Progression between Kingdoms

[mercyngrace]

I cannot find any myself.

No doubt.

Repentance after death:

D&C 76:37 only sons of perdition experience second death

D&C 76:38 only sons of perdition remain unredeemed

D&C 76:39

For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

D&C 76:44

Wherefore, he saves all except them[sons of prdition]

[Lamanite]

Yes, but rejecting the Prophets is not rejecting the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Section 67 deals with those who rejected Christ in this life. Preach my Gospel (The LDS missionary handbook) says the following on the Kingdoms of Glory:

"During our mortal lives we make choices regarding good and evil. God rewards us according to our works and desires. Because God rewards everyone according to deeds done in the body, there are different kingdoms of glory to which we may be assigned after Judgement. Those who have repented of their sins and received the ordinances of the gospel and kept the associated covenants will be cleansed by the Atonement of Christ. They will receive exaltation in the highest kingdom, also know as the celestial kingdom. They will live in God's presence, become like Him, and relieve a fullness of joy. The will love together for eternity with those of there family who qualify. In the scriptures this kingdom is compared to the glory or brightness of the sun. People who do not accept the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ but live honorable lives will receive a place in the terrestrial kingdom. This kingdom is compared to the glory of the moon. Those who continued in there sins and did not repent in this life will receive their reward in the lowest kingdom, which is called the telestial kingdom. This kingdom is compared to the glory of the stars." (Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service, 53)

This edition of the missionary manual was made in 2004, it is the most current edition available and all missionaries use this manual as there guide in preaching the doctrine of the Church to investigators. It mentions nothing about progression between Kingdoms.

Having non scriptural or unorthodox beliefs is fine (I feel that Christ was born mortal and became immortal on the Mount of Transfiguration, so I myself have unorthodox beliefs as well), but one needs to bring contextual evidence to the table if they expect others to accept those position.

Your quote does not preclude in any way, shape, or form the possibility for progression between kingdoms.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[LDS Guy 1986]

No doubt.

Repentance after death:

D&C 76:37 only sons of perdition experience second death

D&C 76:38 only sons of perdition remain unredeemed

D&C 76:39

For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

D&C 76:44

Wherefore, he saves all except them[sons of prdition]

[mercyngrace]

I left this conversation and just came back (regrettably) and missed the exact scriptures you posted. I could only find a few in your posts, but you gave the gist of them. These are left to interpretation and you have to use your imagination to reach the point you would like us to see. However, the scriptures I posted earlier give no wiggle room at all. They are pretty clear that this life is a probationary state and if you reject that message, or die in your sin, there is no possibility of redemption after this life.

Agree to disagree. I see a ton of wiggle room in the scriptures you posted but that is really not the point, is it? BTW, it wasn't my imagination that led me to see the scriptures in this light, I assure you. And if it was, then these imaginings are shared by many of the brethren and have been over time. Remember, I never said there was post-ressurection progression between kingdoms so we are discussing radically different paradigms here.

I am open to all ideas, but after studying this issue, believe it to be a dangerous doctrine (which may explain some of my "defensiveness", that and I've been bed-ridden for the last month and a half and am going stir crazy!), and should not be taught. This isn't something harmless like BOM geography, but can be an excuse for people to sin. As mentioned, I've seen this happen (perhaps another reason why I take it personal) to so-called fence sitters. Sometimes all it takes is a little something like this to push them over the edge of sin. If it is true, then we will find out in the next life. Until then, why bring up something potentially dangerous? If it is not true, then those who used this as their "ticket" will be in a lot of trouble. Who knows, they might have fallen anyway, but I don't think we should help them.

And therein lies another fundamental misunderstanding. Anyone who would use near-universal salvation as a golden ticket can't be saved. You can only be saved THROUGH repentance. If Brother X decides he's going to eat, drink, and be merry, he can expect to reap what he's sown. But he can also expect that after he has suffered mightily, he will eventually be pronounced clean and returned to the Father "spotless" - that last bit is directly out of section 76 - unless he is a son of perdition. So there's nothing dangerous about the doctrine unless someone underestimates the exquisite suffering that hell entails or is simply a masochist. D&C 19 points out that there are really only two alternatives - either we repent or we suffer. The gospel, or good news, is that there is a way to end suffering! There has been a victory over hell and he grave! We come unto Christ. There are no shortcuts.

[mercyngrace]

None of these verses say what you are trying to make them say.'

If you say so.

Repentance After Death:

Just because only the Sons of Perdition experience eternal damnation does not mean that everyone else inherits Celestial Glory, Section 67 clearly says that there is people that also inherit Terrestrial and Telestial Glory.

I never said everyone inherits celestial glory. I'd suggest you slow down and read my posts instead of viscerally reacting to what you THINK I wrote.

Beings of different orders residing in the presence of God:

Returning to there own place can also mean returning to Celestial Earth, in the Kingdom they are assigned in the Day of Judgement, remember that higher beings can and will visit and reside with friends and family on lower kingdoms, so families can be together but not in Celestial Glory unless each member earns that reward. You can go down to spend time with others but those who are on lower kingdoms cannot go up to visit the Father.

So I've heard. Worlds are different than glories, LDS Guy.

The celestialization of the earth:

This is correct the Earth will inherit her celestial glory and return to her paradisaical state that she was in at the time of Eden. We will all live on this perfect celestial world, but that doesn't mean all of us inherit celestial glory, we inherit the glory that we earned through our works in this life, just as the Earth earned her celestial glory through her works.

Glad you are finally seeing my point. I never once said we would all inherit the same glory.I said we would all inherit the same kingdom or world.

edit: I also said that I could argue both sides of this issue and that it isn't about advocating a theory. Even though I am taking one side of the argument here, it doesn't mean I think for a second that I have the whole thing figured out - LOL! It just means I'm not closing myself off to any possibilities.

[Lamanite]

, but can be an excuse for people to sin. As mentioned, I've seen this happen (perhaps another reason why I take it personal) to so-called fence sitters. Sometimes all it takes is a little something like this to push them over the edge of sin. If it is true, then we will find out in the next life. Until then, why bring up something potentially dangerous? If it is not true, then those who used this as their "ticket" will be in a lot of trouble. Who knows, they might have fallen anyway, but I don't think we should help them.

If this is the thrust of your argument then the Atonement and it's offer of repentance should also be one your hit list of dangerous doctrines.

I think your argument is also a reflection of a life motivated by fear instead of love.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Lamanite]

edit: I also said that I could argue both sides of this issue and that it isn't about advocating a theory. Even though I am taking one side of the argument here, it doesn't mean I think for a second that I have the whole thing figured out - LOL! It just means I'm not closing myself off to any possibilities.

Agreed. Well said.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[mercyngrace]

If this is the thrust of your argument then the Atonement and it's offer of repentance should also be one your hit list of dangerous doctrines.

I think your argument is also a reflection of a life motivated by fear instead of love.

Big UP!

Lamanite

Even if that is true, the scriptures support a dual approach to teaching based on the most effective manner of reaching people. From Jude:

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

The Lord teaches us differently based on who we are and where we are in our understanding. It's all good.

[Rob Osborn]

Yes, but rejecting the Prophets is not rejecting the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Section 67 deals with those who rejected Christ in this life. Preach my Gospel (The LDS missionary handbook) says the following on the Kingdoms of Glory:

"During our mortal lives we make choices regarding good and evil. God rewards us according to our works and desires. Because God rewards everyone according to deeds done in the body, there are different kingdoms of glory to which we may be assigned after Judgement. Those who have repented of their sins and received the ordinances of the gospel and kept the associated covenants will be cleansed by the Atonement of Christ. They will receive exaltation in the highest kingdom, also know as the celestial kingdom. They will live in God's presence, become like Him, and relieve a fullness of joy. The will love together for eternity with those of there family who qualify. In the scriptures this kingdom is compared to the glory or brightness of the sun. People who do not accept the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ but live honorable lives will receive a place in the terrestrial kingdom. This kingdom is compared to the glory of the moon. Those who continued in there sins and did not repent in this life will receive their reward in the lowest kingdom, which is called the telestial kingdom. This kingdom is compared to the glory of the stars." (Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service, 53)

This edition of the missionary manual was made in 2004, it is the most current edition available and all missionaries use this manual as there guide in preaching the doctrine of the Church to investigators. It mentions nothing about progression between Kingdoms.

Having non scriptural or unorthodox beliefs is fine (I feel that Christ was born mortal and became immortal on the Mount of Transfiguration, so I myself have unorthodox beliefs as well), but one needs to bring contextual evidence to the table if they expect others to accept those position.

HERE READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY-

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 138:32)

It classifies two types of groups being preached to. The first mentioned are those who died in their sins without a knowledge of the truth. This mean they died without a knowledge of the gospel. The second group are those who died in their sins in transgression having rejected the prophets. This literally means they died with a knowledge of the truth of the gospel and chose to reject it in mortality. In this verse rejecting the prophets "is" rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Preach my gospel is in my opinion not teaching the correct doctrine concerning the plan of salvation.

[Rob Osborn]

We are in a Telestial Kingdom (not to be confused with The Telestial Kingdom of Heaven) because we needed to gain bodies and be separated from Go to make the choices (or not make the choices) necessary to return to his presence and inherit Godhood (or the lesser Degree of Celestial Glory or the lesser Kingdom we will be rewarded based on our works).

There was nothing that we did which was wrong per say, we simply advanced as far as we could as spirits and needed to experience things in a body outside of God's presence in order to continue growing towards eternity.

Just to clarify here. The temple wording specific is that we now live in "The Telestial Kingdom". The temple doesn't refer to our world as "A Telestial Kingdom". It is important that the temple wording is specific with the word "the". This is the same exact language in our scriptures when it refers to "The Telestial Kingdom". For all we know, the temple and the scriptures are referring to the same telestial kingdom.

Let's not forget about the concept of "heaven" here. We now are in the first heaven. From this first heaven we will progress to the second heaven and from there finally into the third heaven. This concept was being shown to Joseph Smith as he progressed in life. He was shown that the vision of "Jacob's ladder" was three rounds each progressing upwards. The lowest rung was the telestial kingdom. the second rung was the terrestrial kingdom and the top rung was the celestial kingdom. Later in life he taught us that attaining to godhood was climbing a ladder and we must start at the bottom and climb one rung at a time. When the telestial kingdom is over the earth will pass away by fire and then cometh a new "heaven" and earth. After this new kingdom (terrestrial) is over it too will pass away by fire and we shall then have once again a new "heaven" and earth. So, what the scriptures tell us is that we will pass through two heavens before attaining to the third heaven which will be the celestial kingdom of heaven.

Accordingly. the temple endowment shows us just that- we start on the lowest rung- the telestial kingdom and climb from there to the terrestrial kingdom and finally into the celestial kingdom.

[Rob Osborn]

No doubt.

Repentance after death:

D&C 76:37 only sons of perdition experience second death

D&C 76:38 only sons of perdition remain unredeemed

D&C 76:39

For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

D&C 76:44

Wherefore, he saves all except them[sons of prdition]

[Lamanite]

Even if that is true, the scriptures support a dual approach to teaching based on the most effective manner of reaching people. From Jude:

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

The Lord teaches us differently based on who we are and where we are in our understanding. It's all good.

Of course. I think fear based motivation is a reality for all of us to one degree or another. But I do think being motivated out of love is the ideal. I think it's important in this discussion to understand and recognize our own motivations. I never enjoy the self-searching and leveling of my pride, but the end result of this type of deep introspection is always fruitful.

Nobody wants to be the Prodigal son's resentful Brother. Nobody wants to be the complaining laborer. But in fact, we all possess those characteristics, and those character defects affect how we view ourselves and the world around us. Would that we could all be Good Samaritans and forgiving Masters (Luke 17).

Big UP!

Lamanite

[LDS Guy 1986]

Accordingly. the temple endowment shows us just that- we start on the lowest rung- the telestial kingdom and climb from there to the terrestrial kingdom and finally into the celestial kingdom.

This progression is representative of various phases of our life it is not intended to replace the revealed truth of the afterlife!

Symbolism is always prevalent in the teachings of Jesus Christ because we are not developed enough mentally to fully comprehend celestial law or celestial knowledge.

To place you full faith that you can live now in sin and make up for if latter is a dangerous thing to do especially when all you have is the weak and flawed interpretation of a symbolic ritual against the testimony of all the Prophets of God from Adam to Joseph Smith telling you now if your time to prepare.

[LDS Guy 1986]

HERE READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY-

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 138:32)

It classifies two types of groups being preached to. The first mentioned are those who died in their sins without a knowledge of the truth. This mean they died without a knowledge of the gospel. The second group are those who died in their sins in transgression having rejected the prophets. This literally means they died with a knowledge of the truth of the gospel and chose to reject it in mortality. In this verse rejecting the prophets "is" rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Preach my gospel is in my opinion not teaching the correct doctrine concerning the plan of salvation.

The big thing her is that those who died in there sins did so because the HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH!

Those who do have a knowledge of the truth (The restored Gospel) cannot be taught in the Spirit World because they had there chance in this life and rejected Christ.

The exception (in this case) is only there for those who had not access to the Fullness of the Gospel in there lifetime, and only them.

The other exception is for those who didn't reject Christ found in his Restored Gospel, but didn't come to accept his prophets. David Whitmer is a good example of this, he had a strong testimony of the truth of the Book of Mormon his whole life even though he rejected Joseph Smith and was excommunicated in 1838.

It appears that since he never rejected the Restored Gospel only the Prophet , that if Mr. Whitmer still lived according to the commandments of the Gospel his whole life that he will have a chance to repent in the Spirit World of his rejection of the Prophet and still inherit Celestial Glory.

[mercyngrace]

Lamanite,

I completely agree! Being motivated by love is the ideal. Joseph Smith taught that once we have perfect love we were beyond falling (TPJS p.5-6) I think this says a great deal about our purpose here. Then of course, we read that perfect love casts out all fear (1 John 4:18) and we hear the Lord calling charity the bond of perfectness and peace (D&C 88:125). But we also read that the fear of the Lord (yeah - I know that is really referencing a reverential awe) is the beginning of wisdom (Prov. 9:10), so line upon line, precept upon precept. Thank goodness the whole plan is about progression and makes allowances for our wobbly steps toward godhood! edit: And of course, there's Galatians 5:14

Rob,

I don't know why I even bother to post. LOL! You present this stuff so much better than I do, I'd be embarrassed if I weren't so busy being awestruck.

[Lamanite]

To place you full faith that you can live now in sin and make up for if latter

(italics and bold added)

And the idea that we somehow meritoriously become Celestial is a bit dangerous. If you remove the Savior from the equation then you are damned and will definitely get what you deserve. However, someone who accepts Jesus Christ as his/her Savior and valiantly strives to be true and faithful to the light and knowledge he/she has been given will surely be ushered into the presence of the Lord. And until then that day when Every knee shall bend and Every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, our Father will bless us with as much as we are willing to receive.... until we are willing and ready to receive more.

Sounds nice right?

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Lamanite]

Thank goodness the whole plan is about progression and makes allowances for our wobbly steps toward godhood!

If I were Elder Maxwell I might say something like this:

Relative to God we exist as tumbling toddlers, whose wobbling steps often bring us to our knees. Thus, providing opportunity for us to be tutored under the direction of the Master Sprinter.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[mercyngrace]

If I were Elder Maxwell I might say something like this:

Relative to God we exist as tumbling toddlers, whose wobbling steps often bring us to our knees. Thus, providing opportunity for us to be tutored under the direction of the Master Sprinter.

Big UP!

Lamanite

Love it I can almost hear his voice when I read that.

[LDS Guy 1986]

And the idea that we somehow meritoriously become Celestial is a bit dangerous.

Then the scriptures are dangerous:

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Rev 20:13)

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Rev 20:12)

And even unto the great and last day, when all people, and all kindreds, and all nations and tongues shall stand before God, to bejudged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil

[Deborah]

It is apparent from scriptures that one can continue to repent and progress in the spirit world. I have heard it said that "this life" includes the Spirit World prior to the end of the Millennium and final resurrection. Here is an interesting talk on this by Bruce McConkie describing the on-going process to become perfect as perfection cannot be obtained in mortality. However all this takes place prior to the resurrection.

This Life is the time

L. Tom Perry said this: "Through the glorious resurrection, body and spirit will be reunited. We will have a perfect, immortal body of flesh and bones that will never be subjected to pain or death. But the glory we attain to in the next life will depend on our performance in this life.

" (Ensign, Oct 2006).

There are multiple other talks about "this life" being the time to prepare to meet God. And why is that, because as we read in Alma 34:34 "Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."

Every person except sons of Perdition will be resurrected to a Kingdom of Glory, which includes the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms. None of the scriptures given clearly indicate that once resurrected you can continue to progress from kingdom to kingdom. That is interpretation and has never been doctrine and is not taught as doctrine. Some may theorize that is the case but I think we should be careful in espousing that as doctrine.

[Lamanite]

Then the scriptures are dangerous:

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Rev 20:13)

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Rev 20:12)

And even unto the great and last day, when all people, and all kindreds, and all nations and tongues shall stand before God, to bejudged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil

[mercyngrace]

And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; ~ Alma 22:14

Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise. ~ 2 Nephi 2:8

2 Nephi 31:19 shows that even our works (in this case baptism) are a product of His merits:

And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

So, works do not save us. The tender mercies of Christ, our advocate before the Father, save us.

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;

And once we repent and enter the covenant, fulfilling the commandment, we receive a remission of sins which in turn allows the Holy Ghost to baptize us with fire or refine us until we are sanctified. It's also interesting to note that even repentance is bestowed by God (v.28), something we can petition God to send to others. Amazing grace!

26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.

27 Behold, my son, I will write unto you again if I go not out soon against the Lamanites. Behold, the pride of this nation, or the people of the Nephites, hath proven their destruction except they should repent.

28 Pray for them, my son, that repentance may come unto them. But behold, I fear lest the Spirit hath ceased striving with them; and in this part of the land they are also seeking to put down all power and authority which cometh from God; and they are denying the Holy Ghost.

[Deborah]

65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;

66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 101:65 - 66)

Note here in the parable that Christ is explaining only two outcomes for all of mankind- either in the garners to possess eternal life in celestial glory or to be burned with the second death.

Really? That is not how I read this. If you go to LDS.org and put in "unquenchable fire" the topics related to this indicate this is the state prior to resurrection. We read in D&C 38:

5But behold, the residue of the wicked have I kept in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day, which shall come at the end of the earth;

6And even so will I cause the wicked to be kept, that will not hear my voice but harden their hearts, and wo, wo, wo, is their doom.

And what happens to the wicked or those who do not come forth in the first resurrection? They will come forth in the last resurrection to receive their glory and be released from the chains of hell.

Fire is described in the Bible dictionary as the following:

Fire. Frequently the symbol of God

[Lamanite]

I should also like to add from Maxwell:

"The validation of our worth really comes from knowing who we are, not solely from what we do...By paying more attention to what we are rather than exclusively to what we do...Father wants us to come home, bringing our real r

[Lamanite]

One more thing of note regarding context. From Nephi:

for I came out from Jerusalem, and mine eyes hath beheld the things of the ^bJews, and I know that the Jews do ^cunderstand the things of the prophets, and there is none other people that understand the things which were spoken unto the Jews like unto them, save it be that they are taught after the manner of the things of the Jews.

I think it is way beyond our capacity in this forum to do so, but I believe it would help to understand Jewish theology of the afterlife ca. 600 B.C. in order to better understand some of the BoM scriptures regarding the afterlife being quoted.

Big UP!

Lamanite