Progression between Kingdoms

[LDS Guy 1986]

The quote above is exhibit A in my case against hyper legalism and orthopraxy.

A little C.S. Lewis maybe?

"as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."

Perhaps you should view the Gospel and repentance through a lens colored by the Atonement of Jesus Christ, instead of your unprofitable service. Please do not attempt to "frustrate the grace of God" by pointing to the small pile of good deeds you have performed while in mortality. Besides, when compared with the single Mountainous deed of Gethsemane you may find you are squatting atop a mole hill.

With Maxwell we should say,

"if I have any entitlement to the blessings of God, it has long since been settled in the court of small claims by His generous bestowals over a lifetime."

When viewing the possibilities of the Eternities I hesitate to place functional and/or time limits on an Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnibenevolent God. I will always err on the side of Mercy. Like President Faust said:

" I am frank to admit that when I say my prayers, I do not ask for justice; I ask for mercy."

Big UP!

Lamanite

You call it hyper legalism, I call it, God's constant warning to us to not waste the time he gave us to prepare for Godhood.

[mercyngrace]

It is apparent from scriptures that one can continue to repent and progress in the spirit world. I have heard it said that "this life" includes the Spirit World prior to the end of the Millennium and final resurrection. Here is an interesting talk on this by Bruce McConkie describing the on-going process to become perfect as perfection cannot be obtained in mortality. However all this takes place prior to the resurrection.

Harold B. Lee stated: "Our existence is eternal. We use words rather loosely

when we speak of the "life before this, and this life, and the next life," as

though we were a cat of nine lives, when as a matter of fact we only have

one life. This life we speak of did not begin with mortal birth. This life does

not end with mortal death. There is something that is not created or made.

The scriptures called it "intelligence," which at a certain stage in the preexistence

was organized into a "spirit." After that spirit had grown to a

certain stature it then was given the opportunity by an all-wise Father to

come into another stage for its development. It was added upon, and after

having lived its span and having attained to its purpose in mortality, another

change took place. We go, not into another life, in fact, but into another

stage of the same life . There is something which was not created or made,

and something which does not die, and that something shall live on forever."

(Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, page 74)

Deborah, could this be what you've heard taught?

[Deborah]

Deborah, could this be what you've heard taught?

More specific to the teachings of "This life is the time to prepare..." Usually taught by BYU religious professors. I think even if progression from one kingdom to another were possible, once a person has progressed to a certain kingdom he likely will have the attributes of that kingdom and no longer have a desire to progress further.

[Lamanite]

You call it hyper legalism, I call it, God's constant warning to us to not waste the time he gave us to prepare for Godhood.

After discussing this with you for this long, I still fail to see how the truly converted would view the belief in progression after death/judgment would use it as an excuse to procrastinate their discipleship and revolt. And for the unconverted who are willfully in open rebellion, I don't think it's going to matter one way or the other.

Repentance and the hope of forgiveness for ones own self and others breeds an increase in discipleship not the opposite. See Alma the Younger, Enos, Saul, et. al.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Deborah]

I had another thought. Marriage under the sealing power is a requirement of exaltation. However, marriage can only be done in mortality, either for oneself, or by proxy. If marriage can only be done in this life how can anyone not already married and sealed at the time of the resurrection ever attain exaltation?

[Lamanite]

no longer have a desire to progress further.

And here we have the tipping point. What if that person for whatever reason has a real change of heart at some point in the future and desires further light and knowledge? What if he is willing to do what it takes to re-enter the Fathers presence. Will God's mercy and love be robbed? The demands of justice have already been met on this persons behalf. Will the repentant son or daughter be rejected at that point because he/she missed the deadline? I know I wouldn't reject my son or daughter. And if I would not, how much more loving and forgiving is God?

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Deborah]

Will the repentant son or daughter be rejected at that point because he/she missed the deadline?

I don't think there can be any missing of the deadline. We all will have every opportunity available prior to resurrection to do what is needed to achieve exaltation.

[livy111us]

If this is the thrust of your argument then the Atonement and it's offer of repentance should also be one your hit list of dangerous doctrines.

I think your argument is also a reflection of a life motivated by fear instead of love.

Big UP!

Lamanite

Quite the assumption (again), Lamanite. I live my life the way I do, as I am sure most other LDS, because of love for the Savior, because it brings me happiness, and several other reasons. Fear doesn't play a big role in the way I live my life. Feel free to stick to the facts.

I am confused why you would "assume" why the atonement would be on a hit list? I'm not sure if you read this in most every post I have posted thus far, but, I believe the scriptures are correct when they say that this life is the time to repent, and then you die when no labor can be performed. Not sure how you can attempt to make me an enemy of the atonement from believing what the scriptures teach. If you want to move onto ad hominem attacks, go for it, but it doesn't strengthen your case at all. I thing mercyandgrace makes a better case and is still cordial. Try it out, it may work wonders!

[LDS Guy 1986]

After discussing this with you for this long, I still fail to see how the truly converted would view the belief in progression after death/judgment would use it as an excuse to procrastinate their discipleship and revolt. And for the unconverted who are willfully in open rebellion, I don't think it's going to matter one way or the other.

Repentance and the hope of forgiveness for ones own self and others breeds an increase in discipleship not the opposite. See Alma the Younger, Enos, Saul, et. al.

I agree and this makes one want to save there fellow man, but if there fellow man rejects Christ in this life they cannot make up for it after the fact! Now is the time to choose, when we are separated from God by mortality and the veil, so that we make the choice by faith not by knowledge.

[livy111us]

Remember, I never said there was post-ressurection progression between kingdoms so we are discussing radically different paradigms here.

If this is the case then I completely mis-understood you, and am curious what your position is. I apologize if you've already posted it.

[Lamanite]

I am confused why you would "assume" why the atonement would be on a hit list?

Because it was your case that post mortal repentance may encourage an individual to delay repentance and continue in sin-- so then an Atonement that offers grace and forgives misdeeds may also encourage the rebellious to sin now and repent later.

The type of people that rationalize this way are flawed in their understanding of the Atonement and true conversion.

Also, sorry for the perceived ad hom's. Admittedly, I live more than a few commandments out of fear and blind obedience, even though I may resent or not fully understand the law. Fortunately, I'm at a point in my life when I can freely admit it, and honestly look at how those dispositions and beliefs may influence my actions and beliefs.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Rob Osborn]

This progression is representative of various phases of our life it is not intended to replace the revealed truth of the afterlife!

Symbolism is always prevalent in the teachings of Jesus Christ because we are not developed enough mentally to fully comprehend celestial law or celestial knowledge.

To place you full faith that you can live now in sin and make up for if latter is a dangerous thing to do especially when all you have is the weak and flawed interpretation of a symbolic ritual against the testimony of all the Prophets of God from Adam to Joseph Smith telling you now if your time to prepare.

I wouldn't be so sure. The temple shows us the "full" plan of salvation that is instituted to bring us back into the celestial kingdom in the end after the millennium.

The temple does have symbolism- a lot of it. For instance- the world room is a "symbol" of the world in which we now live in. This world we are told is the telestial kingdom. So, the symbolism of the "world room" in the temple is that it symbolizes "the telestial kingdom"= the world we now live in. It's as simple as that.

So what about those who procrastinate in sin? Take two twins- They both decide to live riotous lives in full knowledge that the truth is there in front of them. they both say- "we will repent later". Then suddenly one day old in their age a meteor comes and kills one of them off. The other brother is heart-striken and repents and turns to the Lord living the rest of his life of conversion to the Lord and helping others. So, what happens to the twin who died? Is he eternally screwed or will he have the same opportunity to repent and come unto Christ just as the other brother?

Think about that for a bit.

[mercyngrace]

I had another thought. Marriage under the sealing power is a requirement of exaltation. However, marriage can only be done in mortality, either for oneself, or by proxy. If marriage can only be done in this life how can anyone not already married and sealed at the time of the resurrection ever attain exaltation?

If progression is required for resurrection (as it seems from the quotes I posted in my first comment on this thread), then this point is moot. Marriages would occur in mortality or the Spirit World consistent with scripture.

I don't think there can be any missing of the deadline. We all will have every opportunity available prior to resurrection to do what is needed to achieve exaltation.

That is exactly what I believe, Deborah.

[Lamanite]

If progression is required for resurrection (as it seems from the quotes I posted in my first comment on this thread), then this point is moot. Marriages would occur in mortality or the Spirit World consistent with scripture.

I think this is probably the safest belief regarding the subject. I tend to take it one step further but I think the scriptural evidence for this standpoint is substantial. While progression between kingdoms can be inferred by someone such as me, it is in no way close to being doctrinal.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[livy111us]

Because it was your case that post mortal repentance may encourage an individual to delay repentance and continue in sin-- so then an Atonement that offers grace and forgives misdeeds may also encourage the rebellious to sin now and repent later.

The type of people that rationalize this way are flawed in their understanding of the Atonement and true conversion.

Also, sorry for the perceived ad hom's. Admittedly, I live more than a few commandments out of fear and blind obedience, even though I may resent or not fully understand the law. Fortunately, I'm at a point in my life when I can freely admit it, and honestly look at how those dispositions and beliefs may influence my actions and beliefs.

Big UP!

Lamanite

No prob on the ad hom. Like I said, I've had some major medical problems this last month (almost died! ugh!) and am a little on edge from being cooped up so long. So please don't take any of my "nastiness" to heart, if that is the way I come across. I'm usually very nice and calm, but haven't been myself. So I apologize if I've seem a little rough.

[LDS Guy 1986]

If progression is required for resurrection (as it seems from the quotes I posted in my first comment on this thread), then this point is moot. Marriages would occur in mortality or the Spirit World consistent with scripture.

I agree the only thing said in the scriptures about marriage is that it cannot happen AFTER the resurrection.

[LDSGuy]

I once had this discussion with some friends. My friends were not open to the ideal of "universal salvation" (as I believe this is what this thread is really about). They said that it would not be fair for those who did not accept the gospel in the life, when presented with it (or after having accepted it, turned away from it), to receive the same reward as the faithful. I didn't say it at the time, but I thought to myself that when we are exalted that we will not care about fair. We will be filled with love for our brothers and sisters, and will have nothing but a desire to dwell with them for time and eternity in the presence of our Father in Heaven. Our love for them will be such that we will not desire for them to remain in the kingdom to which they attained, but for them to share in the joy which we will have, if it so be we are worthy to dwell in our Father's presence.

Another thought was, "What's the point in someone suffering for their own sins if they will still not be allowed to dwell in the Father's presence?" If they suffer for their sins, is not justiced satisfied? Have they not met the demands of the law, and by so doing set free? Do I punish my children forever if they are disobedient, or do I return their privileges after their punishment has been carried out and a lesson has been learned which changes their conduct/attitude?

Are we not promised by the Savior that if we repent, we need not suffer as He did? Is it that those who repent and are obedient avoid suffering for their sins and are counted worthyto directly enter into the Father's presence, while those who rejected the message in this life and were disobedient have to suffer for their sins and are not granted access to the Father's presence until they have accepted the gospel message and suffered as Christ suffered? Is the punishment called Eternal because it is named after the "Eternal" (the Father) and not because it is necessarily some length of time?

These are some questions I have asked myself and pondered on. Maybe your insight might be able to help. Maybe I could copy and paste this to a new thread.

[Deborah]

Marriages would occur in mortality or the Spirit World consistent with scripture.

Except it isn't done in the spirit world, it's done here on earth by proxy, which is why the Millennium will be so busy.

[mercyngrace]

If this is the case then I completely mis-understood you, and am curious what your position is. I apologize if you've already posted it.

livy,

If you go back to my first post in the thread, after I post a bunch of scriptures explaining the doctrine of Nehor, I post a few quotes that indicate that resurrection occurs as a culminating point of progression rather than prior to our continued progression.

Brigham Young stated that we have to attain a certain level of knowledge before we can be resurrected. Joseph Smith (D&C 131) taught that we can't be saved in ignorance. There are things we must know and perhaps be before we can even be resurrected!

If resurrection is the doorway to the celestial world, then we enter therein after we have progressed. Within that kingdom there are beings of various glories (telestial, terrestrial, celestial/exalted).

A glory (per D&C 88:28) is that degree to which your bodies are quickened and also represents the powers and priesthoods associated with that glory (exalted beings having the power of eternal increase, for example). Here's another simple definition from the lds.org Guide to the Scriptures:

In the scriptures, glory often refers to God

[mercyngrace]

Except it isn't done in the spirit world, it's done here on earth by proxy, which is why the Millennium will be so busy.

Agreed. That was just an error in semantics.

[Rob Osborn]

I once had this discussion with some friends. My friends were not open to the ideal of "universal salvation" (as I believe this is what this thread is really about). They said that it would not be fair for those who did not accept the gospel in the life, when presented with it (or after having accepted it, turned away from it), to receive the same reward as the faithful. I didn't say it at the time, but I thought to myself that when we are exalted that we will not care about fair. We will be filled with love for our brothers and sisters, and will have nothing but a desire to dwell with them for time and eternity in the presence of our Father in Heaven. Our love for them will be such that we will not desire for them to remain in the kingdom to which they attained, but for them to share in the joy which we will have, if it so be we are worthy to dwell in our Father's presence.

In regards to this I often think of the fellowship at church on Sundays. I notice that we do not have telestial, terretsrial, or even celestial pews for the saints to sit in. No, we all mingle together in sociality, from the least to the greatest. The same goes for the temple, we do not each have a different status from temple membership. No, we are all equal and mingle alike together in sociality. This too will be how heaven will be- we shall all be there together- all of the saved together to enjoy each other and enjoy the glory of God alike.

Another thought was, "What's the point in someone suffering for their own sins if they will still not be allowed to dwell in the Father's presence?" If they suffer for their sins, is not justiced satisfied? Have they not met the demands of the law, and by so doing set free? Do I punish my children forever if they are disobedient, or do I return their privileges after their punishment has been carried out and a lesson has been learned which changes their conduct/attitude?

This is perhaps the biggest roadblock for us to overcome. Somehow we are ina dogmatic tradition of believeing that even though repentance is required to be saved, we will still be judged by our sins in mortality. There is everything wrong with that approach and yet it remains as a thorn in our side- a flaw in our doctrinal beliefs. If one repents, then Christ remembers their sins no more. This literally means that they cannot be brought up in judgment. We will only be judged off of two things- those things we never repented of and the good works we did attain to (covenants of the temple).

Are we not promised by the Savior that if we repent, we need not suffer as He did? Is it that those who repent and are obedient avoid suffering for their sins and are counted worthyto directly enter into the Father's presence, while those who rejected the message in this life and were disobedient have to suffer for their sins and are not granted access to the Father's presence until they have accepted the gospel message and suffered as Christ suffered? Is the punishment called Eternal because it is named after the "Eternal" (the Father) and not because it is necessarily some length of time?

One thing that needs to be understood is that nobody except for the sons of perdition will have to suffer like Christ. Section 19 of the D&C where it speaks of suffering eternal damnation is only reserved for the sons of perdition who choose not to repent. This is the charge of that section- repent or suffer as Christ suffered. But what we fail to understand is that the specific timing of "this suffering" as spoken of in section 19 only takes place after the millenium and resurrection and judgment.

[MDesigns]

Lamanite,

I completely agree! Being motivated by love is the ideal. Joseph Smith taught that once we have perfect love we were beyond falling (TPJS p.5-6) I think this says a great deal about our purpose here. Then of course, we read that perfect love casts out all fear (1 John 4:18) and we hear the Lord calling charity the bond of perfectness and peace (D&C 88:125). But we also read that the fear of the Lord (yeah - I know that is really referencing a reverential awe) is the beginning of wisdom (Prov. 9:10), so line upon line, precept upon precept. Thank goodness the whole plan is about progression and makes allowances for our wobbly steps toward godhood! edit: And of course, there's Galatians 5:14

Rob,

I don't know why I even bother to post. LOL! You present this stuff so much better than I do, I'd be embarrassed if I weren't so busy being awestruck.

I'm really enjoying Robs comments too but also yours, mercyngrace!

[MDesigns]

Joseph's comments about Jacob's ladder were brought up earlier. I love this part of that quote: "I could explain a hundredfold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision were I permitted and were the people ready to receive them."

A good reminder that we don't know everything there is to know about this subject, but seeking out the possibilites sure are fascinating!

Considering what it takes to reach the third rung on the ladder (celestial), I'm SO grateful that we have the chance to progress to higher glory/kingdoms, if we don't "qualify" this time around.

Some of what is required...

-John Taylor: "If any man or woman expects to enter into the celestial kingdom of our God without being tested to the very uttermost, they have not understood the Gospel. If there is a weak spot in our nature, or if there is a fiber that can be made to quiver or to shrink, we may rest assured it will be tested." How many of us have been tested 'til every fiber has been made to quiver?

-We are to receive a crown. What have most of us done to be worthy of such. We are to be Valiant; bear valiant testimonies - what truly valiant acts have the majority of us done and how long is our list of such acts? How would we feel standing next to a Nephi or Moroni with our paltry list? How would it feel to stand next to one such as Abinadi who gave his amazing testimony if our testimony sharing is only to "friendlies" or in testimony meeting? (Many missionaries have a chance to bear valiant testimony for 2 years, but do most continue in this regard their entire lives? I don't know many who do.)

-We must be "overcome by faith" (D&C 76:53) I only personally know a handful I would view as such. Even if we were to consider ourselves as such, what about our family members; friends? Are they? Wouldn't be much of a heaven without them. Could we really have joy in exaltation without our loved ones if they had no hope of joining us?

-Must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. (D&C 76:53)

-Must be one "into whose hands the Father has given all things." (D&C 76:55) I don't know any personally who has been given all things.

-Must receive a "manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, (that) they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory" (D&C 76:118) which includes having things revealed to him that are "not lawful for man to utter."

(I should insert here that this is one of the many many scriptures that support the idea of multiple mortalities, but thats for a different discussion. It was nice to see another poster mention this earlier

-Must ..."abide the celestial law, and the whole law too." DHC 6:185. There are parts of the celestial law that have been given in the past that we no longer even practice.

-We must do "everything which God has commanded". DHC 6:223.

-Must "sacrifice ALL things". DHC 5:555

Those who cry the loudest that the less valiant will be damned forever in a lower kingdom may be the first to find themselves giving the loudest prayer that they were wrong! Just sayin.

[Deborah]

One thing that needs to be understood is that nobody except for the sons of perdition will have to suffer like Christ. Section 19 of the D&C where it speaks of suffering eternal damnation is only reserved for the sons of perdition who choose not to repent. This is the charge of that section- repent or suffer as Christ suffered. But what we fail to understand is that the specific timing of "this suffering" as spoken of in section 19 only takes place after the millenium and resurrection and judgment.

Not so. Those who don't accept the Atonement will do their own suffering. Even those who accept the Atonement will still have to suffer but they will not suffer as Christ. Dallin Oaks gives a talk on this Sin and suffering

He makes this point:

Am I suggesting that the benefits of the Atonement are not available for the person who heedlessly sins? Of course not. But I am suggesting that there is a relationship between sin and suffering that is not understood by people who knowingly sin in the expectation that all the burden of suffering will be borne by Another, that the sin is all theirs but that the suffering is all His. That is not the way. Repentance, which is an assured passage to an eternal destination, is nevertheless not a free ride.

Let us recall two scriptures: (1)

[Deborah]

Those who cry the loudest that the less valiant will be damned forever in a lower kingdom may be the first to find themselves giving the loudest prayer that they were wrong! Just sayin.

Good grief. No one is desiring that; but one has to look at the reality. I still ask the question how one can attain exaltation if he hasn't been sealed to a spouse before the end of the Millennium after which no such sealings can take place. Matthew 22:30 is very clear on this "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."