BYU, Racism, and Perspective

[WalkerW]

Review the following articles:

Joanna Brooks, "The Dark Side of BYU's Honor Code," Religion Dispatches (March 15, 2011).

Brooks, "BYU Honor Code Used to Harass Black Athletes," RD (April 14, 2011).

Luke O'Brien, Darron Smith, "The Truth About Race, Religion, and the Honor Code at BYU," Deadspin (April 13, 2011).

Then, perhaps

Kent P. Jackson, "Review of The Lord's University: Freedom and Authority at BYU," BYU Studies 38:4 (1999).

I'd really just like some feedback, especially from those who are employed at BYU.

I don't know enough about these particular subjects to either agree or disagree. I can't help, but feel (in the case of Brooks, at least) that the interpretations are a bit overblown. It always seems like her writings display a personal crusade against the politically conservative environment of Mormonism (which may or may not be warranted).

Like I said, though, I'm not informed enough on these particular subjects. Any feedback is welcomed.

[Messenger]

My BYU Story (one of them)

It’s true, while serving on my mission I dreamed of my next step; getting a college education at BYU. When the time came, I packed up, and headed for Provo Utah. When I arrived I was welcomed, but it soon became evident that this convert was a ‘problem student’.

I was there about a year when I was working for the school during EFY as a Resident Assistant. I also was taking some summer classes. One of them, a tennis class, would be helpful to finishing up some required Physical Education classes. It turns out that the work as a Resident Assistant was much more demanding than I anticipated, and I ended up missing some of the few tennis classes. I decided to test out of the class for a pass or no pass grade. When making arrangements for this, I was sent to the physical education building, which just so happened to be the first week of fall and the building was packed with students and long lines at all of the offices. After waiting several hours, I decided to figure out something else rather than wait in these lines going nowhere. I turned around and my backpack nudged two stacking plastic paper holders on a vacant desk next to me and they fell on the floor. I probably should have picked them up, but I didn’t. Apparently the Dean saw this and conjectured that I intentionally knocked them off. I did not. So, when I left the office and went into the hallway packed with students, he apparently followed me. I assume he was frustrated because the hallway was packed with hundreds of students and apparently he was trying to catch up to me. I heard someone yell at me, and it was the Dean at the top of the stairs pointing to me, at the bottom of the stairs. So, I decided to wait just outside for him. He absolutely lost his temper, pointing his finger at my chest, and pushing me, yelling at me the whole time. I didn’t know what he was talking about, and I was so alarmed at this huge man, I really didn’t know what to do. Everyone was looking at him, I was embarrassed, and beguiled at what this meant. In my ADHD moment, I walked away towards the other building where I could get my classes changed. I went into the other office, I started to tell them what I needed, and the Dean charged in and said, “Nobody help him, he just ransacked the office of the Dean!!!!” Everyone’s jaws dropped. Wow, here I have worked all my mission to come to BYU and now I am some sort of hated person by the Dean.

I started to walk out of the room not knowing what to do. He blocked the exit with his body and said I am holding you here. I’m not a lawyer, but to be honest, that’s kidnapping and quite wrong. So, I slipped my body between the doorway and him and he tried to put a sleeper hold on me or choke me – I never found out which. I turned around and told him I was calling the cops.

I went back to my dorm room in Helaman Halls, and called the campus police. They came by and took my story. Apparently nobody reported anything yet. The next day the officer told me that the Dean was going to have me removed from college if I didn’t drop the case. So I dropped it, then the Dean sent me to Standards anyways, something he promised not to do.

I appeared in front of Standards and told them the whole thing. I left BYU after that. I wasn’t asked to leave, but I was floored at the abuse a church college could have on a young convert student. And with no family members to protest, I was out on a limb – so I left BYU for good. 20 years later, I can tell you we have a long way to go when it comes to civility at church schools. I’ve always wanted to sue the living snot out of BYU for the physical abuse they gave me as a young convert student. The only reason I haven’t is because I know the church is true. Why they hire idiots to teach and abuse our kids is beyond me. Jeffrey Holland was the president of BYU at the time, and I don’t fault him personally, but wow, what a mess this caused in my life.

So, I don’t put a lot of stock into anything that says Honor and Standards when it comes to BYU – Provo. Their standards seem to only work one way.

But I did enjoy the religion classes there. And, just before I left, I got to view the BYU riots; A night where thousands of students protested and cause damage to the campus. It was a dramatic story that only made the national news once at 4am that early morning and was quietly, quickly swept under the rug. But that’s another story.

[Fly Fisherman]

Yesterday on the radio in Salt Lake City, former BYU football player Bryan Kehl talked a bit about this. I only heard a minute or two of the interview, so I don't know how well it suits what you are looking for.

Go to the following website, and the interview is there:

http://www.1280thezone.com/

Listen to the interview "HANS AND OC WITH ST. LOUIS RAM LINEBACKER BRYAN KEHL"

[thesometimesaint]

WalkerW:

I am not an employee of BYU. I don't even live in Utah. But I did go to BYU many moons ago. Everyone knows what the Honor Code demands of BYU students BEFORE they ever go there. For me, just coming out of the military, it was no big adjustment for me.

[semlogo]

Unfortunately BYU as an institution doesn't seem to live up to gospel standards (the institution, not the students). I hope someday the church will step in and clean it up.

[Calm]

And, just before I left, I got to view the BYU riots; A night where thousands of students protested and cause damage to the campus.

So I did a online search for "byu riot" and the only thing that came up was one guy saying that in the 80s there was a huge pillow fight at Helaman Halls with over a hundred students and that CNN came out and reported it as an out of control riot. Is this what you were talking about?

Ah, found a more detailed story by typing in "byu pillow fight" here: http://buckleyplanet...w_fight_fi.html

interesting because we were living there at the time in married student housing up on the hill and I don't remember it at all, will have to ask my husband if he does.

add-on: Ah, I just read a comment that says it actually happened in 87, we were gone by then. Wonder what the real story actually is.

[Messenger]

So I did a online search for "byu riot" and the only thing that came up was one guy saying that in the 80s there was a huge pillow fight at Helaman Halls with over a hundred students and that CNN came out and reported it as an out of control riot. Is this what you were talking about?

Yes. Exactly.

I've kept a public lid on this for years. So here goes.

I was a resident assistant in Taylor Hall (Helaman Halls) at the time. I was stationed in the office. Two of my guys were walking by with pillows and I stopped them. I said, "Where are you going with those pillows". They had that smirk like they were up to no good. I told them to make sure and return with pillows, even if they had to buy them. They nodded and they were off. An hour later there were well over 1000 students in the Helaman courtyard having pillow fights. The Angry students were letting off steam when the academic standards were raised for remaining at BYU. Many, were leaving for good, they couldn’t stay. Then the number of students protesting doubled, it was wall to wall bodies and people were pushing and shoving and there were some fights as well. President Holland come down and tried to get people to leave. Nobody listened, he’s lucky someone didn’t punch him. More showed up and there was not enough room for them. We were asked to chain all the doors shut. I did not. They weren’t angry at their living quarters, they were angry at BYU. They soon left and gathered to about 3000 students in a mob form going from one place to another and tromping on the tops of cars (yes that’s right). They moved up to DT, where the students there dropped things on them from above, so they stomped on more cars below. I drove my car to find them between DT and President's house. I very nearly got mobbed myself. I realized that the students leading the mob of thousands were from Taylor Hall - They were my guys! The mob ran after my car but I escaped and went back to Taylor Hall. The mob then ruined the grounds of President Holland’s Campus house. Then they moved back to Helaman Halls. The entire area was wall to wall students. The ground was white with pillow feathers. More and more off campus students gathered. With my car securely parked off campus, I walked back to Taylor Hall were a fellow RA and I watched the event from the roof of Taylor Hall until morning. The police encircled Helaman Halls and arrested anyone leaving campus. More cop cars rolled in and some police were in riot gear. It was complete overkill. CNN did show up and was filming from just below Taylor Hall. There were people as far as the eye could see in mob form. Then, a rumor got around that they were going to go across the street to Hart’s to get a Coke. They planned to move in one quick move to go. They made it about halfway across the street and found that the markets and buildings that they were going to were chained closed and the police with bull horns told everyone to back off. So they moved back. Eventually, everyone went home. But there were cars that were smashed, landscaping damage, and there were a number of fights and quite a few arrests. The only riot that I have ever seen.

[frankenstein]

We were asked to chain all the doors shut. I did not.

where the doors to prevent the rioters from leaving? Or where you asked to chain the doors so people could not enter or exit a building?

[bluebell]

Yes. Exactly.

I've kept a public lid on this for years. So here goes.

I was a resident assistant in Taylor Hall (Helaman Halls) at the time. I was stationed in the office. Two of my guys were walking by with pillows and I stopped them. I said, "Where are you going with those pillows". They had that smirk like they were up to no good. I told them to make sure and return with pillows, even if they had to buy them. They nodded and they were off. An hour later there were well over 1000 students in the Helaman courtyard having pillow fights. The Angry students were letting off steam when the academic standards were raised for remaining at BYU. Many, were leaving for good, they couldn’t stay. Then the number of students protesting doubled, it was wall to wall bodies and people were pushing and shoving and there were some fights as well. President Holland come down and tried to get people to leave. Nobody listened, he’s lucky someone didn’t punch him. More showed up and there was not enough room for them. We were asked to chain all the doors shut. I did not. They weren’t angry at their living quarters, they were angry at BYU. They soon left and gathered to about 3000 students in a mob form going from one place to another and tromping on the tops of cars (yes that’s right). They moved up to DT, where the students there dropped things on them from above, so they stomped on more cars below. I drove my car to find them between DT and President's house. I very nearly got mobbed myself. I realized that the students leading the mob of thousands were from Taylor Hall - They were my guys! The mob ran after my car but I escaped and went back to Taylor Hall. The mob then ruined the grounds of President Holland’s Campus house. Then they moved back to Helaman Halls. The entire area was wall to wall students. The ground was white with pillow feathers. More and more off campus students gathered. With my car securely parked off campus, I walked back to Taylor Hall were a fellow RA and I watched the event from the roof of Taylor Hall until morning. The police encircled Helaman Halls and arrested anyone leaving campus. More cop cars rolled in and some police were in riot gear. It was complete overkill. CNN did show up and was filming from just below Taylor Hall. There were people as far as the eye could see in mob form. Then, a rumor got around that they were going to go across the street to Hart’s to get a Coke. They planned to move in one quick move to go. They made it about halfway across the street and found that the markets and buildings that they were going to were chained closed and the police with bull horns told everyone to back off. So they moved back. Eventually, everyone went home. But there were cars that were smashed, landscaping damage, and there were a number of fights and quite a few arrests. The only riot that I have ever seen.

I'm sorry but that's hilarious.

Only mormons would riot with pillows.

[Avatar4321]

Id like to read some of these when I have more time. I should probably book mark this page.

[Messenger]

where the doors to prevent the rioters from leaving? Or where you asked to chain the doors so people could not enter or exit a building?

At Helaman halls it was to keep people from leaving. They did it several times at the cafateria as well. This was wrong in my eyes. But for Harts, it was to keep people from coming into the store. Not that it would have stopped them if they wanted to come into the stoe they simply would have broken the glass.

[Messenger]

I'm sorry but that's hilarious.

Only mormons would riot with pillows.

It wasnt started as a pillow riot, it started as a group pillow fight. Then, it got much more serious. Laugh it you will, be thankfull you didnt have a car next to DT. It would have been smashed.

[Jeff K.]

I was in Chile during the pleblicites, and I was in Ayacucho during the time of the Sendero Luminoso. Seems like an overwrought overimaginative tempest in a teapot at BYU. And it all comes down to some very simple factors, if you don't like BYU, leave. If you feel the rules are unfair, go somewhere else. There are many fine institutions throughout this great nation that offer a variety of levels that deal with personal responsibilitity. You simply do not have to deal with BYU if you feel it is unfair towards you as an individual.

Given the size of the school, the size of the student body. I am surprised it is run as wel as it is. Part of that lies within the rules that are maintained, even when they are imperfectly maintained.

Frankly it just seems like a great deal of carping, BYU is an easy target for it since it tries to maintain the highest standards, and everyone wants to cry hubris when it isn't perfect. Really, a pillow fight. Try having your church blown up, your car burned, and people throwing bricks and cobblestones at each other, along with the unreported assaults and rapes.

Sheesh, a pillow fight. (Shakes his head and wonders if anyone knows what a riot is really like).

[cinepro]

Everyone knows what the Honor Code demands of BYU students BEFORE they ever go there. For me, just coming out of the military, it was no big adjustment for me.

I think that might be part of the problem. I've heard it said in more than one discussion that non-LDS athletes (and maybe non-LDS students in general) aren't properly prepared for the honor code. As with so many other things in life, it gets signed without being carefully studied, and assumptions are made about its focus and scope.

It would be like an LDS attending a university in India and signing an "Honor Code" that they think focuses on cheating and other academic concerns and then finding themselves expelled for eating an off-campus hamburger. Yes, it's always simple to say "they should have read it", but hopefully that won't be the end of the thinking on the subject.

[Messenger]

And it all comes down to some very simple factors, if you don't like BYU, leave. If you feel the rules are unfair, go somewhere else.

I respectfully, fully disagree. This is what has caused the problem to grow at BYU for so long. Far too many people ignore what is right or wrong and the kind of distruction that occured that night was quietly swept under the rug, and people were never told the story, or never allowed to question how it was handled. Tithing money is sacred, and should be used with good purposes in mind. Do we use that money only for a high intellect and football players? Or should we have used it to educate many other members who want a church education. I found mine at another university. And, thank goodness there are other shoices like BYU Idaho and home studies now. But, there is a lot of things that should have been taken care of in those past years that were not. It proves to me people can choose, and often do, themselves over right and wrong, no matter who it affects. It would have been a nice debate to have. But we as students were never allowed to have it. So much for 'higher' education.

[SilverKnight]

I wasn’t asked to leave, but I was floored at the abuse a church college could have on a young convert student. And with no family members to protest, I was out on a limb – so I left BYU for good. 20 years later, I can tell you we have a long way to go when it comes to civility at church schools. I’ve always wanted to sue the living snot out of BYU for the physical abuse they gave me as a young convert student. The only reason I haven’t is because I know the church is true. Why they hire idiots to teach and abuse our kids is beyond me. Jeffrey Holland was the president of BYU at the time, and I don’t fault him personally, but wow, what a mess this caused in my life.

I think you are being a tad melodramatic.

One jerk dean blows his stack and it's indicative some widespread pattern of abuse, and lack of civility at church schools?

You don't think professors at public universities are capable of getting mad, mistreating students then stonewalling them?

[Jeff K.]

I respectfully, fully disagree. This is what has caused the problem to grow at BYU for so long. Far too many people ignore what is right or wrong and the kind of distruction that occured that night was quietly swept under the rug, and people were never told the story, or never allowed to question how it was handled. Tithing money is sacred, and should be used with good purposes in mind. Do we use that money only for a high intellect and football players? Or should we have used it to educate many other members who want a church education. I found mine at another university. And, thank goodness there are other shoices like BYU Idaho and home studies now. But, there is a lot of things that should have been taken care of in those past years that were not. It proves to me people can choose, and often do, themselves over right and wrong, no matter who it affects. It would have been a nice debate to have. But we as students were never allowed to have it. So much for 'higher' education.

Drama is not Dharma. Like I said, sometimes the rules are ahdered to imperfectly, what you call "sweep under the rug" is somewhat dramatic for, get over your own sense of importance regarding the events and causes. If you don't believe the tithing money is being used in a sacred way, much like BYU, then don't pay it. I have never felt the need to judge the use of tithing money, since it isn't my money anyway. If by responsibility I recieve some for use, I will use it in the best manner possible. But I don't see a need to judge the effectiveness of money that isn't mine to begin with. The tithing question to me is a red herring without merit.

[Jeff K.]

I think that might be part of the problem. I've heard it said in more than one discussion that non-LDS athletes (and maybe non-LDS students in general) aren't properly prepared for the honor code. As with so many other things in life, it gets signed without being carefully studied, and assumptions are made about its focus and scope.

The honor code is carefully spelled out, especially to non members. But I have had people ask if LDS were serious about the code. As one UT Vol football player told me. "Are you serious. They actually expect you to do that stuff!". Apparently other universities have a similar code in writing, but it isn't really enforced. Some people may not realize our church is serious about what it wants from the students and faculty.

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

I didn't grow up in the Church, but my parents taught me that I'd better read and understand any contract before I signed it. I had a pretty good idea for what I was signing up for when I joined the US Air Force, regardless of what a recruiter said.

[Jeff K.]

Personal responsibility is such a rarity in these times....

[Messenger]

Drama is not Dharma. Like I said, sometimes the rules are ahdered to imperfectly, what you call "sweep under the rug" is somewhat dramatic for, get over your own sense of importance regarding the events and causes. If you don't believe the tithing money is being used in a sacred way, much like BYU, then don't pay it. I have never felt the need to judge the use of tithing money, since it isn't my money anyway. If by responsibility I recieve some for use, I will use it in the best manner possible. But I don't see a need to judge the effectiveness of money that isn't mine to begin with. The tithing question to me is a red herring without merit.

Jeff,

Thats the difference between you and me. And I am ok with that. I think questioning is a good thing and debating is how we learn. By the way, do you think participating in a forum and debating ideas is a good thing, like this MORMON forum? LOL You crack me up.

Mark

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K.:

I think it is more common than we sometimes fear. The vast majority of BYU students have no problems abiding with the Honor Code.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff,

Thats the difference between you and me. And I am ok with that. I think questioning is a good thing and debating is how we learn. By the way, do you think participating in a forum and debating ideas is a good thing, like this MORMON forum? LOL You crack me up.

Mark

I have never considered overwrought drama to be on the equal footing of historical points of view or differences in doctrinal opinion. Note that we only lightly, very lightly, touch upon which batman was the best, or whether or not the new young Kirk is as good as the older more bombastic Kirk. Mole hills of drama do not create academy awards in perspective fiction. Your story would go over better at the Sundance Film Festival.

All I did was place it in perspective. One's life must be a privleged one if such a small thing has so scarred it.

[Messenger]

I have never considered overwrought drama to be on the equal footing of historical points of view or differences in doctrinal opinion. Note that we only lightly, very lightly, touch upon which batman was the best, or whether or not the new young Kirk is as good as the older more bombastic Kirk. Mole hills of drama do not create academy awards in perspective fiction. Your story would go over better at the Sundance Film Festival.

All I did was place it in perspective. One's life must be a privleged one if such a small thing has so scarred it.

Actually, I've always believed that when someone lashes out on a forum in a personal fashion that he was making his own drama, or simply being offended. Which is it for you?

[Jeff K.]

Jeff,

Thats the difference between you and me. And I am ok with that. I think questioning is a good thing and debating is how we learn. By the way, do you think participating in a forum and debating ideas is a good thing, like this MORMON forum? LOL You crack me up.

Mark

Actually, I've always believed that when someone lashes out on a forum in a personal fashion that he was making his own drama, or simply being offended. Which is it for you?

Secretly you are a flagelent aren't you?