Can those that reject the Gospel in this life still receive Celestial Glory?

[LDS Guy 1986]

For being a veteran of Iraq, you sure are touchy. But you're right. I should be less sarcastic. I apologize.

(But you're still wrong about what happened on the Mount of Transfiguration.)

Yes, I am when people get disrespectful I get very intolerant very quickly. I do my best to reamin respectful at all times, but I will never accept or allow unjust hostility towards me or another person. I fought for that in Iraq and I'll fight for it till my dying breath no matter where I am, we all deserve respect at all times from everyone. There is no excuse ever that justifies disrespect to anyone for any reason.

I accept your apology and I too apologize for any animosity, hostility, or disrespect I have shown you intentionally or unintentionally.

I know you believe I am wrong about the Mount of transfiguration, the point isn't about who is right and how is wrong, it's about the free and civil exchange of ideas and opinions even if we don't agree on each others positions.

[Mark Beesley]

Do you think he was resurrected then?

I don't know. The revelation doesn't say.

If not, then it is a vision of the future or of a future promise of exaltation which is possible in LDS doctrine.

Is there a reason Alvin couldn't have been resurrected?

Yes. Perhaps I did not communicate that very well. I also included the "ancient equivalent"; Israelites, early (not yet apostate) Christians, etc. The Church is the same Church be it heavenly or earthly or given some other appellation

Oh. It seemed like your reference to "ancient equivalents" was to nonLDS types.

Yes of course they were "LDS". It is the same Church.

Perhaps it would be better to refer to the Church which includes early saints, Latter-day Saints, and saints in heaven as The Church of the Firstborn.

My argument so far has been airtight for a number of years (a challenge to anyone to make me defend it).

Nah, It's airtight. I let you suffocate in it.

You can raise your eyes heavenward all you want . . .

Thank you.

[MorningStar]

D&C 137:5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

This has to be a vision of the future because this was written in January 1836. Joseph Smith's mother didn't die until May 1856. His dad didn't die until Sept. 1840.

[Mark Beesley]

D&C 137:5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

This has to be a vision of the future because this was written in January 1836. Joseph Smith's mother didn't die until May 1856. His dad didn't die until Sept. 1840.

Excellent point. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Rob Osborn]

This is too easy, Alma is taking to those with a knowledge of the fullness of the Gospel, they only have this life to prepare. Once this life is over they can still accept the gospel in the next life and inherit terrestrial glory but never celestial glory. If they reject Christ and his gospel in both the spirit world and in life they inherit telestial glory. D&C 76 explains this clearly, D&C 76 pertains to those who come live and have the fullness of the gospel presented to them to accept or reject, in my opinion, the definition of accepting or rejecting the Gospel is unclear and ultimately it is Christ decision who accepted and who rejected.

For those and only, those who lived there entire life without access to the fullness of the Gosple (in this dispensation the restored Gospel) they qualify for being able to recieve and accept the gospel in the next life as described in D&C 138. They can accept proxy ordiances done on there behalf by there desendents in temples to recieve celestial glory. They can do this because they never had the fullness of the Gospel to accept or reject in there lifetimes. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ being just and merciful, cannot punish someone for something they had no contol over, if the fullness of the Gospel wasn't available to them they have a chance to accept it after death.

If you have the fullness of the gospel available in your lifetime then you do not qualify since you had the chance to accept or reject it, in this lifetime. Those who can accept it in this lifetime must do so, you cannot procrastinate the day of your salvation if you have access to the fullness of the Gospel and the priesthood to have the saving ordiances performed.

The same applies to those who died without ever being able to be sealed or endowed in this life even though they were baptized and members of the Church, because they could not make it to a temple to be sealed. If they couldn't reach the temple becuase they couldn't afford to go or there health was too poor, ect, then they can have there remaining ordiances performed by proxy to accept in the spirit world.

President Woodruff performed a proxy baptism for a old friend of his who heard and accepted the restored gospel (and actually knew that it was comming through a dream he had) but died of old age before an elder could get to him to perform his baptism and conformation. Since his lack of odriances is no fault of his own, he can recieve proxy ordiances and still attain celestial glory.

If you do not accept the Gospel or do not have the proper ordiances performed when you have access to them there is no second chance.

Really ordiances for the dead isn't a second chance for those who recieve the ordiances, it is there first chance since they didn't har access to the ordiances and/or the fullness of the gospel in there lifetime.

Trying to justify procrastinating salvation or rejection of the Restored Gospel and Jesus Christ in this life is a mockery of Christ and the atonement in my opinion.

There is not contradtiction in the two verses if you do not take them outbid context. D&C 138 only applies to those who had no access to the Gospel and/or the ordiances of salvation. If you have access to the Restored Gospel and the ordiances of salvation then you cannot qualify for D&C 138 and fall into D&C 76 and Alma 34:33-35.

This complements the teachings of the OT, NT, BoM, D&C, and PoGP, these multiple testaments of this provide convincing evidenc that this is a true teaching.

What is presented in your position conflicts with the OT, NT, BoM, D&C, and PoGP, in my opinion this tells me it is not based in truth.

If there was any contextual evidence to support your position I could give it some weight (I still wouldn't accept it since it has little weight compared to the mountian of weight for the literal writing of D&C 67) the only thing that could make me accept you position is a revelation of the Lord given through his 15 Apostles (with a unanimous decision) and sustained by the membership in General Conference, as we have done to vet revelation since the early days of the Church. Even then it would take much prayer and fasting to accept such a revelation that conflicts so much with all the standard works, but I have faith that if it is the will of the Lord that the Holy Ghost will confirm that the revelation is truth.

This what the the scriptures, teachings of the modern prophets, and the Holy Ghost tell me is truth. There is nothing short of a bonifide revelation to the living prophet that can make me doubt this doctrine.

The proof is in the pudding as they say, IMO

Read 138 again. It specifically says that the gospel is preached to "all" who will repent and receive the gospel. This includes, as it states, those in "transgression having rejected the prophets". This exactly states that there is as many chances as needed to save souls from hell.

Perhaps we just disagree. I do find it interesting from the poll that the majority of people who have voted have not voted in favor of the no second chance idea. That has to mean something about how people understand the gospel.

[Calm]

Really, my question to BCSpace goes more to whether or not we can consider a person who accepts the Gospel after death a "Latter-day Saint." And what about Adam and Abraham? They were not Latter-day Saints. Sloppy language in arguments makes for poor arguments.

Can you imagine Alma saying something along the lines of "there will only be Nephites in heaven with God".

I dislike it when people use the terms for the modern-day, current Church of Jesus Christ as if it were the only organization that God has ever seen fit to maintain through the eternities or as if God is constantly doing 'upgrades' on his eternal church so that currently the heavenly church matches the LDS one here in mortality as opposed to the LDS one being a shadow of the eternal heavenly church of God..

Those whose proxy work has been done are not listed as "LDS' and it is absurd to do so imo when they never even lived during the time period this version of the Church of God existed on earth. And I have found it very confusing to those who are not LDS.

The reality is that the LDS are a subset of the Church of Jesus Christ, the Body of Christ, those whose names are written in the Book of Life or the Book of the Lamb, etc. etc.

I would prefer to simply use the term "Saints" when discussing anyone's 'organizational affiliation' when it comes to postmortality and the Church of the Lamb of God as the name of that organization as stated in the Book of Mormon.

[LDS Guy 1986]

The reality is that the LDS are a subset of the Church of Jesus Christ, the Body of Christ, those whose names are written in the Book of Life or the Book of the Lamb, etc. etc.

I disagree there has and always will only be one true Church ever, it was established by Adam after he was forced from the Garden of Eden, it has gone through cycles of apostasy and restoration throughout time, but they are all the same one true Church restored in each dispensation of time. The Church restored by Moses is the same Church restored by Christ, is the same Church restored by Joseph Smith. I don't feel that there can be subsets, sects, or branches of the Church of Jesus Christ. It always wasn't called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and didn't always have the exact same doctrine but since the time of Adam God has been revealing his will line upon line, precept upon precept, to the prophets of his one true Church. Multiple subsets of the one true church seems contradictorily IMO, you can't have multiple versions of the one true anything.

[LDS Guy 1986]

(Does this mean Mormon's really aren't Christians???)

If they are judging other people then they are not Mormon (and yes Mormons are Christians)

[Calm]

I disagree there has and always will only be one true Church ever, it was established by Adam after he was forced from the Garden of Eden, it has gone through cycles of apostasy and restoration throughout time, but they are all the same one true Church restored in each dispensation of time. The Church restored by Moses is the same Church restored by Christ, is the same Church restored by Joseph Smith. I don't feel that there can be subsets, sects, or branches of the Church of Jesus Christ. It always wasn't called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and didn't always have the exact same doctrine but since the time of Adam God has been revealing his will line upon line, precept upon precept, to the prophets of his one true Church. Multiple subsets of the one true church seems contradictorily IMO, you can't have multiple versions of the one true anything.

I am talking about subsets of people.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I am talking about subsets of people.

Oh! Ok then my previous statement does not apply here! Thanks for the clarification!

[Obiwan]

Rejecting the prophets is not the same as rejecting the gospel. Oliver Cowdery ultimately rejected that Jospeh Smith was a prophet of God, he and many others came to believe that Jospeh was a fallen prophet.

Oliver rejected the Prophet of God, he never rejected the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, till his dying breath he always said that The Book of Mormon was true, he simply lost faith in the Prophet not the Gospel.

Your verse never once says that you cab reject the Gospel your entire life and accept it in the next life and recieve Celestial Glory.

Rejecting a Prophet, is not the same as rejecting Christ!

Actually, an FYI in case someone else didn't mention it..... You're mixing story's of who left the Church.

Oliver Cowdery was one of those that came back into full fellowship, having repented fully accepting the Church and the Prophet.

[Obiwan]

Well I think part of the problem is that many have grown up with the idea that the Celestial is for LDS, the Terrestial is for good nonLDS people, the Telestial is for the wicked redeemed from hell. Even worse, some seem to have the notion that a nonLDS person (or ancient equivalent) can still inherit the Celestial. But a more careful reading of D&C 76 actually seems to show that only LDS will inherit the Celestial AND the Terrestial. Good Christians and other good nonLDS people will inherit the Telestial along with the wicked redeemed from hell (D&C 76:99-101). I'd say the reason for that is because by not accepting the Gospel as preached by the LDS Church, one has not improved one's estate and spiritually are no more advanced than those who spent a stint being punished in hell for their wickedness.

Couple of problems with your "strict" interpretation here.

1. It's not LDS doctrine. LDS Doctrine incorporates ALL of God's Word on the subject.

2. LDS Doctrine specifically states that "anyone" can make the Celestial Kingdom, if they are worthy and ultimately accept Christ.

3. You don't address what it means to "know" per D&C 76, for I gave an example of myself of having left the Church and not believed.

4. You also don't address the fact that most will end up "becoming LDS" in the Spirit World.

5. You also seem to forget that the Final Judgment is not based on if one is LDS or not, but based on their Fruits and heart. Thus, non-LDS IN LIFE CAN most certainly make the Celestial Kingdom if they are worthy.

I know you wish to make an "strict" interpretation of D&C 76, but you would be wrong.

Update: Reading further you then seem to claim that non-LDS "can" make the Celestial Kingdom?

Cal and Mark have mentioned "poor" argumentation, and I would agree. I think you need to clarify your statements better. Saying "LDS" can make the Celestial Kingdom wouldn't be the best usage. Further, you never explained that previously in relation to your comments of D&C 76, that non-LDS would ultimately become LDS. You made it seem that all non-LDS in this life or the next won't make the Celestial Kingdom? So which do you actually believe?

If you are believing as we all know to be doctrine, then you might wish to be more "clear", cause I think I've seen you do this before on this subject.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Actually, an FYI in case someone else didn't mention it..... You're mixing story's of who left the Church.

Oliver Cowdery was one of those that came back into full fellowship, having repented fully accepting the Church and the Prophet.

Are you sure, if that is the case then I apologize but I am pretty sure he never returned to the Church after he left.

I looked it up online Cowdery was excommunicated in 1838 and but did return to the Church in 1848, he never held a high leadership role though.

I apologize for this mistake, Cowdery did return after Joseph's death.

My mistake I must of confused him with someone else, maybe Martin Harris?

Added by Edit: It isn't Harris either he rejoined in 1870! This is going to bug me!

Well the point still is that both men never denied the truth of the restored Gospel they just doubted Joseph at times and renounced him as Prophet.

[Calm]

Are you sure, if that is the case then I apologize but I am pretty sure he never returned to the Church after he left.

I looked it up online Cowdery was excommunicated in 1838 and but did return to the Church in 1848, he never held a high leadership role though.

I apologize for this mistake, Cowdery did return after Joseph's death.

My mistake I must of confused him with someone else, maybe Martin Harris?

Added by Edit: It isn't Harris either he rejoined in 1870! This is going to bug me!

Well the point still is that both men never denied the truth of the restored Gospel they just doubted Joseph at times and renounced him as Prophet.

David Whitmer.

I like this page about him: http://www.gapages.com/whitmd1.htm

[LDS Guy 1986]

David Whitmer.

I like this page about him: http://www.gapages.com/whitmd1.htm

Thanks! That was so annoying that I couldn't remember which of the three witnesses never returned!