Progression between Kingdoms

[Alan]

It is pretty obvious to me that advancement from kingdom to kingdom is possible and required in the life to come. It is also obvious to me that some people will choose to experience another mortal probation as part of their eternal progress.

[LDS Guy 1986]

They key is "they need not fear and tremble". That implies salvation without repentance. Other scriptures referencing Nehor's followers bear this out:

Alma 15:15

15 But as to the people that were in the land of Ammonihah, they yet remained a hard-hearted and a stiffnecked people; and they repented not of their sins, ascribing all the power of Alma and Amulek to the devil; for they were of the profession of Nehor, and did not believe in the repentance of their sins.

Alma 14

Alma and Amulek were cast into prison by a judge after the order of Nehor for calling the people to repent of their wickedness. verses 18-24 show that those who professed the doctrine of Nehor were angry because Alma and Amulek judged them, IOW, held them to account for their behavior. They believed in salvation that was not conditional upon coming unto God.

Alma 21

When Aaron teaches the people of Jerusalm who were after the order or Nehor, we get a clear glimpse into Nehor's ideology:

4 And it came to pass that Aaron came to the city of Jerusalem, and first began to preach to the Amalekites. And he began to preach to them in their synagogues, for they had built synagogues after the order of the Nehors; for many of the Amalekites and the Amulonites were after the order of the Nehors.

5 Therefore, as Aaron entered into one of their synagogues to preach unto the people, and as he was speaking unto them, behold there arose an Amalekite and began to contend with him, saying: What is that thou hast testified? Hast thou seen an angel? Why do not angels appear unto us? Behold are not this people as good as thy people? (They don't believe man can know of spiritual things.)

6 Thou also sayest, except we repent we shall perish. How knowest thou the thought and intent of our hearts? How knowest thou that we have cause to repent? How knowest thou that we are not a righteous people? Behold, we have built sanctuaries, and we do assemble ourselves together to worship God. We do believe that God will save all men. (They do not believe men need to repent and believe outward acts alone make them righteous.)

7 Now Aaron said unto him: Believest thou that the Son of God shall come to redeem mankind from their sins?

8 And the man said unto him: We do not believe that thou knowest any such thing. We do not believe in these foolish traditions. We do not believe that thou knowest of things to come, neither do we believe that thy fathers and also that our fathers did know concerning the things which they spake, of that which is to come. (They do not believe in Christ and believe no man can even know of future events. They believe the gospel is a foolish tradition - mytholology.)

Now back in Alma 1, we see Nehor taught:

3 And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people.

4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.

So basically, Nehor taught that all men would be saved regardless of their beliefs and works - faith, repentance, baptism, etc. This doctrine of salvation regardless of repentance led to a rejection of Christ. Who needs a Redeemer if your actions are all above judgment? This led to:

32 For those who did not belong to their church did indulge themselves in sorceries, and in idolatry or idleness, and in babblings, and in envyings and strife; wearing costly apparel; being lifted up in the pride of their own eyes; persecuting, lying, thieving, robbing, committing whoredoms, and murdering, and all manner of wickedness; nevertheless, the law was put in force upon all those who did transgress it, inasmuch as it was possible.

(Alma 1)

The doctrine that all would be saved regardless of whether they repented naturally culminates in an anti-Christ position because guaranteed UNCONDITIONAL salvation erases the need for a Redeemer. People justified themselves in their actions, and rationalized away their sinfulness. They felt they were above being judged (Alma 14, 21).

This, I believe, is why Elder Nelson gave his talk about Divine Love. Salvation, the manifestation of God's love, is absolutely conditional. And the condition is repentance.

Another interesting observation from Alma 21:

Aaron goes to teach the people at Jerusalem, a people after the order of Nehor. He calls them to repentance and in response an Amalekite speaks up (vs.5-6) and asks how Aaron can possibly know their hearts and whether or not they need to repent. He then gives three tokens or signs which he presumes Aaron will recognize as signs of true believers. He says "How knowest thou that we are not a righteous people? Behold, we have built sanctuaries, and we do assemble ourselves together to worship God. We do believe that God will save all men."

Aaron does not rebut these points but instead asks a question to illustrate where their doctrine has gone awry. He asks "Believest thou that the Son of God shall come to redeem mankind from their sins?"

So the great sin of the followers of Nehor was believing in salvation without repentance through the atonement. They believed that God would redeem men in their sins or that men would merely receive "a few stripes. Aaron's silence on the issue of universal salvation shows that this is not the cause for concern. The falsehood is in believing that salvation can come without Redemption through Christ and repentance which is why Aaron specifically addresses that doctrine.

Where has Lamanite said repentance was not a requirement for salvation or exaltation? When is the night when no labor can be performed? Clearly it isn't the Spirit World since we do works for the dead. If we presume that one must progress prior to resurrection then this whole argument becomes moot. Just a possibility...

Joseph Smith: When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel

[LDS Guy 1986]

It is pretty obvious to me that advancement from kingdom to kingdom is possible and required in the life to come. It is also obvious to me that some people will choose to experience another mortal probation as part of their eternal progress.

CFR please, because it is bot obvious to the rest of use (especially your reincarnation theory).

[Jason]

I have seen no authoritative teaching that it is possible to progress between the kingdoms. I have seen teachings that to believe we will always have a second chance, that it will be okay to put off the day of our repentence because we're only going to get a few stripes for our sins and then we will proceed to the Celestial Kingdom, is wrong.

Therefore I choose to behave as if this life will determine my ultimate destination with no take backs.

[Lamanite]

I have seen no authoritative teaching that it is possible to progress between the kingdoms. I have seen teachings that to believe we will always have a second chance, that it will be okay to put off the day of our repentence because we're only going to get a few stripes for our sins and then we will proceed to the Celestial Kingdom, is wrong.

Therefore I choose to behave as if this life will determine my ultimate destination with no take backs.

I place no time limits on the Atonement or progression.

It may be worthy to note that my conversion and salvation in Jesus Christ compels me to live a life of adoration and emulation, because I love Him and accept his grace. I choose to act and become like Him because he proffers peace and joy both presently and eternally. Therefore, my life is a reflection of my commitment to Jesus Christ, not a reflection of a dangling post judgment "carrot" or some fear based model that scares me into living right.

And I will be the first in line to welcome any late comers to the party!

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Rob Osborn]

Your argument that Baptism for the Dead means people can make up for rejecting Christ in this life is incorrect. Baptism for the Dead is clearly explained in D&C 137:7, it is for those "who have died without a knowledge of [the restored] gospel."

Baptism for the dead a second chance to get things eight after not obeying Heavenly Father, it is the mercy of Christ towards those that died without access to the Gospel (in it's fullness) and/or the Priesthood/Temple (so the saving ordiances could be performed)

Baptism for the dead is for all those who choose to accept the gospel in the spirit world regardless of if they did or did not hear the gospel and/or reject it in mortality. When a person does accept the proxy baptism they will be judged as if they accepted it in mortality- that is how they will be judged.

[mercyngrace]

Your argument that Baptism for the Dead means people can make up for rejecting Christ in this life is incorrect. Baptism for the Dead is clearly explained in D&C 137:7, it is for those "who have died without a knowledge of [the restored] gospel."

Baptism for the dead a second chance to get things eight after not obeying Heavenly Father, it is the mercy of Christ towards those that died without access to the Gospel (in it's fullness) and/or the Priesthood/Temple (so the saving ordiances could be performed)

LDS standard works allow for post-mortal repentance, LDS Guy.

D&C 138:

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

This applies not only to those who lived without law but to the wayward. We have church leaders as recently as Elder Faust explaining that covenant abiding parents will have their wayward children returned to them.

I believe and accept the comforting statement of Elder Orson F. Whitney:

[Rob Osborn]

Not to mentin any names but I have had specific dreams of seeing people whom I know in my dreams hugging and kissing me in pure joy in the afterlife because they have accepted the gospel there but didn't do so in mortality. They were dressed in white raiment and were together event hough they did not accept it in mortality.

God is not a cruel God, neither is he hard or unjust. If a person finally chooses to become like God himself, then God himself will help that individual in any way in order to exalt that individual. God isn't just going to say- "No, I cannot exalt you because you waited just a little to long to change your ways and turn to me, too late and too bad".

We need to understand also the great millennium reign of Christ and what it is exactly he is going to be doing on the earth. Perhaps many do not realize it but there will be saints of God on the earth as resurrected individuals who had already spent time in the spirit prison and then accepted the gospel and been redeemed. There shall be saints who reign with Christ who at one time rejected the gospel in mortality but then accepted it in the spirit prison. Just what exactly are these converted to Christ saints going to be doing on the earth during the thousand year reign? Surely they will be building up the future kingdom that they will dwell in won't they?

[LDS Guy 1986]

LDS standard works allow for post-mortal repentance, LDS Guy.

CFR please.

D&C 138 pertains to those who died without a knowledge of the Gospel just like 137, you can't take the verse out of context of the rest of the Scriptures. The scriptures repeatedly profess that if you have access to the fullness of the Gospel your eternal progression is dependent on accepting it in this life.

[mercyngrace]

CFR please.

LDS Guy - I gave you two references in the comment for which you are seeking references. I said repentance is allowed in the Spirit World and provided a verse from the standard works which explicitly says "The dead who repent will be redeemed". That you don't like the reference doesn't mean one has not been provided.

D&C 138 pertains to those who died without a knowledge of the Gospel just like 137, you can't take the verse out of context of the rest of the Scriptures. The scriptures repeatedly profess that if you have access to the fullness of the Gospel your eternal progression is dependent on accepting it in this life.

Since you've laid down the charge that I'm speaking out of turn and apparently you don't believe President Faust quoting Elder Orson F. Whitney is authoritative (both statement being made in General Conferences), I will be happy to oblige you with quotes by other general leaders of the church.

"If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity." ~ President Lorenzo Snow

Oct 1893 GC

More recent, you ask? Here's President Packer almost 100 years after President Snow, reiterating the same message, that we can save our children (i.e. those willfully wayward can be reclaimed hereafter). From the Apr 1992 GC:

The measure of our success as parents, however, will not rest solely on how our children turn out. That judgment would be just only if we could raise our families in a perfectly moral environment, and that now is not possible.

It is not uncommon for responsible parents to lose one of their children, for a time, to influences over which they have no control. They agonize over rebellious sons or daughters. They are puzzled over why they are so helpless when they have tried so hard to do what they should.

It is my conviction that those wicked influences one day will be overruled.

[Lamanite]

LDS Guy - I gave you two references in the comment for which you are seeking references. I said repentance is allowed in the Spirit World and provided a verse from the standard works which explicitly says "The dead who repent will be redeemed". That you don't like the reference doesn't mean one has not been provided.

Since you've laid down the charge that I'm speaking out of turn and apparently you don't believe President Faust quoting Elder Orson F. Whitney is authoritative (both statement being made in General Conferences), I will be happy to oblige you with quotes by other general leaders of the church.

Oct 1893 GC

More recent, you ask? Here's President Packer almost 100 years after President Snow, reiterating the same message, that we can save our children (i.e. those willfully wayward can be reclaimed hereafter). From the Apr 1992 GC:

Joseph Smith also said "When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother" (Teachings p.321)

Now if that isn't enough, go to D&C 76 and read that everyone except Sons of Perdition will be "saved" and all of us will be pronounced "spotless" when Christ hands the kingdom over to the Father. Some will suffer the buffetings of Satan in hell but they will at last be redeemed as every knee will bow and every tongue confess Christ. All this is in D&C 76. Souls can't be saved unless they repent and come unto Christ.

(Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, edited by Edward L. Kimball [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982], 63.)

An unforced surrender or willing submission is practically the definition of repentance!

The Meaning of Repentance Aug 1988 Ensign

And finally, again, from President Kimball:

[Deborah]

LDS standard works allow for post-mortal repentance, LDS Guy.

Post mortal repentance indeed, but that's a different issue than being able to go from one kingdom to another once resurrection takes place. I think that's something we simply don't know and about which even GA's differ.

[mercyngrace]

Post mortal repentance indeed, but that's a different issue than being able to go from one kingdom to another once resurrection takes place. I think that's something we simply don't know and about which even GA's differ.

Yes, those are related but separate issues. However, I am responding the LDS Guy's CFR which you can see here.

[bluebell]

LDS Guy - I gave you two references in the comment for which you are seeking references. I said repentance is allowed in the Spirit World and provided a verse from the standard works which explicitly says "The dead who repent will be redeemed". That you don't like the reference doesn't mean one has not been provided.

Since you've laid down the charge that I'm speaking out of turn and apparently you don't believe President Faust quoting Elder Orson F. Whitney is authoritative (both statement being made in General Conferences), I will be happy to oblige you with quotes by other general leaders of the church.

Oct 1893 GC

More recent, you ask? Here's President Packer almost 100 years after President Snow, reiterating the same message, that we can save our children (i.e. those willfully wayward can be reclaimed hereafter). From the Apr 1992 GC:

Joseph Smith also said "When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother" (Teachings p.321)

Now if that isn't enough, go to D&C 76 and read that everyone except Sons of Perdition will be "saved" and all of us will be pronounced "spotless" when Christ hands the kingdom over to the Father. Some will suffer the buffetings of Satan in hell but they will at last be redeemed as every knee will bow and every tongue confess Christ. All this is in D&C 76. Souls can't be saved unless they repent and come unto Christ.

(Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, edited by Edward L. Kimball [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982], 63.)

An unforced surrender or willing submission is practically the definition of repentance!

The Meaning of Repentance Aug 1988 Ensign

And finally, again, from President Kimball:

[mercyngrace]

My parents recently had a GA in their stake conference (who's name i've forgotten but i can probably get it from them) who taught that repentance and forgivenss of sins is necessary for anyone to reside in any kingdom of glory-because no sin or sinfullness can be allowed in the terrestial kingdom or the telestial, anymore than it can be allowed in the celestial.

Could that mean that acknowledging or teaching that everyone can be forgiven for sins, as the prophets have, does not imply progression to the celestial kingdom from a lower one?

I'm not sure if the GA gave references for his teaching or elaborated on it further, but I thought it applied to the discussion so wanted to share.

If you go back to the first set of quotes I posted in this thread, resurrection is dependent upon a certain level of progression. BY indicates that it is dependent upon acquiring the knowledge requisite to reside in the presence of the Father which would mean that all resurrected beings end up in the Celestial Kingdom.

Here's the quote again:

If a person is baptized for the remission of sins, and dies a short time thereafter, he is not prepared at once to enjoy a fulness of the glory promised to the faithful in the Gospel; for he must be schooled while in the spirit, in the other departments of the house of God, passing on from truth to truth, from intelligence to intelligence, until he is prepared to again receive his body and to enter into the presence of the Father and the Son. We cannot enter into celestial glory in our present state of ignorance and mental darkness (DBY, 378

[Rob Osborn]

CFR please.

D&C 138 pertains to those who died without a knowledge of the Gospel just like 137, you can't take the verse out of context of the rest of the Scriptures. The scriptures repeatedly profess that if you have access to the fullness of the Gospel your eternal progression is dependent on accepting it in this life.

D&C section 138 pertains to "all" individuals who seek to repent and live godly lives. The section specifically states that the gospel will be preached to the dead who died in transgression having rejected the prophets. They are taught repentance, baptism and all other ordinances of the temple.

[Helorum]

[mercyngrace]

Not really.

http://expoundlds.com/guarantee.html

Very interesting analysis of the Orson Whitney quote, indeed. Does this indicate that the author believes all subsequent prophets quoting Elder Whitney are in error?

The larger argument (post-mortal repentance and continued progression) does not rely upon Elder Whitney' statement alone.

Parley P Pratt: "Thus perfected, the whole family will possess the material universe

[Alan]

I was at the temple the other day. Without giving anything away or devulging anything sacred, I was interested to note that the narrator in the film said, as Adam and Eve left the garden to enter this mortal existence "this is the telestial kingdom". I thought that was interesting. Elsewhere it refers to the telestial world but at that point it actually called it the telestial kingdom.

So are we in the telestial kingdom now?

Here's an off the wall scenario. Those who fail to make sufficient progress in mortality are assigned to the telestial kingdom. For some this is fine but others wish to progress further. They choose another mortal probation in order to progress further and improve their lot. Given that this is the telestial kingdom are we people who have already had a mortal life and failed to the point that we are assigned to the telestial kingdom? Are there others who are experiencing a terrestrial mortality?

I know, it sounds weird. But why else would we be in a telestial kingdom? If we lived with God in the celestial kingdom before, why are we in a telestial kingdom now. What did we do wrong?

[livy111us]

Why is it advocates of this theory have to resort to so much conjecture? All the while ignoring SCRIPTURES which state it is not possible?

[LDS Guy 1986]

I know, it sounds weird. But why else would we be in a telestial kingdom? If we lived with God in the celestial kingdom before, why are we in a telestial kingdom now. What did we do wrong?

We are in a Telestial Kingdom (not to be confused with The Telestial Kingdom of Heaven) because we needed to gain bodies and be separated from Go to make the choices (or not make the choices) necessary to return to his presence and inherit Godhood (or the lesser Degree of Celestial Glory or the lesser Kingdom we will be rewarded based on our works).

There was nothing that we did which was wrong per say, we simply advanced as far as we could as spirits and needed to experience things in a body outside of God's presence in order to continue growing towards eternity.

[mercyngrace]

Why is it advocates of this theory have to resort to so much conjecture? All the while ignoring SCRIPTURES which state it is not possible?

What conjecture?

D&C 76, 88, 130, 131, 132, 137, 138 are all scriptures.

And they teach repentance in the Spirit World, beings of different orders residing together in the presence of God, the celestialization of the earth.

Also, it isn't about being an advocate of any theory. It's about seeking out truth as it is contained right there in the scriptures - ALL the scriptures, not just the ones we are personally fond of. I've studied this topic enough that I could make the argument from either side and whichever way it turns out, I'm not worried about my standing with God. What is troublesome is the level of dogmatism that refuses to allow for the possibility that there just may be more to the issue than we presently understand. Defensiveness rarely leads to enlightenment.

[LDS Guy 1986]

D&C section 138 pertains to "all" individuals who seek to repent and live godly lives. The section specifically states that the gospel will be preached to the dead who died in transgression having rejected the prophets. They are taught repentance, baptism and all other ordinances of the temple.

Yes, but rejecting the Prophets is not rejecting the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Section 67 deals with those who rejected Christ in this life. Preach my Gospel (The LDS missionary handbook) says the following on the Kingdoms of Glory:

"During our mortal lives we make choices regarding good and evil. God rewards us according to our works and desires. Because God rewards everyone according to deeds done in the body, there are different kingdoms of glory to which we may be assigned after Judgement. Those who have repented of their sins and received the ordinances of the gospel and kept the associated covenants will be cleansed by the Atonement of Christ. They will receive exaltation in the highest kingdom, also know as the celestial kingdom. They will live in God's presence, become like Him, and relieve a fullness of joy. The will love together for eternity with those of there family who qualify. In the scriptures this kingdom is compared to the glory or brightness of the sun. People who do not accept the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ but live honorable lives will receive a place in the terrestrial kingdom. This kingdom is compared to the glory of the moon. Those who continued in there sins and did not repent in this life will receive their reward in the lowest kingdom, which is called the telestial kingdom. This kingdom is compared to the glory of the stars." (Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service, 53)

This edition of the missionary manual was made in 2004, it is the most current edition available and all missionaries use this manual as there guide in preaching the doctrine of the Church to investigators. It mentions nothing about progression between Kingdoms.

Having non scriptural or unorthodox beliefs is fine (I feel that Christ was born mortal and became immortal on the Mount of Transfiguration, so I myself have unorthodox beliefs as well), but one needs to bring contextual evidence to the table if they expect others to accept those position.

[LDS Guy 1986]

What conjecture?

D&C 76, 88, 130, 131, 132, 137, 138 are all scriptures.

And they teach repentance in the Spirit World, beings of different orders residing together in the presence of God, the celestialization of the earth.

CFR, show verses that say this in the provided sections, I cannot find any myself.

[livy111us]

What conjecture?

D&C 76, 88, 130, 131, 132, 137, 138 are all scriptures.

And they teach repentance in the Spirit World, beings of different orders residing together in the presence of God, the celestialization of the earth.

I left this conversation and just came back (regrettably) and missed the exact scriptures you posted. I could only find a few in your posts, but you gave the gist of them. These are left to interpretation and you have to use your imagination to reach the point you would like us to see. However, the scriptures I posted earlier give no wiggle room at all. They are pretty clear that this life is a probationary state and if you reject that message, or die in your sin, there is no possibility of redemption after this life.

Also, it isn't about being an advocate of any theory. It's about seeking out truth as it is contained right there in the scriptures - ALL the scriptures, not just the ones we are personally fond of. I've studied this topic enough that I could make the argument from either side and whichever way it turns out, I'm not worried about my standing with God. What is troublesome is the level of dogmatism that refuses to allow for the possibility that there just may be more to the issue than we presently understand. Defensiveness rarely leads to enlightenment.

I am open to all ideas, but after studying this issue, believe it to be a dangerous doctrine (which may explain some of my "defensiveness", that and I've been bed-ridden for the last month and a half and am going stir crazy!), and should not be taught. This isn't something harmless like BOM geography, but can be an excuse for people to sin. As mentioned, I've seen this happen (perhaps another reason why I take it personal) to so-called fence sitters. Sometimes all it takes is a little something like this to push them over the edge of sin. If it is true, then we will find out in the next life. Until then, why bring up something potentially dangerous? If it is not true, then those who used this as their "ticket" will be in a lot of trouble. Who knows, they might have fallen anyway, but I don't think we should help them.