stop putting words in my mouth and stop playing silly games.

It's difficult to represent Mormon doctrine because everytime one of your prophets says something crazy, like Brigham Young stating Blacks will always be servants to whites and interracial couples should be put to death, or Adam was God, you pretend they never said it, or you say they were speaking as a man, not a prophet. Mormon doctrine is like the shell game in a back alley. Take your eye off it and it's changed, and the original has vanished with everyone denying it was ever there. Strange for a church led by Christ to act like that.

BTW, even if the hideous things said by some church leaders were said as men and not in their capacity as a seer and revelator, they are therefore very poor men.

[mfbukowski]

If you define miracles as events that have no natural explanation, then by definition, they can not happen. If you define a miracle as an event with a low probability of happening, then fine. I can't think of a single story you could hypothetically tell that would convince me of the first one. Did you have cancer, pray, and recover? Okay, that's type 2. Pray for rain and it came? Okay, another number 2. Did you pray for god to talk to you in the forest and saw him?

Well that sounds a lot like what happened to a guy I met yesterday in Seattle. Perhaps he should start a church.

Miracles have to do with seeing SIGNIFICANCE not with natural explanations. It's a miracle the sun comes up every day.

But yes, I have seen events with no natural explanations as well. You would be the last person I would talk to about that. The point is, they do happen.

Did you finally graduate from High School? Last time you were here I don't think you were quite out yet as I recall.

[ozpoof]

Miracles have to do with seeing SIGNIFICANCE not with natural explanations. It's a miracle the sun comes up every day.

But yes, I have seen events with no natural explanations as well. You would be the last person I would talk to about that. The point is, they do happen.

Did you finally graduate from High School? Last time you were here I don't think you were quite out yet as I recall.

No, it's not a miracle that the sun rises every day, A miracle would be if the sun reversed, or did not rise on time, The Sun rising is a result of natural forces, all explained by science.

Your "events with no natural explanations" that you claim are miracles will one day be explained by science. A cigarette lighter to a primitive, religious tribe would be seen as a miracle. Your religious mindset can't comprehend what you claim to have seen as a scientific reality so you revert to the superstitious thinking of a primitive. Until you transcend primitive thinking you can't see things as they really are - i.e science.

[Gervin]

Just throwing Gervin's strawman back at him.

What are talking about? I challenged your assertion. I appreciate that you would want to back away from it, but I posited no strawman.

[mfbukowski]

Your religious mindset can't comprehend what you claim to have seen as a scientific reality so you revert to the superstitious thinking of a primitive. Until you transcend primitive thinking you can't see things as they really are - i.e science.

LOL

I used to be an atheist, but I got better. You know nothing about me, and all you are doing is making a fool of yourself for making presumptions about people you know nothing about.

I am glad that you have found your religion!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What CFR? I said statements made by early church leaders DID and some still do represent official church doctrine. Do I need to remind you that there are early "revelations" such as that on plural marriage, that did represent official church doctrine, and other scriptures in the D&C that were made by early church leaders that still do represent official church doctrine?!?!?!? What references do you need?

And YES! Stating someone's beliefs are false is most definitely an attack on their faith! Wow......

I am not aware of any statements that have to do with the context of what we are discussing that are official. that is the CFR that I am after. You made that argument, I am asking you to provide a source.

Your claim is that early church brethren made claims that the Catholic church is the great an abominable church and that pastors of other church's are in league with Satan. I know of no official statement that currently endorses this idea. I am seeking a reference for your bald assertion that "some still do represent official church doctrine". On other boards you might be able get away with this, but it wont work here.

[mfbukowski]

It must be spring break

[ozpoof]

LOL

I used to be an atheist, but I got better. You know nothing about me, and all you are doing is making a fool of yourself for making presumptions about people you know nothing about.

I am glad that you have found your religion!

I'm not an atheist. I believe God is a scientist, not a magician. I know nothing about you not just because I'm new here but because you play the "too sacred to tell" card. How can anyone learn what you are talking about?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Don't patronize me.

I am not doing that.

This thread has nothing whatsoever to do with whether criticisms of other faiths are "official" or not.

You are right, it is alos not a thread abotu weather or not the LDS church attacks others faiths. I see you like to thread jack.

Read the first post.

I am not the one in need of reading the first post. I did not come here with lame arguments as if they were real and needed to be delt with.

It's about INDIVIDUALS because it asks critics of Mormonism their opinions who do not belong to any organization so therefore have no "official" statements or position.

Well, then speak for your own faith and not that of one which you do not belong to.

To deny that Mormonism was founded on the notion that all other faiths were false is to deny Joseph Smith's own testimony.

Who has made such a denial? JS was indeed told that God's church was not on the earth and that he was to join none of them. So what?

Also, whether Mormon Doctrine was BRM's own opinion or not, it CLEARLY was shared by many other members of the LDS faith who attacked other faiths.

You have not substanciated this. I am aware of no attacks on others faiths. Were is the video or the books that church that aare dedicated to how wrong the Catholic chruch is? Were are the books about how the EV's got it all wrong?

This thread is about critics, NOT official doctrine.

You made about this when you thread jacked it.

Please don't attack me when you clearly have not understood what the poster was asking. If you have nothing to say of substance, just say nothing.

I have not attacked you. I have attacked every one of your arguemnts. It is true I have called them unresearched and juvenille and that they lacked substance, but I have delt with them. You are dodging the issues you have brought up.

So your purpose of attcking the church is the erronous notion that the LDS church attacks other's faith?

This is how you have hi-jacked this thread.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'm not an atheist. I believe God is a scientist, not a magician. I know nothing about you not just because I'm new here but because you play the "too sacred to tell" card. How can anyone learn what you are talking about?

who played that card?

It is against board rules to talk about temple content. That is again a far cry from "to sacred to tell".

Indeed it must be srping break.

[Vance]

What are talking about?

You OBVIOUSLY missed the point I was trying to make.

I challenged your assertion.

No, you didn't challenge MY assertion because I made no assertion. I just OBVIOUSLY swapped position to show how ridiculous the statements were. But you didn't get it.

I appreciate that you would want to back away from it, . . .

Just attempting to clarify the problem here.

. . . but I posited no strawman.

I appreciate that you would want to back away from it, but if you didn't want to take ownership you shouldn't have repeated ozpoof's strawman.

[mfbukowski]

Your "events with no natural explanations" that you claim are miracles will one day be explained by science.

If you define miracles as events that have no natural explanation, then by definition, they can not happen.

You guys need to work on your scientific doctrine a little.

Either they cannot happen or they can. Which is it?

[Ceeboo]

Hi ozpoof,

Perhaps you should consider a slower pace?

There are a lot of devout LDS folk here that would be happy to give their time and have discussions about many things (perhaps you will gain, like I have, a much deeper understanding of their beliefs, perspectives, and journeys)

Hope it was OK to offer this to you.

No, it's not a miracle that the sun rises every day, A miracle would be if the sun reversed, or did not rise on time, The Sun rising is a result of natural forces, all explained by science.

BTW: You do know the sun does not move, yes? (Earth's rotation?)

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Vance]

It must be spring break

Yup! And a graduate of anti-Mormonism 101 to boot.

[bookofmormontruth]

cdowis, said:

Interesting. I have used my real name for the past XXX years in this forum and elsewhere, and have been very sharp in my comments. It's not hard to find me.

And no problems at all.

But if I were to get such a threat, I would report it to the FBI. Terroristic threats are very high on their list of priorities. They get bonus point for putting such individuals in prison.

Bonus points? Sure.

A crazed teenager in a basement is not a priority.

The Muslim extremists, I definitely reported to a ward member, but if you knew the entire story - you would have some understanding why I don't use my name and why I moved, but thank you for the "advice".

Besides, death threats are a dime a dozen online. I never took the threats seriously or the threat that my computer would be hacked then my computer crashed the next day. Glad you had no problems though and I am obviously "too sharp" for your taste, guess I can't please everyone. You need my Bishop's number?

Your comments bring down the atmosphere of this forum to a bar room brawl, rather than a spirited and respectful discussion.

Rob Bowman doesn't deserve my respect and I don't attend bars.

I strongly disagree with his views,

Like "strongly disagreeing" with Temple content that is on his website?

but he is a guest here, by personal invitation.

And that makes him more important than any other user?

Again, I suggest that you use the ignore function.

No worries, I will leave Rob alone, his website exposed enough for me to know his real motivations, but I really appreciate the suggestion.

[ozpoof]

I am not aware of any statements that have to do with the context of what we are discussing that are official. that is the CFR that I am after. You made that argument, I am asking you to provide a source.

Your claim is that early church brethren made claims that the Catholic church is the great an abominable church and that pastors of other church's are in league with Satan. I know of no official statement that currently endorses this idea. I am seeking a reference for your bald assertion that "some still do represent official church doctrine". On other boards you might be able get away with this, but it wont work here.

I've provided two quotes already about the Abominable church. It was also published in Mormon Doctrine which was written by a man who later became an apostle. He couldn't have been guilty of preaching false doctrine then be made an apostle.

The statement about protestant leaders is a sensitive one that I have been warned not to discuss. That might give you a clue where it happened.

Yet again *sigh*, the original post, you know the one back at page one, asks critics for their opinion. The poster stated that Mormons don't criticize other faiths. "Mormon Doctrine" by itself proves they DO, however so does the testimony of Joseph Smith who said he was told all other faiths are false. This is a criticism of their faiths, so as I have already stated several times, the very foundation of Mormonism is based on criticizing other faiths.

And again.......really, is this so hard to grasp?.........whether or not the Mormon church "currently" attacks other religions officially is IRRELEVANT. Even if one Mormon repeats the mantra we were all taught as kids that all the other faiths are false and only Mormonism has the truth, THAT'S CRITICIZING OTHER FAITHS. There are quotes I have provided that show men in high ranking positions and Mormon publications stating Catholicism is the Whore of Babylon and the Great Abominable Church! Are you denying Mormons ever said these things? Are you denying Mormons today still claim the church was founded because Joseph Smith was told all creeds and faiths were false? It's right there in your Quad in JSH! Do you want me to go looking for the actual page and line for you? Do you want me to spoon-feed you?

Also, please don't threaten me. You might be able to do that here, but on other boards people act more civilly.

Read what I said again and please try really hard to understand it. Joseph Smith, your first prophet and founder of the church you belong to said that ALL other faiths were false, which was why (he claims) Mormonism had to be established. Has this been changed by the church or is it still official doctrine that the truth had to be restored? How much of this do you need spelling out for you?

[ozpoof]

Hi ozpoof,

Perhaps you should consider a slower pace?

There are a lot of devout LDS folk here that would be happy to give their time and have discussions about many things (perhaps you will gain, like I have, a much deeper understanding of their beliefs, perspectives, and journeys)

Hope it was OK to offer this to you.

BTW: You do know the sun does not move, yes? (Earth's rotation?)

Peace,

Ceeboo

Yes, I am aware the Earth rotates. If you care to look back you will see I was responding to another person's statement. Perhaps you could condescend to them also.

It's fairly difficult to have an in-depth discussion with a devout LDS member since any challenge to their beliefs is seen as an attack by Lucifer. How do you reason with that?

[Rob Bowman]

To all LDS participating in this thread:

I am just wondering if you all agree with Mr. Bukowski's claims in the following post.

Thank you.

Stressing your phrase "other life decisions requiring wisdom" AND including the above admonition that the Holy Spirit can and does admonish us to change our lives, AND including the various admonitions in the Bible to "ask God for wisdom", you are completely right- I see no difference whatsoever.

The problem here is that by privileging "believers" you leave no way for a non-believer to become a believer. If non-believers cannot be guided by the Spirit, they could never become believers. They could never receive a testimony of Christ. And what you DON'T understand is that a belief in Christ is not a pre-requisite for the Moroni experience, and it doesn't say that it is:

"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ASK GOD, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost."

"All" it says is to ASK IN THE NAME OF CHRIST- it says nothing about believing in Christ. The entire point is that the experience can GIVE you a testimony of Christ AND the church in one fell swoop.

I know that because it happened that way to me. It is no different than an altar call, where one receives an invitation, (from the minister at the altar, or by reading the Moroni promise) taking action on the invitation, which manifests some level of faith (by approaching the altar- or for that matter saying the sinners prayer, or by asking sincerely in prayer about the Book of Mormon)and then receiving one's answer- "the testimony" for the Evangelical, that they are "saved" or for the Mormon that 1-(if they didn't already know) that Jesus is the Christ and 2- that the church is the Lord's church.

I am sure it is very similar also for Evangelicals- once one is "saved"- what church would one attend? The church which taught them salvation!

No difference. Guess I am just to dumb according to you, to see it.

I took nothing out of context- in fact I quoted most of the article in its entirety. And this may be a surprise to you, but we also think that the Book of Mormon fits just fine with our interpretation of the Bible.

Notify anybody you like about anything- this is an empty threat because I am certainly not harassing you in any way. Ignore me all you like- it will just prove my assertions.

But I do have good news and bad news.

The bad news is that I find your alleged "distinctions" between the Evangelical testimony and Mormon testimony to be so confused as to be virtually unintelligible, and the good news is that I finally really do believe it is the best explanation you can give.

That is the good news for now- I won't bother you with it again until you bring it up again.

[ozpoof]

You guys need to work on your scientific doctrine a little.

Either they cannot happen or they can. Which is it?

Well since no example was ever given - too sacred to talk about - who knows?

[Ceeboo]

Yes, I am aware the Earth rotates. If you care to look back you will see I was responding to another person's statement. Perhaps you could condescend to them also.

It's fairly difficult to have an in-depth discussion with a devout LDS member since any challenge to their beliefs is seen as an attack by Lucifer. How do you reason with that?

Fair enough.

Sorry that it seems you took my advice/suggestion the wrong way (I offered it to you ONLY because I noticed how few posts you had. Nothing more was intended by it)

Peace,

Ceeboo

[William Schryver]

ozpoop:

He couldn't have been guilty of preaching false doctrine then be made an apostle.

Why not? Saul/Paul was.

And although I believe Bruce R. McConkie was called of God, and was a valiant witness of Christ, and a true Apostle--I also think he made his share of mistakes when it came to doctrinal exposition. Of course, I don't require my prophets and apostles to be perfect all the time. It's enough for me that they are righteous and inspired more often than they're not. In fact, I'm pretty much convinced that God sends down to the leaders of His church just enough revelation to compensate for their mistakes and imperfections. And the older I get, the more I understand the divine wisdom at work in such a course of action.