As a "critic", what is your purpose or motivation?

[bookofmormontruth]

Here is, in my mind, the test that would demonstrate the honesty of your ministry: if you find that the DVD is dishonest, would you not only stop recommending it, but request in the spirit of Christian brotherhood that the producers to stop all production and distribution? Would you post a counter recommendation on your site that people shy away from this disingenuous propaganda?

Lehi

Mind you, it is 2 DVDs that they "recommend" on their website that according to FAIR are classified under "anti-Mormon" material. I haven't really looked at the other "recommendations" fully, but those 2 DVDs are the most telling.

But as Rob mentioned, to answer you question. It wouldn't be "appropriate" to take those actions for after-all, only those who question critic's motives are the ones seen as "uncharitable" and "dishonest".

[Rob Bowman]

BOMT,

You wrote:

If our "critics" stood behind truth and were not threatened and afraid then they would give a link to a free copy of the Book of Mormon with a sincere statement:

"We believe and adamantly reject the Book of Mormon as being the word of God for theses reasons..................., but we don't want you to take our word for it or anyone else's' words for that matter. We invite everyone to read the Book of Mormon themselves, ponder its message and pray to the source of all truth (God) if the Book of Mormon is true".

First of all, I have to say that at some point I am going to tire of people constantly questioning my honesty and sincerity. That point may be fast approaching. It may be fun for some of you to make my motivation the issue, but it really shouldn't be.

Second, you may or may not know this, but I don't endorse the "Moroni test" for determining if the Book of Mormon is true. I'm all for praying about the Book of Mormon, but I cannot endorse the approach you are suggesting, at least not as Mormons usually understand it.

Third, it is awfully easy for anyone to get a copy of the Book of Mormon or to read it online, and anyone who was at all interested in our website's resources on the LDS religion would certainly know how to get a copy if they didn't already have one.

Fourth, I can show you something rather similar to what you are proposing that is already on our website. I am producing a series of articles called the Gospel Principles Scripture Study Guide. It is a chapter-by-chapter response to the LDS doctrinal manual Gospel Principles. On the home page of that study guide, you will find a link to the official LDS Church website's online versions of Gospel Principles. Surely this shows that I am neither threatened nor afraid for people to read the LDS publications for themselves.

[ttribe]

Fourth, I can show you something rather similar to what you are proposing that is already on our website. I am producing a series of articles called the Gospel Principles Scripture Study Guide. It is a chapter-by-chapter response to the LDS doctrinal manual Gospel Principles. On the home page of that study guide, you will find a link to the official LDS Church website's online versions of Gospel Principles. Surely this shows that I am neither threatened nor afraid for people to read the LDS publications for themselves.

[sigh] Why do you even bother spending time on such an endeavor? People with even an ounce of critical thinking skills will be able to identify the fact that it takes just as much "interpretation" of the scriptures to adopt your position as it does ours. ETA: IMO, such a thing does nothing more than add to the confirmation bias of the readers who are on either side of the debate. Non-value added.

[Rob Bowman]

Lehi,

Again, it isn't my job to demonstrate the honesty of our ministry to your satisfaction.

If I find that the DVD is dishonest, I will certainly contact the publishers of the DVD and express my concerns. Our website does not currently have articles criticizing other people's materials critical of Mormonism that we don't recommend, though I wouldn't have a problem with having some articles of that nature, within certain reasonable limits.

If I find some articles on FAIR's website website that are dishonest, would it be reasonable for me to ask the Maxwell Institute to post articles on its site recommending that people avoid FAIR's propaganda? More to the point, would I be justified in saying that unless they comply with such a request, they will have failed to demonstrate their honesty?

Here is, in my mind, the test that would demonstrate the honesty of your ministry: if you find that the DVD is dishonest, would you not only stop recommending it, but request in the spirit of Christian brotherhood that the producers stop all production and distribution? Would you post a counter recommendation on your site that people shy away from this disingenuous propaganda?

Lehi

[bookofmormontruth]

First of all, I have to say that at some point I am going to tire of people constantly questioning my honesty and sincerity. That point may be fast approaching. It may be fun for some of you to make my motivation the issue, but it really shouldn't be.

Poor Rob, you don't like how the tables have turned?

Yet, you have no problem receiving a "salary" questioning our beloved Prophet's "honesty", "sincerity" and "motivation". In fact your website states this about Joseph Smith.

Joseph’s personal life consisted of deception and immorality My link

• Joseph’s deception and immorality related to marriage and family
• Joseph’s self-serving changes to his own alleged revelations
• Joseph’s hypocrisy about the Word of Wisdom
• Joseph’s slander of his closest associates
• Joseph’s plagiarism of the LDS temple ceremony from Masonry
• Joseph’s false claim to supernatural ability to translate repeatedly expose It also, and perhaps most importantly, provides the historical evidence whereby a religious leader’s actions and his claims
• Journal and diary accounts make it clear some were consummated sexually (ISL, pp. 12-15)
• He did this behind his wife’s back or hid the sexual aspect from her
• Joseph lied publicly about his teaching and practice of polygamy while practicing it privately.
• Joseph used religious coercion and manipulation to get women to consent to plural marriage
• Joseph went back and revised or added information to revelations he claimed were from God to bolster his prophetic standing and abilities
• Joseph claimed the Word of Wisdom was a revelation from God then repeatedly violated it.
• Joseph slandered the character of his closest associates when they exposed his immoral behavior
• Joseph lied about the origins of the Mormon Temple ceremony. He joined a Masonic order, learned their secret rituals and then incorporated these into a Mormon temple ceremony claiming his source was revelation from God.
• Joseph lied about his ability to translate ancient records, and was caught in the lie by people in a nearby community who created some fake etched metal plates, “discovered” them and took them to Joseph to translate, which he claimed to do.

Do you think Joseph Smith ever got "tired of it"? His martyrdom was a "relief" from the vile persecution that even continues today - on your own website nonetheless. Not going to feel sorry for you Rob.

Second, you may or may not know this, but I don't endorse the "Moroni test" for determining if the Book of Mormon is true. I'm all for praying about the Book of Mormon, but I cannot endorse the approach you are suggesting, at least not as Mormons usually understand it.

Of course you "don't" and "cannot "endorse it. For if an honest and sincere truth seeker followed "Moroni's test" they would receive an answer that the Book of Mormon was true.

[Rob Bowman]

ttribe,

Apparently, you missed the point of my reference to the resource.

People with perhaps more than an ounce of critical thinking skills will realize that just because it is possible for advocates of differing opinions to offer arguments in support of their "interpretations" does not mean one side doesn't have the better argument. They might also realize that in addition to those firmly established on one side or the other there are people who are in the middle trying to decide what to believe.

[sigh] Why do you even bother spending time on such an endeavor? People with even an ounce of critical thinking skills will be able to identify the fact that it takes just as much "interpretation" of the scriptures to adopt your position as it does ours. ETA: IMO, such a thing does nothing more than add to the confirmation bias of the readers who are on either side of the debate. Non-value added.

[ttribe]

ttribe,

Apparently, you missed the point of my reference to the resource.

People with perhaps more than an ounce of critical thinking skills will realize that just because it is possible for advocates of differing opinions to offer arguments in support of their "interpretations" does not mean one side doesn't have the better argument. They might also realize that in addition to those firmly established on one side or the other there are people who are in the middle trying to decide what to believe.

Whatever floats your boat. I've seen plenty of these arguments and rarely, if ever, seen: 1) someone REALLY "in the middle"; and 2) seen anyone convinced by such comparisons who wasn't already predisposed to their own conclusion.

[Walden]

If our "critics" stood behind truth and were not threatened and afraid then they would give a link to a free copy of the Book of Mormon with a sincere statement:

"We believe and adamantly reject the Book of Mormon as being the word of God for theses reasons..................., but we don't want you to take our word for it or anyone else's' words for that matter. We invite everyone to read the Book of Mormon themselves, ponder its message and pray to the source of all truth (God) if the Book of Mormon is true".

Replace the title of the BoM in your statement above with any "anti-mormon" literature title, and the exact same could be said of the LDS church and their constant admonishments to their members to avoid, at all costs, those things that are considered "anti-mormon"....which is essentially anything that goes against the church's teachings. If the LDS church really desired to present the whole "truth", then they would not shy away from the more unsavory nuggets of their past like they have done over the years and they would not admonish members to avoid those things which do not align with accepted LDS dogma.

Getting back to the original post, my motivation as a "critic" comes from my desire to understand the thought process of TBM believers. I come from a devout LDS family directly descended from Parley Pratt, I was raised in the church and believed in the general beliefs of the church for the first 22-23 years of my life. It is a part of who I am, and thus it naturally makes me curious.

I came to this board after spending a couple years on that "board that shall not be named"....you know, that "anti" board. After a couple years on that board, I got burned out by the general attitude there and the victim mentality. Don't get me wrong, I think that board serves a worthwhile purpose in allowing people who have recently left the church, or who are in the process of leaving the church, a place to vent and feel acceptance. However, after a couple years, I grew tired of it and I had gotten my rants out of my system.

When I came to this board, it was part of an honest attempt to understand how intelligent people believe what I considered, at that time, to be utter nonsense. And I am glad that I have come here, because I have learned a great deal about the church, about my LDS family and about myself. I have learned that there are some intelligent and logical explanations for those things I once considered "nonsense." I have learned that one can be rational and objective and a still be a believer in the LDS faith (which was a big step for me). I have a new respect for the faith and loyalty displayed by devout members. I'm glad that I found this board.

[mfbukowski]

First of all, I have to say that at some point I am going to tire of people constantly questioning my honesty and sincerity. That point may be fast approaching. It may be fun for some of you to make my motivation the issue, but it really shouldn't be.

Idle threats.

What are we supposed to say to that? "OH Please please don't leave us Dr. Bowman!"

The fact is, with your website the way it is, your motivations are indeed an issue.

[Walden]

Of course you "don't" and "cannot "endorse it. For if an honest and sincere truth seeker followed "Moroni's test" they would receive an answer that the Book of Mormon was true.

Are you seriously saying that "Moroni's test" is fool-proof? Is there absolutely no way that a person could honestly and sincerely pray to god about the Book of Mormon and receive a different answer than you have?

[Walden]

Of course you "don't" and "cannot "endorse it. For if an honest and sincere truth seeker followed "Moroni's test" they would receive an answer that the Book of Mormon was true.

Are you seriously saying that "Moroni's test" is fool-proof? Is there absolutely no way that a person could honestly and sincerely pray to god about the Book of Mormon and receive a different answer than you have?

[bookofmormontruth]

Replace the title of the BoM in your statement above with any "anti-mormon" literature title, and the exact same could be said of the LDS church and their constant admonishments to their members to avoid, at all costs, those things that are considered "anti-mormon"....which is essentially anything that goes against the church's teachings. If the LDS church really desired to present the whole "truth", then they would not shy away from the more unsavory nuggets of their past like they have done over the years and they would not admonish members to avoid those things which do not align with accepted LDS dogma.

Getting back to the original post, my motivation as a "critic" comes from my desire to understand the thought process of TBM believers. I come from a devout LDS family directly descended from Parley Pratt, I was raised in the church and believed in the general beliefs of the church for the first 22-23 years of my life. It is a part of who I am, and thus it naturally makes me curious.

I came to this board after spending a couple years on that "board that shall not be named"....you know, that "anti" board. After a couple years on that board, I got burned out by the general attitude there and the victim mentality. Don't get me wrong, I think that board serves a worthwhile purpose in allowing people who have recently left the church, or who are in the process of leaving the church, a place to vent and feel acceptance. However, after a couple years, I grew tired of it and I had gotten my rants out of my system.

When I came to this board, it was part of an honest attempt to understand how intelligent people believe what I considered, at that time, to be utter nonsense. And I am glad that I have come here, because I have learned a great deal about the church, about my LDS family and about myself. I have learned that there are some intelligent and logical explanations for those things I once considered "nonsense." I have learned that one can be rational and objective and a still be a believer in the LDS faith (which was a big step for me). I have a new respect for the faith and loyalty displayed by devout members. I'm glad that I found this board.

IMO I wouldn't define you as a "critic". A different category.

With that said, I respect and appreciate what you stated. In the least, we know where you stand and how you feel about the Lord's Church. That is more respectable and honest than those who hide behind illusions.

I don't know you from Adam, but I am glad you found this board. And when you come back to the fold, we will welcome you with open arms. I hope you know and feel that.

[LeSellers]

If I find that the DVD is dishonest, I will certainly contact the publishers of the DVD and express my concerns. Our website does not currently have articles criticizing other people's materials critical of Mormonism that we don't recommend, though I wouldn't have a problem with having some articles of that nature, within certain reasonable limits.

You may not have any obligation to prove your honesty, but if you wish me to see you as honest, and, given your previous recommendation of the dishonest DVD(s), it seems you'd want to go out of your way to demonstrate that honesty.

Your choice, to contact the publisher in the case you find the DVD disingenuous, is laudable.

If I find some articles on FAIR's website website that are dishonest, would it be reasonable for me to ask the Maxwell Institute to post articles on its site recommending that people avoid FAIR's propaganda?

Yes, it would. And I have no doubt that it would be acknowledged either by removing the offending material, or at least by a caveat stating its basis was in question. But this is not a very close parallel.

More to the point, would I be justified in saying that unless they comply with such a request, they will have failed to demonstrate their honesty?

I believe you would be. Since, as far as I can determine, there is no such material, however.

Is there any place on the FAIR site that is demonstrably untrue? One, perhaps, that pretends to tell us (or any other reader) what another religious society believes and does so incorrectly and repeatedly even after having been shown the errors?

If not, you do not have an argument. We should recall that there is no LDS ministry devoted to debunking others' beliefs, our missionary force notwithstanding. There is no exbaptistsforJesus.com sponsored by the Church or any Saint I know of. If you know of such a site, I'd be glad to investigate it.

Lehi

[Rob Bowman]

BOMT,

You wrote:

Poor Rob, you don't like how the tables have turned?

Yet, you have no problem receiving a "salary" questioning our beloved Prophet's "honesty", "sincerity" and "motivation". In fact your website states this about Joseph Smith.

You seem to have missed the entire point. I have no objection to you pointing out dishonesty where you can legitimately find it. I have no objection to you presenting clear evidence of base motives where you can find it. But throughout this thread you and a few others have insisted on placing the burden of proof on me to demonstrate my integrity. That's putting things backwards. The burden of proof is on you to show that I am an evil, conniving liar motivated by greed, if you wish to maintain such a characterization of me. If you had the proof, you would be presenting it, instead of demanding that I prove my integrity to your satisfaction.

The burden of proof is also on us to show, if this is what we wish to claim, that Joseph Smith was a deceiver. We cannot legitimately get away with arguing "You can't prove Joseph Smith was not a deceiver." The burden of proof is on us to show that he was. As it happens, we have a mountain of evidence to support that assessment. I know this drives you crazy because we are criticizing your "beloved Prophet," but the evidence is what counts. And you must know that we are not making this stuff up. Joseph did lie both privately and publicly regarding his practice of plural marriage. Even some LDS apologists admit as much, though they go on to rationalize why it was supposedly necessary for Joseph to practice such deception. It is demonstrable fact that he heavily edited earlier revelations to bolster his authority.

Your comparison of criticisms of me to criticisms of Joseph Smith is pretty funny, when you think about it. I don't make any big claims for myself. I don't claim to be a prophet of God. I don't go around telling married men that God has revealed to me that they are supposed to allow me to marry their wives. I haven't claimed that I alone, among all human beings on earth throughout all history, was privileged to see God the Father in his own body. I don't teach that everyone else's church is wrong and only my church is the one and only true and living church on the earth. If I made such claims, I would naturally invite the most extreme scrutiny. Wouldn't I? Come on now, drop your defensive guard for a second and address this point candidly.

[mfbukowski]

Are you seriously saying that "Moroni's test" is fool-proof? Is there absolutely no way that a person could honestly and sincerely pray to god about the Book of Mormon and receive a different answer than you have?

Here is the issue: He does not even endorse praying about the BIBLE to receive an answer of its truth, and always avoids questions about how on one hand Evangelicals can believe in personal revelation (which they do) and why he does not believe in praying about either the BOM or the Bible.

Major inconsistency.

There is no reason to believe the Bible is the word of God unless you hear it from God.

[bookofmormontruth]

Are you seriously saying that "Moroni's test" is fool-proof? Is there absolutely no way that a person could honestly and sincerely pray to god about the Book of Mormon and receive a different answer than you have?

That is exactly what I am saying.

It is absolutely impossible for an honest truth seeker who sincerely wants to know to not receive the promised answer. That is the beauty of Moroni's promise and I know it without any doubts whatsoever.

[cdowis]

And FAIR Wiki could post:

"We believe and adamantly endorse the Book of Mormon as being the word of God for theses reasons..................., but we don't want you to take our word for it or anyone else's' words for that matter. We invite everyone to read the Book of Mormon themselves, ponder its message and pray to the source of all truth (God) if the Book of Mormon is true and also investigate the claims against the book by reviewing the materials found at the Institute for Religious Research (link)".

If the "believers" stood behind truth and were not threatened and afraid then they would give a link to a IRR with the sincere statement, above.

Gervin,

We do even better.

Please check out this link. You can take any publication regarding Mormonism, primarily regarding the BOM, and do a review. You need to follow professional guidelines, but if you find an apologetic book, article, DVD that you can give the weaknesses of logic, scholarship, factual errors, etc, just submit it for publication.

The article cannot be an attack on whether the BOM, for example, is true, but you can show the flaws in a specific apologetic work.

There are many of the classic apologetic books, from Nibley, Christensen, to authors here in this forum where you can demonstrate their flaws. Let's see what you got, and I'm serious. I'd love to see someone take on Nibley, et al. in a serious review.

[Eldwynn]

That is exactly what I am saying.

It is absolutely impossible for an honest truth seeker who sincerely wants to know to not receive the promised answer. That is the beauty of Moroni's promise and I know it without any doubts whatsoever.

On the face of it, this sounds awesome, and you sound incredibly genuine! However, if anyone were to point out that they in fact did read the BOM, did pray, and did not receive an answer, you would simply come up with a reason (you aren't perfect, you weren't sincere etc.) why it didn't work in this specific way. Furthermore, there are people who claim to have received an answer, but later left the church (you would probably say they didn't receive a true answer, unless they had not left yet, in which case you would nod your head with their testimony).

Even further, there are psychologically good reasons why people should get a feeling "confirming the truth" for plenty of psychological reasons.

I read the Book of Mormon twice. I graduated from Seminary. I was temple worthy at the time I left. I brought a lot of people to the church probably (my mom may exaggerate this a bit). I left the church shortly before serving a mission (which I was excited to serve) because after a lot of prayer, I realized I was not getting any convincing answers.

[Jeff K.]

If you don't want convincing answers, you will never find them.

[Rob Bowman]

Mr. Bukowski,

You wrote:

Here is the issue: He does not even endorse praying about the BIBLE to receive an answer of its truth, and always avoids questions about how on one hand Evangelicals can believe in personal revelation (which they do) and why he does not believe in praying about either the BOM or the Bible.

Major inconsistency.

There is no reason to believe the Bible is the word of God unless you hear it from God.

CFR on three points: (1) That I "always avoid questions" on this subject (two examples of me doing this will suffice), (2) that I (being an evangelical) have said that I "believe in personal revelation," and (3) that I do "not believe in praying about either the BOM or the Bible." On this third point, you are simply contradicting what I have explicitly stated in this very thread.

[Ceeboo]

It is absolutely impossible for an honest truth seeker who sincerely wants to know to not receive the promised answer.

Yep!

As for those very very few people on the planet (perhaps 3 or 4) who have not received the promised answer, they are clearly lying, completely insincere, and have no desire to seek this blatant truth.

That is the beauty of Moroni's promise and I know it without any doubts whatsoever.

Beautiful indeed.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[LeSellers]

I read the Book of Mormon twice. I graduated from Seminary. I was temple worthy at the time I left. I brought a lot of people to the church probably (my mom may exaggerate this a bit). I left the church shortly before serving a mission (which I was excited to serve) because after a lot of prayer, I realized I was not getting any convincing answers.

If you don't want convincing answers, you will never find them.

The real issue here is "what's a convincing answer?"

Notice Eldwynn didn't say he didn't get an answer, but that he didn't get a convincing answer. I believe the single biggest thing involved in one-time Saints who claim they didn't receive the "burning in the bosom" is that they are expecting a "road to Damascus experience. That's just not the way the "Still, Small Voice" usually works. It's "still" and "small", like Elijah's account. The Lord is not in the strong wind, not in the earthquake, not in the fire.

11 And [the Lord] said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake: 12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

It may be that the person was worthy, it may even be (although I am convinced it's rare) that he was "sincere" (i.e., has "real intent"), but, like the I Jews who were expecting a regal Messiah and rejected the Humble One Who actually came to them, they refuse, or maybe simply cannot, recognize the answers they get, demanding an incontrovertible sign.

Moroni's promise requires several elements of us: prayer, faith, real intent. Most people can meet the first two requirements, it's the third where they fail. Real intent is saying, with King Lamoni's father: "I will give away all my sins", i.e., I will conform to the commandments, to know it's true.

The bar is raised higher the more we know. A person newly exposed to the Gospel will feel a slight impulse from the Spirit much more strongly than someone who's been in the Church all his life. But the Spirit does not distinguish between them: it's the same impulse for both. The "life-long member" may be more in tune, or may be jaded by the constant exposure to this kind of sensation.

Lehi

[Vance]

Mr. Bukowski,

You wrote:

CFR on three points: (1) That I "always avoid questions" on this subject (two examples of me doing this will suffice),

Well, aside from MFB asking that question, I asked it in this very thread. Once here,

Where I asked,

So, HOW do you know that what you believe is true?

HOW can I know that what you believe is true?

WHY do you avoid this topic?

Which you avoided. So, I asked AGAIN here,

I still would like to know, HOW you know what you believe is true, and HOW can I know for myself.

To which you responded with this here,

Vance, when you start showing some courtesy and respect for me (a guest in this forum, invited by one of your own), I will be happy to discuss that or any other question with you. But not before.

Making sure to leave yourself an out. Which I, from past experience, had confidence that you take advantage of. And you did, with this,

Vance,

I will now try to go back to ignoring your posts.

Found here,

So, then, we don't even need to count the experience of MFB asking the question and you avoiding it, (but I could dig it up if you would like) because we have two examples in this thread alone.

Ok, now, start making excuses about why these two cases don't count.

[bookofmormontruth]

You seem to have missed the entire point. I have no objection to you pointing out dishonesty where you can legitimately find it. I have no objection to you presenting clear evidence of base motives where you can find it. But throughout this thread you and a few others have insisted on placing the burden of proof on me to demonstrate my integrity. That's putting things backwards. The burden of proof is on you to show that I am an evil, conniving liar motivated by greed, if you wish to maintain such a characterization of me. If you had the proof, you would be presenting it, instead of demanding that I prove my integrity to your satisfaction.

Endless spin.

You claim to follow the examples of Paul Owen and Carl Mosser in regards to honest criticism, yet you and your website "recommend" known anti-Mormon material. Just doesn't fly, at all. End of story.

we have a mountain of evidence to support that assessment.

Yes, I noticed that.

Here is one example of the "mountain of evidence" that is found on your website.

"These data suggest that sexual attraction was an important part of the motivation for Smith's polygamy. In fact, the command to multiply and replenish the earth was part of the polygamy theology, so non-sexual marriage was generally not in the polygamous program, as Smith taught it (Compton, pp. 11-12)."

How again is that "evidence"?

I know embarrassing. Hence why I hope you leave everything up on the website. I won't bring up more examples, I don't want to embarrass you anymore.

I know this drives you crazy because we are criticizing your "beloved Prophet," but the evidence is what counts

I wouldn't flatter yourself.

We as faithful members are intimately familiar with the incessant and obsessive criticism. In fact, we have had 180 + years of it. I enjoy it and it adds to my testimony too so thank you.

Besides, why would you want to drive us a crazy? I would think you would want to do what you stated earlier "I am motivated to do what I do by the two motivating values of truth and love". I guess we should add the "third" motivating factor, "to drive us crazy".

And you must know that we are not making this stuff up.

From the above example of the "mountain of evidence" it definitely looks like you are.

Your comparison of criticisms of me to criticisms of Joseph Smith is pretty funny, when you think about it.

I am glad it amuses you.

I don't make any big claims for myself. I don't claim to be a prophet of God. I don't go around telling married men that God has revealed to me that they are supposed to allow me to marry their wives. I haven't claimed that I alone, among all human beings on earth throughout all history, was privileged to see God the Father in his own body. I don't teach that everyone else's church is wrong and only my church is the one and only true and living church on the earth. If I made such claims, I would naturally invite the most extreme scrutiny. Wouldn't I? Come on now, drop your defensive guard for a second and address this point candidly.

"Extreme scrutiny" as being murdered by a cowardly mob? Yes, that sounds very "natural".

And Rob, if you ever decide to claim you are a prophet of God. Trust me, you will not hear any dishonest criticism from us or any type of criticism. Too bad you and your organization can't do the same.

[zerinus]

On the face of it, this sounds awesome, and you sound incredibly genuine! However, if anyone were to point out that they in fact did read the BOM, did pray, and did not receive an answer, you would simply come up with a reason (you aren't perfect, you weren't sincere etc.) why it didn't work in this specific way. Furthermore, there are people who claim to have received an answer, but later left the church (you would probably say they didn't receive a true answer, unless they had not left yet, in which case you would nod your head with their testimony).

Even further, there are psychologically good reasons why people should get a feeling "confirming the truth" for plenty of psychological reasons.

I read the Book of Mormon twice. I graduated from Seminary. I was temple worthy at the time I left. I brought a lot of people to the church probably (my mom may exaggerate this a bit). I left the church shortly before serving a mission (which I was excited to serve) because after a lot of prayer, I realized I was not getting any convincing answers.

This may sound clever to you; but to those of us who have received that answer, and know that the Book of Mormon is true, things look different, as you might expect. I cannot “unknow” what I already know—your scepticism notwithstanding. It is a bit like a blind man mocking a sighted man for claiming to see things that he himself is not able to see. I cannot make you see what I can see; neither does your skepticism alter the reality of that vision for me.