AKS Posted March 4, 2011 Author Posted March 4, 2011 ..for an offense that is probably occurring multiple times by BYU students as I write this post.And I might add, an offense that has always and will continue to occur by young men and women in this environment. It's a desire that's rooted in our very being and ensures our existence. If you believe in God, then he wants it that way.
Jason Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 What I got from your post, AKS, is that BYU should overlook moral transgressions and violation of promises by a prominent basketball player because basketball is at stake and other students there commit moral transgression and violate promises too.You don't see anything wrong with this attitude?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 And I might add, an offense that has always and will continue to occur by young men and women in this environment. It's a desire that's rooted in our very being and ensures our existence. If you believe in God, then he wants it that way.I am sure that there are instances at BYU were this offence occours. The picture you are tyring to paint is that there are mass orgies going on right now at BYU and no one seems to care. Can you back up this assertion? I never once had sex until I was married. If I can do I think a lot of people can.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 What I got from your post, AKS, is that BYU should overlook moral transgressions and violation of promises by a prominent basketball player because basketball is at stake and other students there commit moral transgression and violate promises too.You don't see anything wrong with this attitude?Mmmmmmmmmm, correct!And thus you see the special pleading by AKS for a proctected class at BYU.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Yes, you are winning and complaning becuase teh star basketball player is being pusnished for his breaking the honor code. Jimmer might take exception to that.
bluebell Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 The difference, dear bluebell, is in the severity of the punishment. You have effectively ruined the most magical of seasons for a whole team, possible ruined or severely damaged a young mans career for an offense that is probably occurring multiple times by BYU students as I write this post.So, your point is that winning basketball games and career are more important than personal integrity and morality. Therefore, all consequences that BYU deals out should focus on those facts.Again, you don't have children, do you? You sound like you are in college or around that age-is that correct?
bluebell Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 And I might add, an offense that has always and will continue to occur by young men and women in this environment. It's a desire that's rooted in our very being and ensures our existence. If you believe in God, then he wants it that way.You can't argue that because God gave us sexual desires, that that means that He wants us to have premarital sex. That is not a valid argument.It's like saying that because God gave us the desire to eat, and made the human race dependant upon us doing so, it proves He wants us all to be overweight.Desires that are not kept within bounds become vices and harm us and others.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Jimmer might take exception to that. Lol, good catch.
Walden Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 So, your point is that winning basketball games and career are more important than personal integrity and morality. Therefore, all consequences that BYU deals out should focus on those facts.Again, you don't have children, do you? You sound like you are in college or around that age-is that correct?I don't know that having children has anything to do with this....I have two boys of my own, and I think that the BYU honor code is a somewhat ridiculous expectation for 18-21 year old kids. And this doesn't take into consideration the argument for repentance, the atonement, etc.That being said, no one is forced to attend BYU. If you don't want to sign the honor code or aren't sure that you can live up to the honor code, then pick another school.
bluebell Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I don't know that having children has anything to do with this....I have two boys of my own, and I think that the BYU honor code is a somewhat ridiculous expectation for 18-21 year old kids. And this doesn't take into consideration the argument for repentance, the atonement, etc.That being said, no one is forced to attend BYU. If you don't want to sign the honor code or aren't sure that you can live up to the honor code, then pick another school.I'm not talking about agreeing with the BYU honor code. I'm talking about being able to understand, as most parents do, the importance of requiring someone to suffer consequences for breaking their word.If he's in college or around that age, then it makes sense that he would not be able to see past his own ideas to the bigger picture. If he's a parent, or older with a fully matured brain, then his inability to see the importance of consequences makes less sense. I'm trying to figure out where he is coming from and meet him where he is. He sounds like the typical kid right now-but i don't know if that is an honest assessment so I'm asking.
Jason Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I never once had sex until I was married. If I can do [it]I think a lot of people can.I didn't either, and I got married rather late for a Mormon.Neither did any of my siblings (all married now).Neither did any of my wife's siblings.
LDSToronto Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I'm not talking about agreeing with the BYU honor code. I'm talking about being able to understand, as most parents do, the importance of requiring someone to suffer consequences for breaking their word.No one is required to suffer for breaking one's word. If breaking one's word causes one to suffer, that is one thing. For instance, if I break my word to get out of a contract, then I will face legal ramifications; if I break my word to friends, I will suffer social consequences, and so on. If I break my word, and benefit from it, it is possible that I don't suffer. Inflicting an artificial consequence is not the answer.Regardless of how one feels about Davies vs. the honor code, Davies will suffer social consequences, ecclesiastical consequences, and natural consequences. Putting his basketball career in jeopardy is an artificial consequence inflicted upon him by BYU that does not follow logically from the action.H.
Sleeper Cell Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Everyone's heard the Brandon Davies story by now. I realize that he knew the expectations/requirements when agreeing to play basketball for BYU. If his relationship with his girlfriend was private it seems like this transgression should be between him and God. Why does BYU feel the need to punish him? Perhaps because
thesometimesaint Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 LDSToronto:Should he be exempt from the rules just because he has a potential basketball career? Violating the terms of the contract with the military can do more than just delay a promising career in basketball. It can land you in Fort Worth Prison.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I feel for his girlfriend. I am sure a ton of people know who she is- with him being on the national stage, instead of it being private, between him, her, and the Bishop, now her friends and family know she was doing the naughty hokey-pokey.
rpn Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 My guess is that if it had REMAINED solely between him and his girlfriend and God, then there would have been no consequence. Obviously someone didn't keep the secret.
Jeff K. Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 No one is required to suffer for breaking one's word. If breaking one's word causes one to suffer, that is one thing. For instance, if I break my word to get out of a contract, then I will face legal ramifications; if I break my word to friends, I will suffer social consequences, and so on. If I break my word, and benefit from it, it is possible that I don't suffer. Inflicting an artificial consequence is not the answer.Regardless of how one feels about Davies vs. the honor code, Davies will suffer social consequences, ecclesiastical consequences, and natural consequences. Putting his basketball career in jeopardy is an artificial consequence inflicted upon him by BYU that does not follow logically from the action.H.BYU inflicted nothing upon the individual. Consider that at any time the individual could have withdrawn his scholarship and attend anyone of several other universities. The individual could have done so at any time. When the individual found himself violating the code he agreed to adhere to, he could have removed himself voluntarily to another school. In fact the entire process was a series of decision dependent upon the choices of the individual, choices that could have been made from before the moment of the violation until well after the violation occurred. If anything the infliction, as you call it, was self imposed.
LDSToronto Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 LDSToronto:Should he be exempt from the rules just because he has a potential basketball career? Violating the terms of the contract with the military can do more than just delay a promising career in basketball. It can land you in Fort Worth Prison.Deserting the military has a legal consequence. In this case, a dismissal from BYU is an artificial consequence. What does having pre-marital sex have to do with playing basketball? Is BYU being unnecessarily punitive? For instance, would you insist that your son withdraw from law school in his final year if he was discovered to have been having sex with his girlfriend?Look, BYU can enforce an honour code if it pleases, but it should be clear that enforcement of rules through punitive action is an artificial consequence.H.
LDSToronto Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 BYU inflicted nothing upon the individual. Really? So Brandon Davis is free to play basketball for BYU? He wasn't dismissed from the team?H.
bluebell Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Really? So Brandon Davis is free to play basketball for BYU? He wasn't dismissed from the team?H.I think Jeff's point is the issue of who is responsible for Davis's dismissal from the team. BYU isn't responsible for that-Davis is. IN that way, BYU didn't inflict anything upon Davis-he did it to himself.It's like those people who try to sue McDonald's because their food made them fat. Yes, mcdonald's food could have been the direct cause of them gaining weight (like BYU could be said to be the direct cause of Davis's dismissal) but it wasn't McDonald's fault, it was the customer's (like it's not BYU's fault, but Davis's).
SilverKnight Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I would add that BYU ? The LDS ChurchThe "Punishment' this young man is receiving is due to his breaking a formal code of ethics, not because he sinned.An LDS athlete at say UCLA might have sex with his girlfriend and the issue remains squarely between him and his bishop.The Honor Code is behind this kerfuffle, and every student who attends BYU does so in part because the Honor Code exists.
bluebell Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 No one is required to suffer for breaking one's word.Perhaps you missed my point, which was that parents understand why it is important to require their children to suffer the consequences for breaking their word.Restating that statment as "everyone is required to suffer for breaking their word" is not an accurate restatment.If breaking one's word causes one to suffer, that is one thing. For instance, if I break my word to get out of a contract, then I will face legal ramifications; if I break my word to friends, I will suffer social consequences, and so on. If I break my word, and benefit from it, it is possible that I don't suffer. Inflicting an artificial consequence is not the answer.It is if the consquences is meant to teach morals and integrity. Regardless of how one feels about Davies vs. the honor code, Davies will suffer social consequences, ecclesiastical consequences, and natural consequences. Putting his basketball career in jeopardy is an artificial consequence inflicted upon him by BYU that does not follow logically from the action.Your opinion, though valid to you, is not sufficent evidence to make this statement as if it is fact. BYU, and many others, obvious disagree, which has as much weight as your disagreement with them does, making both opinions equally valid in the very least.
AKS Posted March 4, 2011 Author Posted March 4, 2011 I would add that BYU ? The LDS ChurchI would argue that this is not the case.The "Punishment' this young man is receiving is due to his breaking a formal code of ethics, not because he sinned.Fair enough. Still don't believe the punishment fits the crime. I'd love to see the stats on students expelled for premarital sex. I wonder if they exist and are accessible.
Jeff K. Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Really? So Brandon Davis is free to play basketball for BYU? He wasn't dismissed from the team?H.You should not dismiss Davis as a slave or animal with limited ability to reason and understand consequence. It speaks ill of you.
Jeff K. Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I am sure some believe a consequence free society is what a righteous society is based on. But we know this not to be true.
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