As a "critic", what is your purpose or motivation?

[Rob Bowman]

zerinus,

Thanks for your reply. You're right, the LDS practice is to ask the Father for a personal revelation from the Holy Ghost, not to ask the Holy Ghost himself. Either way, the initiative comes from you to ask God for the personal revelation. Not all evangelicals are predestinarian; those who are not would say that although God initiates the revelatory work of the Holy Spirit to convict a person of sin and convince that person about Christ, the individual can resist the work of the Spirit and reject Christ. So predestination is not the issue here.

I would also point out that in all of the biblical texts you cited, the issue is knowing the truth about Christ, not the inspiration of a book of Scripture.

To us they are the same thing. A testimony of the Holy Ghost and a personal revelation are the same thing.

Whatever it is, it is a personal revelation form the Holy Ghost. The Lord tells Peter what it is:

"flesh and blood has not

revealed

it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 16:17)

Several mistakes in that one: firstly, the "revelatory work of the Spirit" is focussed on truth, the totality of all truth (which includes the Christ):

John 16

:

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1 John 2

:

20 But ye have an unction [anointing] from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

* * *

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Secondly, the initiative must come from the believer, otherwise no one would be condemned for not believing. I know that goes contrary to your false theology of predestination; but you need to understand that we are not predestinarians. No one is predestined to be saved or damned. You make that choice, and God respects your choice.

And thirdly, we do not "ask the Holy Spirit for a revelatory experience;" we pray to the Father in the name of Christ, and He will make the truth of it known to us by the power of the Holy Ghost:

Moroni 10

:

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

[Vance]

I would also point out that in all of the biblical texts you cited, the issue is knowing the truth about Christ, not the inspiration of a book of Scripture.

John 16:

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

WOW!!!

I don't know about you, but, Bowman has me convinced. Sarcasm/off

[Gervin]

The Book of Mormon is addressed to a future generation who are already believers in the Judo/Christian faith, and the author takes it as a "given" that for a believer in God/Jesus Christ, obtaining the truth of a divine claim by prayer is valid proposition. You do not need to "presuppose the truth of the Book of Mormon" in order to apply that test; what you need to "presuppose" the existence of a God who hears and answers prayer.

I did not know this; so the LDS missionaries require that some first believes in the claims of Christ before praying about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon? How is the investigator's belief manifested to the satisfaction of the missionary?

In a way He did: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" (Matthew 7:7-8; Luke 11:9), amounts to the same thing.

Wasn't Christ speaking to those who already believed in Him? Do you interpret this as instruction to test Christ's truth claims?

[Gervin]

Because one of God's prophets said so.

But, for anyone who believes the Bible to be true (which doesn't identify a test to discern if it it true), James explicitly said that anyone who lacks wisdom can ask, and God will not upbraid him for asking.

James is addressing the brethren - aren't these people who already believe? Also, wisdom and knowledge are different things; knowledge is gaining truth, wisdom applying truth.

I don't know where you find this: Moroni's test says you have to have faith (not in the Book of Mormon) in Christ, that you must ask with "real intent". Here's the quote:

Where does it say you have to believe first? (Hint: it doesn't.)

Now, it does say you have to "hav[e] real intent", but that only means that, when you get the answer "Yes, the Book of Mormon is true", you must be committed to doing what that entails: joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and following the teachings she will give you. You must be sincere, meaning that when you get the answer "Yes, the Book of Mormon is true", you must be committed to doing what that entails: joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and following the teachings she will give you.

I understand Moroni's promise - it's the step taken before undertaking that test that I'm interested in. The Book of Mormon establishes its own test for the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. This appears to be illogical; by applying Moroni's test you've already accepted the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon to provide an accurate test of its truthfulness.

Who knows why the Bible doesn't record such a commandment? But we see the strong implication that we will receive truth only when we do ask Him. Unless you believe that ignorance (a lack of knowledge) is preferable to asking "God, who giveth [wisdom] to all men liberally", providing they "ask in faith, nothing wavering". Which biblical scripture is very nearly like the one in Moroni. In fact, I'd be pleased to see any significant difference between them.

If we receive truth only when we ask for truth, then Christ was somehow remiss in stating "I am Truth" without also instructing us to test His truth claim. I would think that if someone was really Truth then that claim could stand on its own.

[Gervin]

Let me ask you. How does a person without a knowledge of the Lord, know He truly is the Truth? How do we know what is "good"?

thanks for the question and I will respond when I have some time to put together an answer outside of work. /G

[zerinus]

You're right, the LDS practice is to ask the Father for a personal revelation from the Holy Ghost, . . .

Wrong! We ask the Father in the name of Christ to reveal the truth of it to us, and the Father reveals it by the means He has appointed, which is the Holy Ghost. We don’t tell the Father how to reveal the truth to us. He chooses to do so by means of the agent of His appointment, which is the Holy Ghost.

Either way, the initiative comes from you to ask God for the personal revelation. . . .

True, and you still haven’t given a convincing answer as to what might be wrong with that.

I would also point out that in all of the biblical texts you cited, the issue is knowing the truth about Christ, not the inspiration of a book of Scripture.

Two answers to that:

Firstly, it is about all truth, not just some truth:

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into

all truth

” (John 16:13).

“But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know

all things

” (1 John 2:20).

“the same anointing teacheth you of

all things,

and is truth, and is no lie” (1 John 2:27)

Secondly, the Book of Mormon is also about Christ. It is another witness of Him. It tells us things about Him, and the mighty works He has done, that we knew nothing of before. It is an invaluable new source of information about, and testimony of, Him. It glorifies Him, telling us of the kinds of things He has done.

[LeSellers]

True, and you still haven’t given a convincing answer as to what might be wrong with that.

I believe you meant: "True, and you still haven’t given a plausible, scripture-based answer as to what might be wrong with that."

Lehi

[zerinus]

I did not know this; so the LDS missionaries require that some first believes in the claims of Christ before praying about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon? How is the investigator's belief manifested to the satisfaction of the missionary?

The investigator is expected to exercise a minimal of faith in God to apply the test; otherwise the test could obviously not be applied. The fact that the investigator accepts the challenge to apply the test is a demonstration that he is willing to exercise that particle of faith.

Wasn't Christ speaking to those who already believed in Him? Do you interpret this as instruction to test Christ's truth claims?

He was speaking to a group of people some of whom would have already believed in Him (i.e. were His disciples), while others might not have been, but were interested enough to go and listen to Him. They would be equivalent to what we call investigators.

[Rob Bowman]

zerinus,

In response to my comment that the revelatory work of the Holy Spirit is focused on revealing Christ, not revealing the truth about a book, you cited John 16:13 and 1 John 2:20, 27. But "all truth" and "all things" have to be understood in context. Jesus was not promising that twenty-first century Bible readers would get special revelations from the Holy Spirit informing them as to the age of the universe, or who wrote Hebrews, or how to resolve apparent discrepancies in Scripture, or if Ecclesiastes or Song of Solomon belong in the canon of Scripture, or whether there is a genetic factor in people with same-sex attraction, or if Joseph Smith was really authorized by God to take all those girls and women as wives, or who will win Wimbledon this year.

In any case, we've gotten off track in this thread. I was misrepresented as affirming the validity of "personal revelation" in a sense I don't affirm, and I have clarified my position. I would rather not continue to derail this thread from its stated subject.

Wrong! We ask the Father in the name of Christ to reveal the truth of it to us, and the Father reveals it by the means He has appointed, which is the Holy Ghost. We don’t tell the Father how to reveal the truth to us. He chooses to do so by means of the agent of His appointment, which is the Holy Ghost.

True, and you still haven’t given a convincing answer as to what might be wrong with that.

Two answers to that:

Firstly, it is about all truth, not just some truth:

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into

all truth

” (John 16:13).

“But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know

all things

” (1 John 2:20).

“the same anointing teacheth you of

all things,

and is truth, and is no lie” (1 John 2:27)

Secondly, the Book of Mormon is also about Christ. It is another witness of Him. It tells us things about Him, and the mighty works He has done, that we knew nothing of before. It is an invaluable new source of information about, and testimony of, Him. It glorifies Him, telling us of the kinds of things He has done.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

zerinus,

In response to my comment that the revelatory work of the Holy Spirit is focused on revealing Christ, not revealing the truth about a book, you cited John 16:13 and 1 John 2:20, 27. But "all truth" and "all things" have to be understood in context. Jesus was not promising that twenty-first century Bible readers would get special revelations from the Holy Spirit informing them as to the age of the universe, or who wrote Hebrews, or how to resolve apparent discrepancies in Scripture, or if Ecclesiastes or Song of Solomon belong in the canon of Scripture, or whether there is a genetic factor in people with same-sex attraction, or if Joseph Smith was really authorized by God to take all those girls and women as wives, or who will win Wimbledon this year.

In any case, we've gotten off track in this thread. I was misrepresented as affirming the validity of "personal revelation" in a sense I don't affirm, and I have clarified my position. I would rather not continue to derail this thread from its stated subject.

The above is an example of why I stopped believing Mr. Bowman's "sincereity" years ago.

[zerinus]

James is addressing the brethren - aren't these people who already believe?

Yes; and as I explained, the Book of Mormon promise also presupposes a minimal of faith or belief in God.

Also, wisdom and knowledge are different things; knowledge is gaining truth, wisdom applying truth.

The word "wisdom" is used in the Bible with a variety of meanings, including having the skill of a craftsman or artisan (e.g. Exodus 31:6).

I understand Moroni's promise - it's the step taken before undertaking that test that I'm interested in. The Book of Mormon establishes its own test for the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. This appears to be illogical; by applying Moroni's test you've already accepted the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon to provide an accurate test of its truthfulness.

I thought I just explained to you why that is not correct. The Book of Mormon presupposes a minimal of faith in God to apply the test, not faith in the Book of Mormon.

If we receive truth only when we ask for truth, then Christ was somehow remiss in stating "I am Truth" without also instructing us to test His truth claim. I would think that if someone was really Truth then that claim could stand on its own.

That is a silly and illogical question to ask. The Book of Mormon is not the same as Christ. It is a book of modern day revelation that claims to originate form Christ; and we are advised to pray to God to ask for a confirmation of that claim.

[zerinus]

zerinus,

In response to my comment that the revelatory work of the Holy Spirit is focused on revealing Christ, not revealing the truth about a book, you cited John 16:13 and 1 John 2:20, 27. But "all truth" and "all things" have to be understood in context. Jesus was not promising that twenty-first century Bible readers would get special revelations from the Holy Spirit informing them as to the age of the universe, or who wrote Hebrews, or how to resolve apparent discrepancies in Scripture, or if Ecclesiastes or Song of Solomon belong in the canon of Scripture, or whether there is a genetic factor in people with same-sex attraction, or if Joseph Smith was really authorized by God to take all those girls and women as wives, or who will win Wimbledon this year.

LOL! I can see cracks appearing in your defences already.

I believe that "all truth" means exactly that, all truth; but I also believe that it primarily means the kind of truth that leads to salvation; and that is exactly the kind of truth that the Book of Mormon is. The Book of Mormon is not just any old book. It is a book of scripture heralding the new dawn of the "dispensation of the fulness of times" in which God will "gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him" (Ephesians 1:10). That is the kind of stuff we are dealing with in the Book of Mormon; therefore it fully qualifies for belonging to that category of "truth" that God would want to reveal to us above all other kinds of truths.

In any case, we've gotten off track in this thread. I was misrepresented as affirming the validity of "personal revelation" in a sense I don't affirm, and I have clarified my position. I would rather not continue to derail this thread from its stated subject.

The crack appears wide open now! Just whom do you think you are going to fool with this kind of talk? Maybe the Evans; but not Mormons! Mormons are too smart to fall for that!

[Rob Bowman]

BOML,

You wrote:

The above is an example of why I stopped believing Mr. Bowman's "sincereity" years ago.

"Years ago"? When did you first have reason to find fault with me, and what was the issue? Have we had contact in the past?

[Rob Bowman]

zerinus,

You wrote:

LOL! I can see cracks appearing in your defences already.

Nice to see someone taking matters of eternal importance so seriously.

You wrote:

I believe that "all truth" means exactly that, all truth; but I also believe that it primarily means the kind of truth that leads to salvation; and that is exactly the kind of truth that the Book of Mormon is. The Book of Mormon is not just any old book. It is a book of scripture heralding the new dawn of the "dispensation of the fulness of times" in which God will "gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him" (Ephesians 1:10).

The Book of Mormon is about 1800 years too late for that.

You wrote:

The crack appears wide open now! Just whom do you think you are going to fool with this kind of talk? Maybe the Evans; but not Mormons! Mormons are too smart to fall for that!

So, Mormons are smarter than evangelicals? What kind of abuse do you think I would get here if I were to claim that evangelicals are smarter than Mormons, even with a happy face?

[mfbukowski]

Mr. Bukowski,

I wrote: Here you have mistakenly equated a personal testimony with a personal revelation. I affirm the validity of the former but not of the latter.

You asked:

Sure. Evangelicals use the term "personal testimony" to mean the individual Christian telling others what Christ has done for them. For example, an evangelical might talk about how he was burdened by guilt and shame over things he'd done, until he heard the gospel and trusted in Jesus Christ, when that guilt and shame were lifted and he knew the peace of God's forgiveness and acceptance. Or he might talk about a seemingly strange series of "coincidences" by which he came to hear the gospel and believe, which he later could see in retrospect was divine providential leading. There are thousands of different stories like these; no two are identical.

A "personal revelation" would mean a special communication from God to the individual that is apart from or beyond the revelation provided already in Scripture, and other than the convicting work of the Holy Spirit. All evangelicals believe that the Holy Spirit reveals Christ to believers in the sense of convincing people that they are sinners and that they need to trust in Christ as their Savior. However, this revealing work of the Spirit is not the impartation of some special individualized revelation in the sense of being a supernatural experience or extra-scriptural verbal communication. Furthermore, the revelatory work of the Spirit is focused on Christ and is initiated by the Spirit, not by the believer (or potential believer). No biblical text, for example, suggests that an unbeliever ask the Holy Spirit for a revelatory experience to prove to them that Jesus is the Savior. The initiative is all on the side of the Holy Spirit, not of us.

I appreciate your attempt to answer my question, but I think you have answered a different question than the one I asked.

It is a commonplace among evangelicals that "God doesn't have grandchildren" -- that is, that each person must have a personal faith in Christ, not merely accepting the faith of another. Hence, the evangelical insistence on knowing Christ as "one's personal Lord and Savior." Evangelicals also typically have personal "testimonies" about how they came to Christ and what he has meant in their lives. These testimonies are also not transferable.

Let me try and make it very very specific.

How does one "know Christ as one's personal Lord and Savior" without "merely accepting the faith of another" and yet that "knowing" is NOT:

A "personal revelation" would mean a special communication from God to the individual that is apart from or beyond the revelation provided already in Scripture,

You have also specifically excluded "the convicting work of the Holy Spirit", from counting as "personal revelation" but I am not sure what you mean by that.

It seems that you are saying that God can answer and confirm that you have done the right thing, but only after you have done it, not if you ask him first what is right in a certain situation. For example, finding oneself convicted by guilt and aware of one's sinless nature, and then asking God what to do about it in prayer, could one receive an answer that one should "accept Jesus" as one's savior?

How does one make a decision to "accept Christ" without "personal revelation" (call it what you will) that it is the right thing to do?

I find all these nuances and distinctions and rules about what does and does not constitute "revelation" or "personal testimony" to be far from the spirit found in these verses:

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Thessalonians 5:19-21 Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things: hold fast that which is good.

I have no problem starting a new thread with these questions if you would like to go that way.

[zerinus]

Nice to see someone taking matters of eternal importance so seriously.

LOL! This is a debating chamber, and sarcasm is part of the cut and thrust of debate.

The Book of Mormon is about 1800 years too late for that.

Wrong! this is the "restoration" spoken of in Acts 3:21: "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." This is the beginning of that "restoration" spoken of, and likewise of that "dispensation".

So, Mormons are smarter than evangelicals? What kind of abuse do you think I would get here if I were to claim that evangelicals are smarter than Mormons, even with a happy face?

See above. Playing the victim won't get you very far round here. You will only generate more amusement.

[mfbukowski]

I probably didn't phrase my question well. How do you know that the test for proving the Book of Mormon is true? You must first believe (presuppose) that the Book is true and the test is a valid way of discerning truth, correct?

I, again, probably didn't make myself clear. If Christ IS Truth, then why did he not instruct us to pray to receive an answer to affirm His claim? Yet, for the Book of Mormon we are instructed (by the Book, see above) to discern truth [would you call this a lesser or subordinate truth?] by praying for a sign from the Holy Ghost.

In fact, he did:

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Thessalonians 5:19-21 "Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things: hold fast that which is good."

It is not necessary to presuppose the truth of the BOM. When I first saw that, I knew very little about the BOM, except for the fact that it made that extraordinary claim.

I prayed and got my answer- a major spiritual experience, a life-changing one. I knew instantly it was what the Lord wanted of me. No doubts possible.

It doesn't happen that way for everyone, but it did for me.

[mfbukowski]

You are not really "praying for a sign from the Holy Ghost" but rather praying for the Holy Ghost to reveal truth to you.

Some critics make a big deal about the specific wording in Moroni, rather than looking to understand the principle being taught.

As far finding truth through prayer, (and in addition to the verses zerinus cited), the Bible also has these gems.

Prov 15:29 The Lord is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

2 Chron 15:4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the Lord God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.

Matt 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Matt 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Luke 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

James 4:2 . . . yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

And some critics say that praying to know truth is some how unBiblical.

Good ones!

[mfbukowski]

The above is an example of why I stopped believing Mr. Bowman's "sincereity" years ago.

AND why I think he avoids difficult questions.

[mfbukowski]

I will post this here, and wait for a reply; if he does not respond I will open a new thread tomorrow re-asking the same questions.

At least we will give Rob advanced notice of what the questions will be.

If you are LDS and want some excellent Biblical quotes for our position, I would suggest that you look at these Evangelical sites (!)

I don't know how Rob can say that Evangelicals "don't take the initiative" in asking God for answers when you read these:

http://www.suite101.com/content/a-prayer-for-wisdom-to-make-difficult-decisions-a173626

http://jeffgoins.myadventures.org/?filename=the-importance-of-prayer-in-decisionmaking

http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/inspirationalteaching/palagyi_divinedirection.aspx

http://fbcrichmond.org/sermons/1-17-99sermon.htm

http://www.teachingpages.co.uk/topicPresentation.php?articleDecisions

http://christianity.about.com/od/newchristians/qt/decisionmaking.htm

All I did was google "praying about decisions" and got pages and pages of similar material.

I think that it is clear that any Evangelical who thinks that "praying about the Book of Mormon" is wrong on Biblical grounds is just plain inconsistent with the dominant Evangelical position about praying for answers.

It is just plain clear that Evangelicals pray about and for specific answers all the time.

And as I said, there are many quotes from the Bible which support our position which I never noticed before and would not have, had I not sought out Evangelical sources!!

But in the interest of Christian unity- notice how that many of these articles could have been written by LDS members!

[Rob Bowman]

Mr. Bukowski,

You wrote:

I will post this here, and wait for a reply; if he does not respond I will open a new thread tomorrow re-asking the same questions.

I wish you wouldn't, not because I want to avoid answering supposedly hard questions, but because I already have too much on my plate. I have agreed to review Brant's critique of the DVD The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon. I have already spent a good amount of time working through that little project and have a lot more work to do on it. I have a lot of other things to do as well. Furthermore, I am pessimistic that we can even achieve satisfactory understanding on your part of what I have been saying. I will illustrate. You wrote:

I don't know how Rob can say that Evangelicals "don't take the initiative" in asking God for answers when you read these

But I didn't say that evangelicals never take the initiative to ask God for anything.

You then list several links to evangelical articles that talk about praying to God for help in making decisions. I probably disagreed with only one of the web articles you listed (a blogger's rather off-the-cuff remarks). And the fact is that the more specific teaching articles you cited clearly agree with my approach to decision-making. For example, the article on CBN.com teaches that we should pray for wisdom, which it explains is a problem-solving, decision-making ability. It also says to "check your decision against God's Word"--which assumes that God's Word (which the author of course understands to be the Bible) is the standard by which decisions, even those about which we pray, are to be judged. The article at about.com is similar. "If God has already revealed his will in Scripture, your only response is to obey." Can you agree with that? I do. The article goes on to advise that Christians find out what the Bible says about the decision, seek counsel from godly leaders, weigh the pros and cons, establish one's priorities, and make a decision. It also says that sometimes there is no one right answer and the Christian is free to do whatever he or she chooses! I think this particular article nails it. How you thought this article was supportive of anything comparable to the Moroni test is beyond me.

[mfbukowski]

Mr Bowman

I am sorry your plate is full. Of course you understand that that can be interpreted as "avoidance", which is a pet peeve of mine.

I have found that when one goes to another faith's website and disagrees with the commonly held positions of that faith, one's plate can get very full very quickly. That is one of the reasons I don't do that anymore.

There is no need to reply quickly; as long as you do reply. One course might be to assure us that you will reply when time permits, and then allow us from time to time to remind you of that particular post.

I find this discussion to be of incredible importance.

In fact all the claims of Mormonism rest on whether or not personal revelation is legitimate. If you think other questions are more important, of course, that is your decision.

I really feel that you have not yet answered this question:

How does one make a decision to "accept Christ" without "personal revelation" (call it what you will) that it is the right thing to do?

in light of the posted "decision making" scriptures I posted by other Evangelicals earlier- here:

I don't know how Rob can say that Evangelicals "don't take the initiative" in asking God for answers when you read these:

http://www.suite101.com/content/a-prayer-for-wisdom-to-make-difficult-decisions-a173626

http://jeffgoins.myadventures.org/?filename=the-importance-of-prayer-in-decisionmaking

http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/inspirationalteaching/palagyi_divinedirection.aspx

http://fbcrichmond.org/sermons/1-17-99sermon.htm

http://www.teachingpages.co.uk/topicPresentation.php?articleDecisions

http://christianity.about.com/od/newchristians/qt/decisionmaking.htm

All I did was google "praying about decisions" and got pages and pages of similar material.

I will be willing to wait for your reply, but I am not going anywhere on this issue until it is resolved. I have been trying to get this resolved now for months and months.

Incidentally, I would accept an answer that we cannot resolve this issue because of alternate, unresolvable interpretations of the Bible. I can live with that as long as you acknowledge that our understanding of the Moroni "Promise" can indeed be seen as a possible "Biblical" interpretation.

But I don't think you will see it that way, and yet, in light of those other Evangelical sites, I cannot see how it is at all different.

[mfbukowski]

Mr. Bowman

All evangelicals believe that the Holy Spirit reveals Christ to believers in the sense of convincing people that they are sinners and that they need to trust in Christ as their Savior. However, this revealing work of the Spirit is not the impartation of some special individualized revelation in the sense of being a supernatural experience or extra-scriptural verbal communication. Furthermore, the revelatory work of the Spirit is focused on Christ and is initiated by the Spirit, not by the believer (or potential believer). No biblical text, for example, suggests that an unbeliever ask the Holy Spirit for a revelatory experience to prove to them that Jesus is the Savior. The initiative is all on the side of the Holy Spirit, not of us.

But I didn't say that evangelicals never take the initiative to ask God for anything.

Perhaps you can see why I am confused and why you appear to be avoiding the question?

Do they take the initiative or not? You can't have it both ways. If they EVER take the initiative, it is the same as the Moroni Promise.

[mfbukowski]

Mr Bowman

You then list several links to evangelical articles that talk about praying to God for help in making decisions. I probably disagreed with only one of the web articles you listed (a blogger's rather off-the-cuff remarks). And the fact is that the more specific teaching articles you cited clearly agree with my approach to decision-making. For example, the article on CBN.com teaches that we should pray for wisdom, which it explains is a problem-solving, decision-making ability. It also says to "check your decision against God's Word"--which assumes that God's Word (which the author of course understands to be the Bible) is the standard by which decisions, even those about which we pray, are to be judged. The article at about.com is similar. "If God has already revealed his will in Scripture, your only response is to obey." Can you agree with that? I do. The article goes on to advise that Christians find out what the Bible says about the decision, seek counsel from godly leaders, weigh the pros and cons, establish one's priorities, and make a decision. It also says that sometimes there is no one right answer and the Christian is free to do whatever he or she chooses! I think this particular article nails it. How you thought this article was supportive of anything comparable to the Moroni test is beyond me.

I am sorry I am putting more on your plate, but I have to respond to this directly

Yes, I agree with "checking with God's word" which is precisely why I follow those Bible verses cited by the other Evangelicals on those sites for following advice God has given me. The Bible is indeed the standard, and what it tells me repeatedly is to "ask God" for direction.

And yes, I obey what God tells me when he answers me. That is why I am LDS.

But if you are going to tell me that the CBN.com article disagrees with my position, I couldn't disagree with you more!

This is in fact what the CBN article says:

Divine Direction

Wisdom might be defined today as “knowledge, the ability to discern inner qualities and relationships, insight, and judgment.” Biblical wisdom, however, was described by the Hebrew word chakmah. It was more than common sense and was characterized by skill and craftsmanship, cleverness and cunning, and prudence in everyday matters. Wisdom graced the lives of many biblical figures—Daniel, Ezra, Joshua—and brought them great success.

How do you find wisdom today? Where do you go to have your problems solved and questions answered? The answer is to go to the source of all wisdom, God Himself. He is the one who created you—He has placed His gifts and callings within you and understands their worth. Certainly, He is a good steward of His gifts and will develop them to their maturity.

God is also the one who understands your past and future—He has intrinsic knowledge of your weaknesses and strengths. The Lord will protect you, yet challenge you to grow in your Christian walk.

Finally, God will lead you along a path that will fulfill His plans for your life. He is the one who knows the direction you are to follow and will lead accordingly.

So, how do you begin? Here are five basic steps for receiving wisdom from God.

1. Acknowledge that God has the answer. God is the source of wisdom for all things. Realize that He not only has the answer, He is the answer. Proverbs 2:6 and 9 states, “For the LORD gives wisdom, and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding… Then you will understand what is right and just and fair—every good path.”

2. Pray and ask for God’s wisdom. How can you be sure God will answer when you ask Him? James 1:5 says, “If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.” So simply ask for

God’s help and then…

3. Believe He will guide you. Faith is an important component to accepting God’s wisdom. You must recognize the fact that God wants to communicate with you. Proverbs 4:18 says, “The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining ever brighter till the full light of day.” God’s direction in your decision will become clearer and more distinct as you continue to pray and ask for His help.

4. Get in motion. You have probably heard the saying “It is hard to steer a parked car.” Begin to do your part and research your vocational options. Travel with your family and investigate the prospective area first hand. Explore the housing market, recreational opportunities, and cost of living. Your move could be a blessing in disguise, allowing your family greater financial freedom.

5. Check your decision against God’s Word. James 3:15-17 provides the characteristics of true godly wisdom: “But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.” Have the courage to ask yourself whether your choice meets these qualifications for God’s wisdom, or whether there are still any outside influences directing your path.

If you sense any anxiety or confusion, keep praying. God’s wisdom will direct your paths in a peaceful manner.

God is the source of all wisdom. Only He views your life from an eternal and comprehensive perspective. Allow Him to become part of your decision–making process and guarantee yourself a lifetime of success.

I don't think there is one LDS member here who would disagree with any word of that.

[Mars]

If I can speak for Mr Bowman, I got the feeling he was saying that praying to ask God only works when you're praying about Christ.

The Book of Mormon, preaching a different Christ, wouldn't qualify as something that we could pray to God about.

I think.