LDS and punishment

[LDSToronto]

Perhaps you missed my point, which was that parents understand why it is important to require their children to suffer the consequences for breaking their word.

Bluebell, you said: I'm talking about being able to understand, as most parents do, the importance of requiring someone to suffer consequences for breaking their word.

This statement shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the consequences. Consequences should come without the intervening hand of an external agent. When they do, they are artificial.

Your opinion, though valid to you, is not sufficent evidence to make this statement as if it is fact. BYU, and many others, obvious disagree, which has as much weight as your disagreement with them does, making both opinions equally valid in the very least.

Isn't this true of any debate around here?

H.

[Walden]

Fair enough. Still don't believe the punishment fits the crime. I'd love to see the stats on students expelled for premarital sex. I wonder if they exist and are accessible.

Then you obviously have no idea about the LDS view of pre-marital sexual relations. In the LDS religion, this is one of the most serious moral "crimes" that one can commit....are you a member of the church?

I was raised in a ward attended by the son of one of the previous LDS prophets. He had a family of nine children and was of course a very devout member. One of his daughters went to BYU and got pregnant her first year there. This granddaughter of the prophet of the church was not allowed to attend BYU after her pregnancy became known. If there are no exceptions for the granddaughter of the prophet, then I can imagine that everyone else is treated equally as well.

Again, I am no fan of the LDS church, but trying to find fault with BYU on this is really reaching, IMO. The kid knew the rules, the kid knew the conseqences of breaking these rules, the kid knew that as a star athlete he was under a microscope, and you argue that it is the schools fault for following through with the consequences that they made this kid fully aware of from the start?

[LDSToronto]

Then you obviously have no idea about the LDS view of pre-marital sexual relations. In the LDS religion, this is one of the most serious moral "crimes" that one can commit....are you a member of the church?

This is true, Walden, but I'd like to point out that BYU is *not* the CoJCoLDS. As a 19 year old, Brandon Davis is most likely not temple-endowed, and may not even hold the Melchizedek Priesthood. Either way, his ecclesiastical consequences will be less severe than those imposed by BYU.

H.

[AKS]

I don't believe Brandon Davies is mormon.

[Jason]

You can't argue that because God gave us sexual desires, that that means that He wants us to have premarital sex. That is not a valid argument.

It's like saying that because God gave us the desire to eat, and made the human race dependant upon us doing so, it proves He wants us all to be overweight.

Desires that are not kept within bounds become vices and harm us and others.

Or like saying "God wants us to eat, and humans are edible. Therefore God condones cannibalism."

[Jason]

I'd love to see the stats on students expelled for premarital sex. I wonder if they exist and are accessible.

I don't think that is any of your business.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Look, BYU can enforce an honour code if it pleases, but it should be clear that enforcement of rules through punitive action is an artificial consequence.

H.

No it is not an "artificial consequence". Any way see my posts to AKS. They address every one of your concearns.

I find it so baffling that intelegent people think that BYU did something wrong here.

For AKS,

BYU does not equal the LDS church. They are independant entities.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is true, Walden, but I'd like to point out that BYU is *not* the CoJCoLDS. As a 19 year old, Brandon Davis is most likely not temple-endowed, and may not even hold the Melchizedek Priesthood. Either way, his ecclesiastical consequences will be less severe than those imposed by BYU.

H.

Which of course is totally irrelevant isn't it? Non of that has any bearing on teh BYU honor code nor the action BYU took on Mr Davies.

[BCSpace]

The guy made a mistake and confessed on his own. His punishment, if forthcoming, should be from God and not a bunch of old white men.

God has delegated judgement to the saints. 1 Cor 6:2

Btw, what is it about being old and white that would disqualifiy one from making judgements or decisions? Do you discriminate against the elderly and those who are white?

[SilverKnight]

I would argue that this is not the case.

I would argue that it is the case.

The Honor Code is far more restrictive than even the LDS Temple Recommend criteria, and the punishments for breaking it more severe.

I was punished by the Honor Code Office while at BYU for lifting weights with excessive facial hair.

By the time I was a senior I had developed a particular loathing for the Honor Code and its gestapo tactics, but I knew from the beginning BYU had an Honor Code and understood clearly what it entailed.

Fair enough. Still don't believe the punishment fits the crime.

Nor do I. But such consequences are known to everyone, and the Honor Code, morality and forbiddance of alcohol is a large reason why LDS students choose to attend BYU.

Brandon Davies is a great basketball player and could be playing hoops, and having lots of sex with his girlfriend, at a different college if he wanted to.

I'd love to see the stats on students expelled for premarital sex. I wonder if they exist and are accessible.

I attended BYU and have never heard of expulsion as a punishment for premarital sex.

I had several different roommates who engaged in various sexual activities, confessed, and went through some repentance period overseen by the Bishop.

I don't know if the Honor Code was even told what the 'offense' was, and none of them were expelled.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Why does BYU feel the need to punish him?

Well if you break the rules there is going to be a consequence, if you didn't want to face the consequence then don't break the rules. Violation of the Law of Chasity is a very very serious offense in the Church, and at BYU, he agreed to conduct himself in a certain manner and failed to do so. I don't see what everyone is getting upset about really, he knew the rules, he broke the rules, he received the consequences of his actions.

And BTW, we're talking about 19 and 20 year olds, many of them on their own for the first time. People are having sex, I guarantee it.

Age isn't an excuse for his behavior, immaturity helps explain why he choose to make the decision he did, but it doesn't excuse what he did nor mean that he shouldn't have to receive the consequences of his actions.

If BYU made exceptions because this gentleman was a basketball player, then the university would be hypocrites, they would have no honor or integrity. They did the right thing and enforced the rules without regard to a persons status or fame, if only the justice system could learn this lesson we would have a fair court system as well.

I applaud BYU's decision to make stick to the rules and not make exceptions, exceptions to the rules is the reason why the law is ignored by so many.

[bluebell]

This statement shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the consequences. Consequences should come without the intervening hand of an external agent. When they do, they are artificial.

Who says they should come without the intervening hand of an external agent?

Who says that artificial consequences are invalid?

If you are going to speak in terms of fact then you need to provide references.

[SilverKnight]

Who says they should come without the intervening hand of an external agent?

Who says that artificial consequences are invalid?

What LDStoronto means is outside of the bubble of BYU, there are no negative consequences for premarital sex.

In fact, for most all college students, premarital sex is a very enjoyable and beneficial recreational activity.

For other behaviors, like drug use and cheating, there are direct harmful consequences.

But nothing bad happens when you have sex with your girlfriend.

So BYU has artificially created something bad that happens to you when you engage in this behavior.

I see the point he is trying to make, but it is irrelevant: every student that enrolls at BYU signs a formal agreement to not have sex outside of marriage, or face the consequences.

[bluebell]

What LDStoronto means is outside of the bubble of BYU, there are no negative consequences for premarital sex.

In fact, for most all college students, premarital sex is a very enjoyable and beneficial recreational activity.

For other behaviors, like drug use and cheating, there are direct harmful consequences.

But nothing bad happens when you have sex with your girlfriend.

So BYU has artificially created something bad that happens to you when you engage in this behavior.

I see the point he is trying to make, but it is irrelevant: every student that enrolls at BYU signs a formal agreement to not have sex outside of marriage, or face the consequences.

LDStoronto said this after i said "Perhaps you missed my point, which was that parents understand why it is important to require their children to suffer the consequences for breaking their word."

Parents artificially create consequences all the time, but LDStoronto has claimed that doing so shows a misunderstanding of the concept of consequences. This is where my issue with him lies.

[Jeff K.]

What LDStoronto means is outside of the bubble of BYU, there are no negative consequences for premarital sex.

In fact, for most all college students, premarital sex is a very enjoyable and beneficial recreational activity.

For other behaviors, like drug use and cheating, there are direct harmful consequences.

But nothing bad happens when you have sex with your girlfriend.

So BYU has artificially created something bad that happens to you when you engage in this behavior.

I see the point he is trying to make, but it is irrelevant: every student that enrolls at BYU signs a formal agreement to not have sex outside of marriage, or face the consequences.

I wonder at the costs for rape, venereal disease, pregnancy, charges of attempted rape, that are part and parcel with the increased promiscuity that comes from premarital sex. Do multiple sex partners increase dangers of such things like cervical cancer, AIDS, Herpes?

[SilverKnight]

I wonder at the costs for rape, venereal disease, pregnancy, charges of attempted rape, that are part and parcel with the increased promiscuity that comes from premarital sex. Do multiple sex partners increase dangers of such things like cervical cancer, AIDS, Herpes?

Every day when I go to the gym to exercise I risk torn muscles, herniated discs, asthma attacks and sudden heart attacks.

But I've found with a little information, preparation and precaution, the likelihood of any of those things happening is impossibly small - plus I feel great when I am done working out, and am healthier and happier because of it, despite the risks.

[Jeff K.]

Every day when I go to the gym to exercise I risk torn muscles, herniated discs, asthma attacks and sudden heart attacks.

But I've found with a little information, preparation and precaution, the likelihood of any of those things happening is impossibly small - plus I feel great when I am done working out, and am healthier and happier because of it, despite the risks.

The orginal statement was that premarital sex had no cost. I simply pointed out that the cost is quite significant.

Your position is that going to the gym risks hurting, well, hurting you, but the exercise is one in which you develop a healthier person overall. Having premarital sex, especially among Mormons certainly doesn't help culturally. And pregnancy and herbes and even AIDS I wouild say is much more dangerous than herniated disks. And you risk hurting only yourself.

Also no one will accuse you of giving them a herniated disk because of a night of revelry and misunderstanding.

I think I would not be quick to place the law of chasity or its loss, or something so important to Mormons culturally and really important to many non MOrmons as well, with the same level of disregard one might an exercise program. An error in one is much more difficult to deal with emotionally as well as otherwise than exercising too much.

It depends how important intimacy is to the individual of course. To me, it is a very important expression of love. Exercise holds no such position with me, even though I tend to exercise more.

[LDSToronto]

Parents artificially create consequences all the time, but LDStoronto has claimed that doing so shows a misunderstanding of the concept of consequences. This is where my issue with him lies.

I'm not talking about parents or parenting; I assumed you used parenting as an analogue, I chose to use the spirit of your analogy without referring to parenting.

By the way, I do feel that parents who create artificial consequences misunderstand the concept of consequences.

H.

[CV75]

Why does BYU feel the need to punish him?

He may have been honorable in confessing his breaking the honor code, or having rescinded his agreement to keep the code, or not understanding the code when he agreed to it, and also accepting giving up the priveleges associated with it.

Honor as a virtue has to do with one's trustworthiness in complying with or conforming to some standard according to their word to do so. Those who fail to keep their word have to go through the paces of relinquishing the privileges previously gained by their prior/presumed honor. They have to earn back the privilege of having honor, which includes the respect of others. This starts with respecting themselves by keeping their word in the next set of promises they make.

[AKS]

I wonder at the costs for rape, venereal disease, pregnancy, charges of attempted rape, that are part and parcel with the increased promiscuity that comes from premarital sex. Do multiple sex partners increase dangers of such things like cervical cancer, AIDS, Herpes?

Does increased promiscuity necessarily come with premarital sex? And if you feel guilty enough to admit sex with your girlfriend and therefore let down your team and a nation of byu basketball fans I will go out on a limb an assert he was anything but promiscuous. And I will say that un-promiscuous premarital sex is orders of magnitude better than getting married at 19 when you're not ready.

[Jeff K.]

Does increased promiscuity necessarily come with premarital sex? And if you feel guilty enough to admit sex with your girlfriend and therefore let down your team and a nation of byu basketball fans I will go out on a limb an assert he was anything but promiscuous. And I will say that un-promiscuous premarital sex is orders of magnitude better than getting married at 19 when you're not ready.

Yes. Or are you telling me that when more people have premarital sex, increased promiscuity simply won't occur? I won't go into earlier development and menstrual cycles.

Sigh, no one said the player was promiscuous. The relative trend of premarital sex leads to a number of problems such as AIDS and Herpes which you seem to overlook. But feel free to argue disengenuously. It only validates my position.

[Jeff K.]

And I will say that un-promiscuous premarital sex is orders of magnitude better than getting married at 19 when you're not ready.

Chuckle.

You can argue for premarital sex all you want. I am sure it will keep the venereal disease researchers busy in coming generations. That the accusations of rape will have no impact.

Some of us have a moral standing and believe such acts to be too important to lightly toss aside. You apparently feel differently. Wish I could respect that, but I simply don't see it as a way of showing respect to the opposite sex.

The rest of the animal kingdom may now continue rutting away.

[AKS]

Yes. Or are you telling me that when more people have premarital sex, increased promiscuity simply won't occur?

It will probably come as a surprise to JeffK to find that premarital sex has been occurring at byu and every other locale where young men and women have been left to their own effects since Time immemorial. Or you can bury your head in the sand.

I wonder if aids, herpes, and rape are an issue at byu?

chuckle, chuckle...

[Jeff K.]

Another fallacy raises its ugly head.

Will premarital sex increase if there is no rule against it? Drinking? Drugs?

And of course AKS will ask us to ignore reality and live with him in the rabbit hole.

[Jeff K.]

A reflection of those who observed BYU.

Brigham Young University is in Utah, but this week, it seems like it's in a different universe altogether.

In a week when it suspended one of its star players for behavior that is common, expected and often encouraged on most every other campuses in America, Sports Illustrated and CBS News showed just how willing major athletic programs are to bend values and live uncomfortably close to criminal activity in the pursuit of victory.

In a jarring report on a six-month investigation into the criminal records of players on some of the top football teams in the country, they found that 7 percent of players on teams in last year's preseason top 25 had been "charged or cited" for a crime. The University of Pittsburgh, the worst (for now) in a collection of bad, had 22 players on its preseason roster with police records.

Schools have adopted a posture of willful ignorance when it comes to players' criminal histories. The report finds that most teams don't conduct criminal background searches (Oklahoma and TCU were two exceptions) and often rely solely on high school coaches - far from objective sources - for information on players they recruit.

More troubling is the fact that criminal incidents are often overlooked and patched over with minor suspensions as schools shamelessly chase fleeting on-field glory at the expense of their stated purposes as institutions designed to enrich young people intellectually and personally.

Sure, BYU has exceptionally - even arguably unrealistically - high standards. Debating morality, and especially religion, is fraught with peril and beside the point here, however. The important point is that BYU stands alone as a school in major college athletics willing to make its stated priorities its actual ones.

Unlike its peer institutions, BYU puts athletics in their rightful place as a secondary concern to academics and personal betterment. You don't have to be Mormon or even religious to admire that institutional maturity - maturity that allows the school to forego the financial gains and public accolades that come with athletic success in its pursuit of a larger, more virtuous goal.

Looking at it that way, the gulf between BYU and a school like Pittsburgh sadly seems unbridgeable.

Real Clear Sports

BYU dismissed Brandon Davies from the men's basketball team, even though the sophomore center leads the team in rebounding and is a double-digit scorer, because he violated the school's honor code. The Salt Lake City Tribune reported that Davies admitted to having premarital sex.

Say what you will about BYU's honor code, which requires students to live a chaste and virtuous life and abstain from alcohol, tobacco, caffeine and illegal drugs. Those virtues seem antiquated, almost quaint in this day and age. Plenty of athletes at other schools do far worse and continue to play their sports.

But Brandon Davies knew the rules when he chose to play for BYU. He grew up in Provo, where the school is located, for goodness sake. He knew that BYU is America's largest religious university, that it is operated by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and that it has the most religious student body of any U.S. college campus, according to a survey by the Princeton Review. In fact, Davies is Mormon himself.

Washington Post

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