Progression between Kingdoms

[Lamanite]

I don't have any issue, the Scriptures are the one with the issue, all I am doing is professing the eternal truths of the Restored Gospel.

One must hold to the Iron Rod if they wish to stay on the path to eternal life.

LOL- Puh-leeeese!

I have provided plenty of scripture and quotes. Are our General Authorities opinions not to be "well considered?" You've dismissed them outright with no real substantive argument.

There can be a scriptural case made for both positions. I don't deny this. Why you would I have no idea.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[LDS Guy 1986]

LOL- Puh-leeeese!

I have provided plenty of scripture and quotes. Are our General Authorities opinions not to be "well considered?" You've dismissed them outright with no real substantive argument.

There can be a scriptural case made for both positions. I don't deny this. Why you would I have no idea.

Big UP!

Lamanite

I disagree, there is no contextual scriptural evidence to support your position. One can argue just about anything if they take scripture out of context. The plain and precious truths of the Gospel though teach that this is our probationary period to prepare for eternity. That after mortality we can not make up for our failures to obey in this life, to the best of our abilities.

Also I have yet to see a contextual opinion of a GA say that one can procrastinate there repentance and make up for it by kingdom hopping after the resurrection.

[Deborah]

The problem with using the Prodigal Son as an example is that the Lord says to the faithful son "Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine." He does not indicate this with the returning son, only that he rejoices that he finally found his way home.

In D&C 132 we read this about David "therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord."

We can interpret anyway we want but I think our focus should be on doing all that we can in this life and not in thinking "Oh, well if I miss the boat in this life, I can make up for it in eternity." I think there is danger in that.

[Calm]

I look at progression from more of a psychological POV. Given that our experiences that God has given us up until the time of the Judgment (and I consider this us making a judgment along side God) during our preexistence, mortality and postmortal life is for the purpose imo to determine what our core desires are (I'd say "desires of our hearts" but those desires were in place before we had hearts imo, when we were intelligences) that when we are given the fulfillment of those desires, whatever they may be, at Judgment time there seems little possibility that we would then change our mind about it as that would have to involved a change of actual being, turning us into something we are not. IOW, judgment doesn't occur until we are certain of our choices, we have no reservation or regrets buried deep inside us about what might have been.

If my theory is correct, than anything that happens postJudgment would merely reinforce that choice as the reinforcement from the environment of our choices (since we've chosen an environment that will fulfill these choices the most effectively), thus we will become more 'telestial', 'terrestial' or 'celestial' or even 'outer darkened'.

I believe it is individuals themselves, not God, that places limits on change in individuals in all our stages of life (in the sense there is always some avenue of change available save for the most dysfunctional individuals and those individuals will be given whatever they need of time to learn and choose in the spirit world postdeath). Thus by my theory, God can be fully merciful allowing everyone the ultimate range of choices eternally, it is just that we simply ignore those choices that would allow us to progress in ways we chose not to progress at the time of Judgment (as we have been choosing to ignore them all through our existence, imo).

[Deborah]

I believe it is individuals themselves, not God, that places limits on change in individuals in all our stages of life (in the sense there is always some avenue of change available save for the most dysfunctional individuals and those individuals will be given whatever they need of time to learn and choose in the spirit world postdeath). Thus by my theory, God can be fully merciful allowing everyone the ultimate range of choices eternally, it is just that we simply ignore those choices that would allow us to progress in ways we chose not to progress at the time of Judgment (as we have been choosing to ignore them all through our existence, imo).

This is a great point. It seems that God gives us every opportunity both here and post mortally and it is up to us to take the opportunities given. However,I don't think there will even be that much change in the Spirit World to the direction we are headed here.

[LDS Guy 1986]

This is a great point. It seems that God gives us every opportunity both here and post mortally and it is up to us to take the opportunities given. However,I don't think there will even be that much change in the Spirit World to the direction we are headed here.

I agree and I think that Section 137 supports that, it says "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;" This had they been permitted to tarry implies that there personalities will not change much if at all in the Spirit World. The Modern Prophets also talk of this a lot about how passing through the veil will not change who and what you are.

The BoM talks about this too: "And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still." (Moroni 9:14)

[Calm]

This is a great point. It seems that God gives us every opportunity both here and post mortally and it is up to us to take the opportunities given. However,I don't think there will even be that much change in the Spirit World to the direction we are headed here.

In one sense, I agree with you. One's 'heart' or disposition to do good probably won't change that much since we have been making those types of choices for all eternity past where we've had the opportunity to do so.

In another sense, I would strongly disagree (but I suspect this isn't disagreeing with what you meant) and that is for those who had limiations or grew up in environments that led them to understand evil as good or did not have sufficient 'opposition' for an 'informed' choice. Basically talking here about those without law, whether due to ignorance, mental or emotional disorders, or a culture that teaches them that evil behaviour is 'strong' behaviour and necessary to survive, etc. Say for an obvious example those children growing up during the time of Noah or the days of Moroni where if they were exposed to the gospel at all, it was likely overwhelmed by the messages they received from parents and everyone else save the few faithful who they would be taught were insane, delusional, power hungry, stupid, etc. These types of people might have chosen a completely different set of opportunities if they had been given the chance...and thankfully they will be in the Spirit World.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Say for an obvious example those children growing up during the time of Noah or the days of Moroni where if they were exposed to the gospel at all, it was likely overwhelmed by the messages they received from parents and everyone else save the few faithful who they would be taught were insane, delusional, power hungry, stupid, etc. These types of people might have chosen a completely different set of opportunities if they had been given the chance...and thankfully they will be in the Spirit World.

I agree and I feel this is those are them who fall under Section 137, those who didn't receive the Fullness of the Gospel in their life. Section 67 ( as well as Deborah's comments, I believe) only applies to those who did have access to and the opportunity to receive the Fullness of the Gospel (the restored Gospel in this dispensation) and rejected it there entire life.

[Calm]

I should mention that I do believe there is one condition where we can change our eternal being....at least all of it, one part of it must have always been hungering for that change so that when the opportunity comes, it asks to be change and with it one's whole being can be 'reborn'. Obviously this is through accepting Christ as our Redeemer and allowing his Spirit to work within us, accomplishing changes we could not accomplish ourselves and even parts of us probably don't want, lol.

You could say I am a determinist until Christ is invited to join in the party, then something fundamental changes, exactly how I don't know.

[Deborah]

In another sense, I would strongly disagree (but I suspect this isn't disagreeing with what you meant) and that is for those who had limiations or grew up in environments that led them to understand evil as good or did not have sufficient 'opposition' for an 'informed' choice.

No disagreement here. Just think of King Lamoni and his people if they had been killed before their conversion.

[daz2]

The prodical son returned to after learning his lesson, if you do not return and repent in this life there is no second chance.

I prefer to leave that to God. I personally believe that repentance is possible in the afterlife. If repentance is not possible in the next life, not even those who disbelieve in progression from kingdom to kingdom can be saved. Because all of us are in the process of repenting throughout our lives and no one dies in a state of perfection--all still have sins to repent of. Or are people saying repentance is possible for some sins after death but not for others?

[BCSpace]

16For behold, I, God, have asuffered these things for all, that they might not bsuffer if they would crepent; 17But if they would not repent they must asuffer even as I;

(In that section I read the words "Endless" and "Eternal" as types of suffering not lengths of time.)

And then, according to D&C 76, they inherit the Telestial glory. But after that, there are no reasons given to support the notion that one can progress to a higher kingdom.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I prefer to leave that to God. I personally believe that repentance is possible in the afterlife. If repentance is not possible in the next life, not even those who disbelieve in progression from kingdom to kingdom can be saved. Because all of us are in the process of repenting throughout our lives and no one dies in a state of perfection--all still have sins to repent of. Or are people saying repentance is possible for some sins after death but not for others?

Christ judges by the heart, we do not need to have a perfect repentance record, Christ judges by if we were doing our very best to repent and live righteously. We can never be perfectly ready for the spirit world if we could we would have no need for a savior. Christ cannot help someone achieve Celestial Glory though if they deny his Restored Gospel, if you reject Christ (or his restored gospel) he will reject you for celestial glory.

[livy111us]

No unclean thing can enter into the presence of God,

Correct. However, when you die unclean, you do not keep your second estate and have procrastinated the day of your repentance. Alma 34:33

I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

You have yet to address any of the scriptures that show that progression between kingdoms cannot be possible, btw. I have yet to find a valid argument from proponents of this theory. As mentioned before, their argument is based on GA statements and conjecture, and must ignore actual doctrine (the scriptures) to continue in the belief of this theory.

always funny to hear the "righteous" lament the fact that some may take the liberty of saying they can eat, drink, and be merry; and resent the fact that they are getting away with something. To be sure, the wages of sin are death and despair. We get away with nothing when we act in open rebellion to those things we know are true. So don't despair, the sinful reap what they sow.

I find it funny that you keep assuming that I am upset at this because I think it is "unfair" for sinners to achieve Celestial glory while I am doing everything I can while in this mortal probation and they are not (even though I already told you that is not the case). You can't brush my arguments aside that easy. I see it as a direct contradiction of scriptures and the plan of salvation (as well as give some people a license to sin). That is why I disagree with it.

But why on earth would you reject the sincerely repentant?

I am not rejecting anyone, just quoting scripture.

[livy111us]

This was brought to my attention by a friend that I think is relevant to the discussion. In answer to the original quotes posted by Lamanite.

SECRETARY to the First Presidency Letter 1952/65

"The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view . . . . others of the brethren have taken the opposite view."

But THE SCRIPTURES are the doctrinal standard each General Authority is bound by - and the scriptures are very definite in what they say with regard to the matter. Any General Authority who circumvents THE SCRIPTURES on this issue is wrong.

Brigham Young (second hand statement in Wilford Woodruff Journal, 5 Aug 1855)

"None would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods"

This is not an accurate doctrine since it contradicts D&C 131:1-4. See the Encyclopedia of Mormonism article in "Degrees of Glory" which clearly states that there will be angels as well as gods living in the celestial kingdom.

Joseph F. Smith

"Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for.

"may" DOES NOT = revelation from the Lord. This is nothing but a personal opinion.

J. Reuben Clark

"It is my belief . . . . may" DOES NOT = revelation from the Lord. This is nothing but personall opinion.

James E. Talmage

"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired"

This personal opinion DOES NOT = revelation from the Lord.

Lorenzo Snow

"I believe" DOES NOT = revelation from the Lord.

B. H. Roberts

"I can concieve of no reason [personal opinion] . . . . Whether or not [speculation] . . . . may [personal opinion] . . . . is not revealed in the revelations of God [a true statement, at last] . . . . conjecture [another true statement] . . . . But if it be granted [pure speculation] . . . . may [personal opinion] . . . . may [where's the doctrine?]

Boyd K. Packer

This statement is being used out of context.

Personal writings (which carry the standard disclaimer that they do NOT represent the views of the Church - including Gospel Doctrine) DO NOT = revelation from the Lord.

Notice the attempted equation between the ordained mission of the Savior and the sporadic, unordained work of 'saviors on Mt. Zion.'

[MDesigns]

To be stuck in a lower kingdom forever and ever would be a horrible punishment and reminds me of the Protestant belief in going to hell forever and ever. The light Joseph Smith brought forth about such things are found in many places, such as:

D&C 19:6-7 - We learn how eternal dmanation is written in scripture to work upon the hearts of men, but it is only eternal because it is given by an eternal being -not because there is no end of the punishment.

DHC 6:311 - "...AS THE LORD LIVETH, if it had a beginning, it will have an end..." He went on to say that if a punishment has a beginning, it will have an end.

If we have a beginning to our habitation of any of the kingdoms, then "as god lives" there will be an end.

As we mature in the gospel we no longer need to have scary things work on our hearts to make us do right, we do right because of our love for God.

Even D&C 29:29-30 teaches something that could have to do with the question about eternal progression. It reads: "And now behold, I say unto you, never at any time have I declared from mine own mouth that they (the wicked) should return, for where I am they cannot come, for they have no power. BUT REMEMBER THAT ALL MY JUDGEMENTS ARE NOT GIVEN UNTO MEN..." . Here He is saying that he has not stated the wicked will not someday learn their lessons, and woe unto him who would condemn a man to a lower kingdom for eternity, making a judgement on something where "My judgements are not given unto men."

[Lareliw]

So do LDS believe there is no hell? I have heard of "Spirit Prison" but I am not sure I really understand it. In the Bible it is quite descriptive, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[MDesigns]

Lamanite asks great questions!

So there is some Eternal law that prevents conversion after the resurrection? What natural law would prevent someone from repenting and converting and thus entering the presence of the Lord? At what point would you not receive a wayward son or daughter if they desired to change and live a Celestial law/life? I know I would receive him or her as soon as they are ready. And I think God will exceed my own inadequate parental feelings of forgiveness and bless each of His children as much as they are willing to receive. Even a Celestial inheritance.

Besides, don't we receive Celestial blessings when we begin to live Celestial lives?"

Me: As longs as inhabitants of the telestial kingdom live the telestial law they will dwell in the telestial kingdom and in this state they cannot join God and Christ in the Celestial (D&C 76:112) But IMHO, as soon as one begins living higher laws, he/she can move to a higher kingdom. (Isn't this world part of the telestial kingdom? I certainly have hope that I will progress from here to a higher kingdom!)

So whose to say that if a person repents and is converted 3 trillion years from now and begins to live Celestial laws; why wouldn't he be blessed with a Celestial inheritance? Why would you limit the scope of an Infinite and Eternal Atonement? I think it stretches forth through time and throughout all eternity.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[MDesigns]

Lamanite asks great questions!

I totally messed up my last post - sorry to insert my comments in yours, Lamanite!

[TAO]

So do LDS believe there is no hell? I have heard of "Spirit Prison" but I am not sure I really understand it. In the Bible it is quite descriptive, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

No, there's hell. It's just not a permanent place - after all, it would be kinda unjust to have infinite agony for a finite sin, no? Thus, hell, in and of itself, has an end... once you have paid for all you have not repented of.

[Rob Osborn]

Yes, but Heavenly Father is also a God of justice, if you fail to obey the requirements of the plan he cannot give you the glory. To obtain the highest glory one must be ready for that glory, God wishes all of us to attain Celestial Glory and prepared a way for us to achieve it IF we follow his plan. This plan requires us to accept the fullness of the Restored Gospel in this life, if we have access to it, or in the next life if we do not have access to it. This what is stated in D&C 67 and 138, I have yet to see any new revelations to change this.

No I do not, Lucifer sought to exalt every individual this plan was rejected by Heavenly Father since it removed our agency. Our Plan of Salvation does not guarantee exaltation, it gives each of us the chance to receive Celestial Glory and Exaltation to Godhood but if we reject this plan, by rejecting the restored Gospel and/or Jesus Christ then we cannot ever receive Celestial Glory.

The temple represents our eternal progression not progression from one glory to the next, the Gospel teaches us that we our eternal reward at the Day of Judgement is just that, eternal.

First we should back up to basic salvation. The Book of Mormon teaches us about the gate by which we should enter. That gate is repentance and baptism. This then places us ont he path leading to eternal life. This gate- repentance and baptism is an "essential" requirement to be saved eternally from an eternal hell. Every soul who wants to be saved from the result of their sins needs to enter in by the way of the gate- repentance and baptism. The fundamental part that seems to be misleading in this thread is that some here think one can just procrastinate forever and in the end have the same reward as those who have been more faithful and obedient. But what we need to understand here is that some will just be further along the path than others. Eventually though, that path leads back to the same God, the same happiness, the same blessings.

Like is said in the scriptures- wickedness is not happiness. Some believe that procrastinating and living in sin is more fun and thus go on to say in essence- why should they have all the fun and then in the end receive the same reward as the laborer who toiled? God never says it like this. God speaks about finding happiness and joy as the reward. Those laborers who have been working may not have realized it but they have been enjoying the reward for a lot longer than the procrastinators. Thus, they are further along the path leading to that eternal life.

As was mentioned by another poster, no one is eligible on their own at death to receive celestial exaltation. There is nobody that has reached perfection as needed at the time of death to merit automatic celestial glory. Our perfection continues after death. It continues into and during the millennium. Part of that continuation is repentance and continued learning of the gospel and it's principles.

It's really all about finding the path, finding tha gate by which one enters and then progressing from there on the path leading to eternal life. There is only one path- one salvation- one true reward in the end at the end of that path. This is what Christ referrs to in his parable- he is referring to getting people on the path which leads all to the same reward- immortality and eternal life. Some are mistaken in the false belief that one can enter the path sooner than another and that eternally their reward will or should always be more than someone else entering the same path at a later time. Christ is trying to teach us here that the path all leads to the same reward. What we fail often times to realize is that true happiness and joy only comes in finding the path and entering by the gate and then remain on that path. The life of sin are the mists of darkness that lure men from the path or from finding it in the first place. That mist of darkness though is not happiness. Christ came into the world to heal the sick, not the whole. He came into the world to save the lost sheep- to help them return to the path no matter when that happens- in this life or the next.

The obvious advantage of getting on the path sooner rather than later is that it places you in the position to receive the reward sooner rather than later even though it is still the same reward. Does that make sense? Think of it as a giant family reunion, some get to the reunion sooner than others and get to enjoy the happiness quicker than those procrastinating and getting lost in dead ends.

[Monster]

To say progression is not possible is to limit the power of God and the atonement. If you believe the atonement was universal it would cover every aspect of every situation possible then logically it would allow for progression for eternity.

[Lamanite]

To say progression is not possible is to limit the power of God and the atonement. If you believe the atonement was universal it would cover every aspect of every situation possible then logically it would allow for progression for eternity.

Well said

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Lamanite]

...

More than a few good points. Thanks for the comments.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[mercyngrace]

I also think it is telling that in scripture, it has only been advocated by satan in the pre-mortal council, and the antichrist Nehor who falsely taught that